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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 16:35:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Heh. You should definitely read my next novel, Eye of Justice.
I intend to read it
...if wizards makes it possible for me to buy it... like I intend to buy/read 'Shadowbane' once it is released in some form here in Germany
They're working on that. I plan to ask about it when I chat with them later this week.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 16:43:04
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Originally posted by Jakk
Okay... between me, Dennis, and Lirdolin, we've completely blown this thread off topic... although Lirdolin's Old Empires post was excellent. My apologies, Erik. 
That's ok, no worries. We're here to discuss and craft Realmslore. And that's what is going on.
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In the "One Canon, One Story, One Realms" scroll, there was a lot of talk about dragonborn and warforged. And eladrin, but that's a can of worms that's been well and truly emptied in that thread.
Yeah, pretty much. Best to think of "eladrin" as a mechanical term when applied to Realms elves. The creatures we know as "eladrin" from pre-4e still exist--they're just extremely powerful versions of the eladrin race in 4e. Basically, all these fey are the same--it's just a question of power level.
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The dragonborn and warforged are easy... just use the dragonborn that FR had before 4e, as Markustay has said many times before,
Well sure. The 4e dragonborn race mechanic is a great reflection for all the various different "dragon-men" in the Realms (and I count at least 4 different types). If you want to play a saurial, use the dragonborn race for your character build. If you want to play one of the dragonborn who came from Abeir, same thing. 4e basically finally opened the door to playing these dragon-blooded races equivalent with other PCs (i.e. without +2 to +4 level adjustment).
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and the warforged are creations of (Netheril/Narfell/Imaskar/insert long-fallen wizardly realm of your choice) if you want them to be ancient creations being recently rediscovered, or they're from (Halruaa/Thay/Shade/Deep Imaskar/Rashemen/Aglarond) if you want them to be newer in origin. They could even be from Myth Drannor... in either scenario. 
Don't forget gondsmen.
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I'm really starting to want to get some info from WotC on the "official" (such as they are atm) plans for the Realms... but we won't get that until the FRCG is published.
AFAIK, the official plans are still being formulated, so this discussion is very relevant. I suspect there will be "eye on the realms" preview articles leading up to the publication.
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After all, these are top-secret, high-tech WMDs we're dealing with, not just books about imaginary places.  You'd think that half of them used to work at the CIA or something... 
Wait, how did he figure that out? I mean . . . have you ever seen one of these? You just look in the little light here at the top . . .
[deneuralizer flash]
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 17:01:39
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Tell them to let me flesh-out the Fey - I already have a lexicon, amongst other things (history, etc). You may have followed some for that in other threads.
Hell, I'd go out and buy PS today just to do a map of Faerie if I got the okay.
Anyhow, we seriously need some more creator-lore, if just to mesh the newer stuff to the older (I've managed to blend some of the seems together in my musings).
For instance, there should be a temporally shielded library belonging to someone (some race), long forgotten, with the TRUE history of the world - before deities and Overgods erased certain things, and before several Elven High magic Rituals re-wrote huge swaths of it (damn Elves... think their so cool with their High Magic, and their make-out parties...)
Or maybe the Phaerimm (and Sharn?) exist 'outside of time' - they would have memories of things others do not (from defunct timelines). That would really help us fudge quite a bit of inconsistencies (like I keep saying, the tools to fix the Realms are built right into the lore). The Pharimm/Sharn (and others) could be like the El-Aurian from Star Trek - they "have an awareness that supersedes the normal flow of time and space" (Whoopi Goldberg's character Guinan was an El-Aurian).
Hmmmmm... El-Aurian... 
Its a conspiracy!!!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Mar 2012 17:04:43 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 17:04:06
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Originally posted by ESdB
Well sure. The 4e dragonborn race mechanic is a great reflection for all the various different "dragon-men" in the Realms (and I count at least 4 different types). If you want to play a saurial, use the dragonborn race for your character build. If you want to play one of the dragonborn who came from Abeir, same thing. 4e basically finally opened the door to playing these dragon-blooded races equivalent with other PCs (i.e. without +2 to +4 level adjustment).
I cannot agree with this. Saurial are something entirely different than Dragonborn (Draconian, 1/2 Dragon, whatever.) |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 05 Mar 2012 17:05:05 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 17:14:47
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Yes, they are different, but why do we need separate mechanics for very single race?
Use the dragonborn as a springboard to build your saurial - you don't need to create them whole-cloth.
