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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 22:34:05
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
there has also been someone who disagreed with me on making it a footnote too....
but that is clear, the spellplague must be reduced to a footnote.
I disagree with making it a footnote, so it is not clear that that's the solution. If someone objects to something, saying it's in the past doesn't remove that which they object to.
no it is the clear thing to do to it. how its done is not so clear.
if its put in the lore part, and none of it is mentioned in the areas of toril or focused on as much it would have done better.
back when 4e realms was announce we all heard 10 years and then 100 years. imo, how the 4e frcg was written would have been fine IF it was ten years.
but no... we got blah blah blah suffered this way, that way, x way and even jay walked in the years following the spell plague. so why do I care that what happened to Silverymoon in the next 10 years following the spell plague 100 years after the event?
a foot note, it happened, we move on the scars are still there.
the history section of the setting book can detail the changes, but the locales should not focus on the changed over 100 years agon in the realms.
and see, there is someone out there who disagrees that it should be madea footnote.
just like there are alot of people out there who don't want it reconned to austa la byby and some who do want it retconned to austa la byby.
so the only visible compromises are:
foot note of some sorts
or
retcon how the spellplague worked when it struck a pc or npc and by that I mean change the explanation.
nobody is going to be pleased on 5e's changes to the realms and more so if it all ends up as a @#%@#%@#%@ boardgame
Retconning it out of existence, or going with alternate timelines, or rebooting the setting and starting over are all options that have been discussed -- so a footnote, while still an option, is not the clear choice. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 22:41:18
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iis the most viable of them.
retconning it away they already stated they would not do.
rebooting the setting would throw away alot of established lore, its not a viable choice either on te grounds that alot of good author's works would be invalidated.
sure its not crystal clear, but footnote along with the TOT etc is still the clearest choice.... even if you dont agree...
the only other one would be to move on with it........ |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 23:13:29
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
iis the most viable of them.
Your opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
retconning it away they already stated they would not do.
We were also promised that Sembia would be left alone. And we were told people didn't want a RSE for 3E, and then we had a flood of them, followed by the biggest RSE of them all for 4E. And we were told they were not working on 4E, while it was being playtested.
Things change, including personnel and the direction the company is moving in.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
rebooting the setting would throw away alot of established lore, its not a viable choice either on te grounds that alot of good author's works would be invalidated.
It could readily be argued that 4E did the same thing. We've had a lot of retcons since 3E came out, and each one of those invalidates someone else's work.
Besides, with a reboot, there's nothing that says some of the same things couldn't happen again.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
sure its not crystal clear, but footnote along with the TOT etc is still the clearest choice.... even if you dont agree...
It's not the clearest choice if you want to regain customers lost when 4E came out. If the Spellplague caused customers to leave the setting, charging on with it doesn't bring them back.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
the only other one would be to move on with it........
And moving on with it is