In much the same way that Elves, dwarves, and Halflings aren't human, and yet much the same mechanics can apply to all of them.
Create a core race called dragonborn (I'd call it a reptiloid or some-such, but I think Dragonborn is set in stone now), and have lots and lots of variety from that core mechanic. Simple DDi articles can make the changes (mostly cosmetic, with a power-tweak here and there).
What is this need to constantly create brand-new mechanics for every single concept? Thats what drove 3e into the ground. D&D will never be a stable, finished ruleset, so long as people want different stats for different colored squirrels!
Like about a month ago, when someone told me (here) that a Steppe Tiger is NOT a Red Tiger from The North. Well... Uh-Duh! I KNOW that! But I don't need separate stats for the two.
5e plans on separating the rules from the setting, and I can only say "God bless 'em!" Its about time - we don't need a need a set of mechanics for every little incremental difference. It makes the game unplayable. There was time when dragon Magazine was for that kind of thing - options that individual groups could use or ignore. Why must EVERYTHING be official? Give me one, simple 'official', and then a gazillion options.
Players shouldn't decide what splats to use for their uber-builds; that power needs to be put back into DMs hands. If players want to 'be in charge', then they should be running their own damn campaigns.
By separating the rules from the settings, I think they might be able to accomplish this. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Mar 2012 17:18:00 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 17:36:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yes, they are different, but why do we need separate mechanics for very single race?
Use the dragonborn as a springboard to build your saurial - you don't need to create them whole-cloth.
Yep, that's what I'm saying. You can use the same mechanical chassis to create characters of multiple races, even if those races aren't closely related.
This is the elves vs. eladrin thing: the "elf" race provides sufficient mechanical basis for wood/wild elves, while the "eladrin" race provides the mechanics you need for moon/sun elves. Do we really need four entirely different races to represent these four things? Not really--you can create variation through use of feats, skills, and RP.
If you want more differentiation (and you probably do), create some Saurial specific feats/abilities. For instance, Saurials speak draconic (just like dragonborn), though specify that their voices are naturally pitched too high for most people to hear, and instead what most people get from them are smells they can learn to interpret (like Alias did with dragonbait). You can turn the base race's dragon breath (or better yet, the fear aura they can take as an alternative to dragon breath) into a burst of one of these emotive smells, which can disorient enemies around them.
None of this is to suggest that the saurials and any other race/subrace are necessarily related or connected. We're only talking about using the mechanical tools that are there and reflavoring them to suit our purposes. This is one of the strengths of 4e, in which you are ENCOURAGED to modify the base flavor of any ability to fit your game.
(Though on that note, I do wonder if the saurial homeworld was indeed Abeir . . . Hmm . . .)
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lirdolin
Learned Scribe
Germany
198 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 19:39:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
(Though on that note, I do wonder if the saurial homeworld was indeed Abeir . . . Hmm . . .)
Absolutly, they hail from Abeir's version of Chult, were they live in tribes or in one case a huge city. Where Toril-Chult's human natives are hunted by dinosaurs, Abeir-Chults saurials are preyed upon by jungel giants  |
Edited by - Lirdolin on 05 Mar 2012 19:40:41 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 00:59:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
(Though on that note, I do wonder if the saurial homeworld was indeed Abeir . . . Hmm . . .)
I do like this idea, but, unless we're looking at a retcon for the saurial homeworld, and judging from what little we do know about it, we can only assume that it really couldn't have been Abeir.
The saurials were brought to Faerûn as slaves by the god Moander. And, as I recall, it was also said that they came from "another world in another Material Plane." Which, I suppose, means OUTSIDE of Realmspace, whereas Abeir exists within the same Material Plane as Toril.
Additionally, the previous lore on the saurials states that they worshipped an alternate pantheon of gods, and, only after their arrival on Toril, did they convert to the worship of equivalent deities in Faerûn.
So far as I know, deities aren't exactly prominent on Abeir. Therefore, unless the saurials worshipped the Primordials of Abeir, the previous edition reference that the saurials came from another world, still holds some validity in the current post-Spellplague era, given the pantheon tidbit I noted above. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 01:54:44
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I don't think any of that isn't reconcilable. IIRC, Elminster fought some funky, feathered dragons in that world, and powerful dragon-types seems to be something of a vibe for Abeir.
In older lore, you could reach ANY world - even ones normally unreachable by normal means (PS/SJ) - through the Plane of Shadows (anywhere shadows touch, the plane of shadows reaches). Since Moander spent some 'time dead', I can see him discovering certain things that weren't meant to be found (like Finder, for instance). If Realmspace's Shadowplane reached into the pocket-region Abeir was stashed in, then it could work. His somewhat unique quasi-dead status may have allowed him to 'see the unseeable'.
As for the Saurial gods - we know nothing about them, which makes it all work. Saurials on Abeir may have worshiped primordials, or Dragon-Kings (demi-powers) similar to those found in DS/Athas. Considering the differences in Dragonbait's abilites, its fairly easy to fudge things and say those abilities are generated internally (through religious zeal), and not provided by the divine at all.
Add in my HB lore that the Saurials are just other branches of the 'Sauroid Creator Race' (along with the Sarrukh), and its pure win. The Saurials in Malatra (canon) have always been there, so there has to be some ancient connection between those creatures and Abeir-Toril (in other words, they all lived together on the pre-sundered world).
The Saurials were just brought home. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2012 01:56:44 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 02:15:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In older lore, you could reach ANY world - even ones normally unreachable by normal means (PS/SJ) - through the Plane of Shadows (anywhere shadows touch, the plane of shadows reaches). Since Moander spent some 'time dead', I can see him discovering certain things that weren't meant to be found (like Finder, for instance). If Realmspace's Shadowplane reached into the pocket-region Abeir was stashed in, then it could work. His somewhat unique quasi-dead status may have allowed him to 'see the unseeable'.
Hmmm. Kind of like Death, from 3e RAVENLOFT, in that it could see "worlds" beyond the veil of the Demiplane of Dread, thanks to the unique nature of its shared existence between the worlds of the living and the dead.
quote:
As for the Saurial gods - we know nothing about them, which makes it all work. Saurials on Abeir may have worshiped primordials, or Dragon-Kings (demi-powers) similar to those found in DS/Athas.
If we go with this path [which I'm not entirely disliking, BTW], I'd prefer to suggest that the saurials worshipped racially-divined derivatives of the primordials -- in that, these derivatives were closer to the classic interpretation of gods, than primordials.
At least we're still keeping, slightly, with previous lore. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 02:46:22
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They could have been god-heroes - something along the lines of what Mystara had (Immortals). We could call them anything, but considering how little we know about Abeir, and even less about the Saurial World, its a pretty easy leap to make, without rocking the boat over-much.
My idea of making Athas Abeir would have required a lot of tweaking, but this, not nearly so much.
I'd rather they reach back through the timeline and 'find' other connections as well (it helps solidify Abeir's place in Realmslore). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 15:15:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They could have been god-heroes - something along the lines of what Mystara had (Immortals). We could call them anything, but considering how little we know about Abeir, and even less about the Saurial World, its a pretty easy leap to make, without rocking the boat over-much.
My idea of making Athas Abeir would have required a lot of tweaking, but this, not nearly so much.
I'd rather they reach back through the timeline and 'find' other connections as well (it helps solidify Abeir's place in Realmslore).
It is possible the Saurials came from Abeir. We only know that Abeir was a smaller twin of Toril after the split. So, they could be from an entirely different area. The same way the Philippines is on the other side of our globe. Also, it is even conceivable the gods they worshiped were indeed gods. Take the four primordials (Akadi,Grumbar,Istisha, Kossuth) who chose to stay behind on Toril. They were considered gods right until the Spellplague. And chances are they are still considered gods by most of the populace. Unless they directly told their worshipers “Hey we aren’t gods…” So maybe on Abeir there were four gods who decided to stay behind and most of the populace treated them like primoridals. While the Saurials knew the truth. No one ever said a pantheon had to constitute at least ten different deities.
And why am I using 'so' so much...need more coffee. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 16:33:33
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We know so little about either, thats why I also thought Athas would work - the entire Tyr region (from the original box) fits perfectly in the Raurin - its tiny!
If we apply my idea of a world without axial tilt, then the equator would be a nigh-impassable inferno - the Burning lands (a concept I stole from Edgar Rice Burroughs.. I think... it was in my Atlas of Fantasy Maps, which I no longer have). So not only would we have the normal geographic restrictions on primitive cultures, but we'd also have a great way to have completely different people who never interact right on the same planet.
So picture a northern hemisphere, with human and human-like cultures (like what we see in Returned Abeir), and a southern hemisphere with dense, sweltering jungles (and saurials, and dinosaurs, etc), and 'no-mans land' between the two that only dragons can traverse. Heck, the Tyr-Region (Athas) could even be in that band of 'impassable' heat (The Forbidden Zone?)
A planet run by dragons, but ruled by primordials, and filled with strange beings with even stranger (psionic) abilites, all within fairly easy access from Faerun - thats what I am talking about for 5e!
They didn't need to change the Realms - they already gave us a 'brave new world' for a sandbox. They should treat Abeir the same way they were treating the feywild and Shadowfel in 4e - as a "place just around the corner, if you know where to look."
They can then dump any of the non-Fey/shadow adventures they produce into that world, and it becomes 'core' by default, so people using other settings can use them as well (precisely what they did with the Shadowfel/Feywild modules). The whole thing becomes one massive dungeon, and the Spellplague (and FR's fundamental nature) would allow gates everywhere - its the most convenient setup for DMs. You can travel a couple of miles from your base-camp and be in a dense jungle, or polar icecap, or the middle of a vast ocean, or desert, etc...
How about a new 'ancient tech' discovered for 5e - Batrachi Gates (which would look and work suspiciously like Stargates)? They would have been there all along, but hidden (invisible?), and the secret could be newly discovered. Just dial-in a locale and BAMF! Your on your way to adventure. Want to save a fairy Princess? Done! Fight a Dire-Dragon? Poof - you are in sweltering, primordial jungle filled with sauroids. Steal a Shadow-seed from an Umbraloth? Just dial-in the Shadowfel. Or jmaybe go to the aid of a Genasi village under attack by Dragonborn - Abeir here we come!
Or visit Krynn, or the Outlands, or Oerth, etc, etc... there would have to be some sort of mechanic that would limit what was carried, to keep these things from becoming huge trading-hubs. On the other hand, maybe make that story-based, so some would be controlled by trading costers and clandestine groups - that would add a whole 'nother level of play right there.
Use the lore to fix the lore; I think Ed had something like that in-mind for FR all along (The Road of Stars & Shadows). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2012 16:42:15 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 20:32:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
[quote]Additionally, the previous lore on the saurials states that they worshipped an alternate pantheon of gods, and, only after their arrival on Toril, did they convert to the worship of equivalent deities in Faerûn.
So far as I know, deities aren't exactly prominent on Abeir. Therefore, unless the saurials worshipped the Primordials of Abeir, the previous edition reference that the saurials came from another world, still holds some validity in the current post-Spellplague era, given the pantheon tidbit I noted above.
-Don't fall into the trap of semantics. For all intents and purposes, a 'Primordial' can and will be treated as a deity by mortals (Kossuth, and all of the other Primordials-retconned-from-deities), just like Archfey, Archelementals, Archdevils, Demonlords, Primus, and other highly powerful Outsiders are. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Lirdolin
Learned Scribe
Germany
198 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 21:32:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Additionally, the previous lore on the saurials states that they worshipped an alternate pantheon of gods, and, only after their arrival on Toril, did they convert to the worship of equivalent deities in Faerûn.
So far as I know, deities aren't exactly prominent on Abeir. Therefore, unless the saurials worshipped the Primordials of Abeir, the previous edition reference that the saurials came from another world, still holds some validity in the current post-Spellplague era, given the pantheon tidbit I noted above.
Deities are known on Abeir as Estelar who fought the Dawn Titans (primordials), see FRCG pg.200. As this name seems to be known even today it is not difficult to imagine, that Abeir 'needed' a set of divine beings to function, just like Toril retained it's score of Primordials. As the dawn titans were weakend enough to be brought low by the dragons it's probable that these few gods had little to nothing to fear from them. I would imagine, that Abeir's god's would regulate fundamental mechanics of the world that are not 'elemental' based: Love, Hate Magic, Good, Evil and so on. So Abeir's water 'god' is a neutral primordial, but they have a fickle chaotic evil sex-goddess who let's people fall in love on a whim, so procreation of the races is ensured .
And if the saurians revered a deity of justice and a goddess of Luck, then they might have been part of that pantheon too. |
Edited by - Lirdolin on 06 Mar 2012 21:33:48 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 01:31:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
[quote]Additionally, the previous lore on the saurials states that they worshipped an alternate pantheon of gods, and, only after their arrival on Toril, did they convert to the worship of equivalent deities in Faerûn.
So far as I know, deities aren't exactly prominent on Abeir. Therefore, unless the saurials worshipped the Primordials of Abeir, the previous edition reference that the saurials came from another world, still holds some validity in the current post-Spellplague era, given the pantheon tidbit I noted above.
-Don't fall into the trap of semantics. For all intents and purposes, a 'Primordial' can and will be treated as a deity by mortals (Kossuth, and all of the other Primordials-retconned-from-deities), just like Archfey, Archelementals, Archdevils, Demonlords, Primus, and other highly powerful Outsiders are.
It's not really an issue of semantics, but, rather, looking at the perception of deities and primordials from the perspective of the saurials.
Unless we're introduced to new lore that suggests otherwise, I'm inclined to assume that the saurials can tell the difference between divine deities and elemental "deities," like primordials. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 01:40:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Additionally, the previous lore on the saurials states that they worshipped an alternate pantheon of gods, and, only after their arrival on Toril, did they convert to the worship of equivalent deities in Faerûn.
So far as I know, deities aren't exactly prominent on Abeir. Therefore, unless the saurials worshipped the Primordials of Abeir, the previous edition reference that the saurials came from another world, still holds some validity in the current post-Spellplague era, given the pantheon tidbit I noted above.
Deities are known on Abeir as Estelar who fought the Dawn Titans (primordials), see FRCG pg.200.
True. But we're also told that these references to ancient deities are secrets locked in the past history of Abeir. I wouldn't expect the saurials would immediately have access to such knowledge, especially when we're specifically told that only a handful of humans have any knowledge of these events. And this was long before the primordials became ensconced as the primary higher-level powers on Abeir.
So unless the saurials were worshipping the pantheon that held Estelar as one of it's members, and also possessed the knowledge required for knowing of this ancient and lost pantheon of gods, it's still a vague possibility that this could suggest saurials coming from Abeir.
...
Interestingly, I'd entertain the likelihood that the saurials perhaps transitioned their belief system to primordials of similar guises and powers to those of the deities they once worshipped, especially after the primordials achieved dominance on Abeir.
Or, alternatively, perhaps Abeir was merely one planetary stop among several for the plane-hopping saurials. Maybe what we know of their original homeworld still remains the same, but they were either later transposed or journeyed to Abeir, before again being lifted from Abeir by Moander and planted on Toril. [I'll admit, that's stretching things even further, but for whatever reason, I enjoy tinkering with saurial origins.] |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 01:51:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It's not really an issue of semantics, but, rather, looking at the perception of deities and primordials from the perspective of the saurials.
Unless we're introduced to new lore that suggests otherwise, I'm inclined to assume that the saurials can tell the difference between divine deities and elemental "deities," like primordials.
-What's the functional difference between the two, 'deities' and 'primordials', to a mortal worshiping them? Where was the difference for X amount of years in-setting, where priests and priestesses of Akadi were invoking her as a 'deity'? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 02:06:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It's not really an issue of semantics, but, rather, looking at the perception of deities and primordials from the perspective of the saurials.
Unless we're introduced to new lore that suggests otherwise, I'm inclined to assume that the saurials can tell the difference between divine deities and elemental "deities," like primordials.
-What's the functional difference between the two, 'deities' and 'primordials', to a mortal worshiping them?
That would depend on how you play them, I suppose.
Deities traditionally tend to have divine/celestial/otherworldly aspects to their personaes, while primordials tend to feel more grounded in the firmament of hard-earth reality.
I suppose the argument could be made that being of an "earthy-racial type" themselves, the saurials have more affinity for primordials, than they have for investing their religious interest in otherworldly entities. Perhaps they perceive the primordials as having a special relationship with the land and the world they inhabit, like the saurials, and see deities as something else entirely. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 02:07:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Or maybe the Phaerimm (and Sharn?) exist 'outside of time' - they would have memories of things others do not (from defunct timelines). That would really help us fudge quite a bit of inconsistencies (like I keep saying, the tools to fix the Realms are built right into the lore). The Pharimm/Sharn (and others) could be like the El-Aurian from Star Trek - they "have an awareness that supersedes the normal flow of time and space" (Whoopi Goldberg's character Guinan was an El-Aurian).
An interesting theory, but one I disagree. If the phaerimm were outside of 'time,' they should not have been affected by the magical storms brought about by the endless experiments of the Netherese. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 02:12:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
[quote]Additionally, the previous lore on the saurials states that they worshipped an alternate pantheon of gods, and, only after their arrival on Toril, did they convert to the worship of equivalent deities in Faerûn.
So far as I know, deities aren't exactly prominent on Abeir. Therefore, unless the saurials worshipped the Primordials of Abeir, the previous edition reference that the saurials came from another world, still holds some validity in the current post-Spellplague era, given the pantheon tidbit I noted above.
-Don't fall into the trap of semantics. For all intents and purposes, a 'Primordial' can and will be treated as a deity by mortals (Kossuth, and all of the other Primordials-retconned-from-deities), just like Archfey, Archelementals, Archdevils, Demonlords, Primus, and other highly powerful Outsiders are.
In The Haunted Lands trilogy, it was noted that Primordials are not exactly deities, but close to in power. I think it was a certain priest of Bane who said it to Cera, a cleric of Kossuth. So not all mortals think of primordials as deities, or at the very least, not the clerics of non-Primordial entities. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 19:27:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Deities traditionally tend to have divine/celestial/otherworldly aspects to their personaes, while primordials tend to feel more grounded in the firmament of hard-earth reality.
-Which could be said about numerous 'deities'. Chauntea is the very earth herself. Umberlee is the sea, and the storms. Auril is the snow and blizzards. Silvanus is nature. And many others. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 21:19:39
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I don't think any of the first three you just named are true deities.
Gods, yes, but deities? Doubtful....
IF a deity requires worship (which they do, even before Ao mandated their interaction), how can deities have existed prior to their being mortals to worship them? A deity, by its nature, is nothing without worship.
Primordials, on the other hand, require no worship. Their power is their own, and they neither help nor require mortals at all. Take away a deity's faithful, and it withers and dies - Primordials can exist forever in vacuum, without any outside forces interacting with it.
Primordials are independent. Deities are co-dependent. Ergo, Chauntea (as a deity) could not possibly have existed before there were 'people' to worship her.
Auril is the same being as The Queen of Air & Darkness (4e lore), so we know she is an archfey (and sister of Titania). I think Umberlee is another, and maybe the same 'sea god' mentioned in the 2e Spellbound box (pg.55), which would definitely point to a fey-connection for her as well.
Silvanus? An amalgam-deity borrowed from the Celts by the Romans (providing further proof for me that their was at least one group of ancient Romans in the Realms). He never seemed so much as representation of nature itself to me - he's more about farming and husbandry (civilized nature). I peg him as another archfey (Oberon?). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Mar 2012 02:58:18 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 01:23:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Deities traditionally tend to have divine/celestial/otherworldly aspects to their personaes, while primordials tend to feel more grounded in the firmament of hard-earth reality.
-Which could be said about numerous 'deities'. Chauntea is the very earth herself. Umberlee is the sea, and the storms. Auril is the snow and blizzards. Silvanus is nature. And many others.
That's true. But at the same time, that kind of mindset isn't as predominant as I'd imagine it would be for the primordials.
I'll also say that I'm not dismissing the notion that the saurials might have considered the primordials as deities. And I suppose the fact that deities weren't as prevalent on Abeir would make it more difficult for the saurials to distinguish any differences -- whatever they may be -- between the two divine groups.
Overall, though, I just like the notion that the saurials venerated the primordials as something distinctly different from that of deities. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 02:40:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't think any of the first three you just named are true deities.
-And yet, we know they are deities.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
IF a deity requires worship (which they do, even before Ao mandated their interaction), how can deities have existed prior to teir being mortals to worship them? A deity, by its nature, is nothing without worship.
Primordials, on the other hand, require no worship. Their power is their own, and they neither help nor require mortals at all. Take away a deity's faithful, and it withers and dies - Primordials can exist forever in vacuum, without any outside forces interacting with it.
-Worship is only one part of the total equation that a divinity draws their power from. We know various deities currently exist, or did exist, that received little-to-no worship (Shar and Selûne before there was anyone to worship them in the past, Ulitiu and Auppenser, more contemporarily, for example). If a deity holds a portfolio that is sufficiently 'powerful' (for a lack of better words), their continued existence is guaranteed by that portfolio.
-The equation can roughly be written as P = W(N x F) + Po1 + Po2..., where:
P= Power
W= Worship Base
N= Number (of worshipers)
F= Fervor (or worshipers)
Po= Portfolio |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 08 Mar 2012 02:40:59 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 02:54:21
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EDIT: (because Karsus posted before I posted the response below). You are going by past (1e/2e/3e) lore, much of which has been over-written by newer (4e) lore. People only thought those things were deities before.
____________________________________________________________________________
Thinking more on my last post, I have a slightly altered theory: ALL gods require a power-source, therefor Primordials cannot 'exist in a vacuum' (metaphorically speaking).
Deities are gods that have found a way to tap-into human faith (and non-human, in many cases). Primordials probably derive their energies from the elemental chaos - the primal soup of the universe itself. Like the deities, this is a two-way conduit, which is what makes them so much more alien (to us) then the deities are.
Ergo, all gods require some sort of 'cosmic power', and for each group it might be something different. For instance, Fiend-lords and Archfey may tap-into the Outer Planes themselves (each tapping into a different plane, aligned with their nature).
So now we must ask ourselves, do the beings plugged-into planes for power get their nature from the plane, or does the plane get its nature from the beings tapping it? Or, as in the case of the mortal/deity relationship, is it a two-way street, with both giving and taking (which helps us understand the sheer multitude of 'like' things in the universe).
So, like 4e characters, gods have power-sources, which would include all the planes, including the Prime. This might help explain some of the weirdness of the 4e lore (in regards to older lore) - do the four elemental lords have special exceptions because they are focused on one element? Suppose all the (other) Primordials were tapped-into the Elemental Maelstrom for power, and then the deities somehow (mortal belief?) distilled the elements from the chaos, first into the four prime elements, and then into the four Para-Elemental planes, and finally into the Eight Quasi-Elemental Planes. This may have been why the gods separated the chaos - to de-power the Primordials. The ones that chose to limit themselves to just one Element (or energy-type) were allowed to stay within the normal universe, but the rest were banished (once they were sufficiently weakened).
Ergo, in 4e, when the elemental planes all came crashing back together, the Primordials regained much of their lost power, and can now break-free of their prisons.
Its as good a theory as any. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Mar 2012 03:00:38 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 03:10:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT: (because Karsus posted before I posted the response below). You are going by past (1e/2e/3e) lore, much of which has been over-written by newer (4e) lore. People only thought those things were deities before.
-The 4e books did not change them; they are deities.
-And, from a mortal point of view, as I was discussing with Sage, if a mortal in 1,376 DR thought of [Inset Entity that was in 1e/2e/3e a 'Deity' and is now a 'Primordial'], the only major difference between that person worshiping [Inset Entity that was in 1e/2e/3e a 'Deity' and is now a 'Primordial'] and a person worshiping [Inset Entity that was in 1e/2e/3e a 'Deity' and is now a 'Primordial'] in 1,386 DR is semantics- semantics that, seemingly, are more metagame than anything else.
-Was not Bender worshiped as a deity despite being a bending unit? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Lirdolin
Learned Scribe
Germany
198 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2012 : 22:41:31
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Bringing together old and new Dragonborn
and
An Idea for Abeir's location after the Spellplague (bringing Maztica, Mulhorand and the nenthir Vale back into the game)
‘Dragonborn’ Races of the Realms
Dragonborn of Abeir
The dragonborn of Abeir are an ancient race, hateful of their draconic progenitors and the dawn titans. Due to intermingeling for millenia, their scales are no longer clearly divided into the colors of the metallic and chromatic dragons from whose essences they were once born due to the machinations of the Dawn Titans. Two large groups of abeiran dragonborn were brought to Toril during the Spellplague, the dragonborn of the ‘new’continent Laerakond and the dragonborn of Tymanther, whose lands smashed and effectivly replaced Unther.
Dragonborn of Toril
Toril’s native Dragonborn are a rather young species, only recently created during the years before the Spellplague by the gods Tiamat and Bahamut. First created by rituals from devote followers of the two draconic gods as warriors for the renewed Dragonfall War, they later bred true. They revere dragons as superior beings and their scales still match the alignments and colors of their ancestors, so a blue scaled dragonborn probably is an evil follower of Tiamat. The dragonborn still are most often found were their deity’s influence is strong, so there are still large groups found in Damara and in the ruins of Unther. Many have also flocked to the dragons ruling Murghôm.
Half-dragons
Half-dragons are the actual offspring of humanoids and dragons and appear to be of their humanoid parents race, but mixed with draconic features of it’s dragon parent. Half-Dragons are quite common in dragon-ruled lands of Abeir and Toril like or Murghôm the draconic domains of Laerakond and Abeir.
Saurials
Abeirs saurials live in a jungel that mirrors the landmass of Toril’s Chult, were they live in a tribal society, revering the Estelar, the gods of Abeir, among them a deity of Justice and a goddess of Luck. Their main rivals are the towering jungelgiants who hunt the saurials.
Toril’s saurials are divided into two main cultures and only the one from Kara-Tur’s Malatra jungels being actually native to Toril. The saurials of Faerûn were brought from Abeir by the god Moander during one of the smaller dimensional alignments of the two twin planets. Here they adapted by chosing divine patrons corresponding to their abeiran gods. During the Wailing Years these Saurials were driven from their hidden dale into the Underdark by Netheril.
Abeir-Toril
In the years before the Spellplague many scholars wondered about the origin of the word ‘Abeir’ before the name their planet Toril. Little did they know, that the double word described two worlds, both created by Ao that shared the same space in Realmspace but on two different dimensions. One he gave to the gods, the other to the primordials. But to function both worlds needed divine and primordial stewards, so Toril kept the primordial elemental ‘gods’, while Abeir had a few ‘Estelar’, gods who managed non-elemental portfolios like love, luck, justice, good and evil. Sometimes the barriers between these two worlds became thin, when the two worlds were in alignment. One such occasion was used by the dark god Moander to kidnap a tribe of saurials from Abeir. Disaster struck when the Spellplague hit Toril and the two planets happend to be in alignment and parts of the worlds exchanged places or destroyed each other. Ao rescued the two worlds by bringing the dimensions together again, but he hid Abeir on the opposit side of the sun, unseen by Toril. Only recently spelljammers have brought news of the ‘new’ planet within Realmspace and stranger yet reportthat the vanished lands of Maztica and Mulhorand can now be found there. Some adventurers also report that they have found an old gate that now connects these two worlds insted of it’s former destinations. They didn’t say where they found the gate, but it can probably found somewhere where the plantes merged, so maybe in Tymanther, Akanûl, High Imaskar or Laerakond.
Abeir’s best 'known' native continent is Shyr whose landmasses coresponds roughly to Toril’s Faerûn. Maztica replaced the continent of Laerakond, while Mulhorand destroyed the realm Telos when it appeared, Telos' primordial despote, Telos the Steeltyrant still missing but not missed. Besides humans dragonborn, dwarves and genasi are numerous races with elves, eladrin and uncorrupted jungel darkelves being a minority, although the Feywild started to connect to the new world when it appeared in Realmspace, so the fae races started to appear in Abeir in slighly greater numbers today. With the elven races came the whorship of Corellon and a well known center of estelar/god-whorship is found in Shyr's Nenthir Vale region, where the gods of Abeir are revered, but recent interlopers like Bane have already set up shop as well. Abeir has a moon similar to Selûne and also sports a second, smaller companion moon, but lacks the Tears of Selûne.
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Edited by - Lirdolin on 10 Mar 2012 05:46:49 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 16:05:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT: (because Karsus posted before I posted the response below). You are going by past (1e/2e/3e) lore, much of which has been over-written by newer (4e) lore. People only thought those things were deities before.
The 4e books did not change them; they are deities.
My point was, with what WotC did to the cosmology (stomped all over it), 'all bets are off'.
Bruce Cordell has already decided the 'king of the Catfish' (The Eldest) is more powerful then Ao; tomorrow he may decide that Ao was really a tangerine, and there is nothing we can do about it. When decisions are being made based on personal preferences, rather then '"whats good for the Realms", we can't count on ANYTHING being what it was in past lore.
They were deities... in 5e they could be asparagus. 
{Psssst... does that count as "creating Realmslore"?  } |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 17:42:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT: (because Karsus posted before I posted the response below). You are going by past (1e/2e/3e) lore, much of which has been over-written by newer (4e) lore. People only thought those things were deities before.
The 4e books did not change them; they are deities.
My point was, with what WotC did to the cosmology (stomped all over it), 'all bets are off'.
Bruce Cordell has already decided the 'king of the Catfish' (The Eldest) is more powerful then Ao; tomorrow he may decide that Ao was really a tangerine, and there is nothing we can do about it. When decisions are being made based on personal preferences, rather then '"whats good for the Realms", we can't count on ANYTHING being what it was in past lore.
They were deities... in 5e they could be asparagus.
{Psssst... does that count as "creating Realmslore"? }
Not if it's ad absurdem. :)
And the Eldest may be more powerful than Ao from a particular point of view under particular circumstances. I doubt Ao could beat him/her/it/them in the Far Realm, but the Eldest isn't nearly as powerful as Ao in the prime material realm.
In case we're not clear what "unreliable narrator" and "opinion/misinformation" means, let me make it clear: Not everything printed in a novel is canonically true.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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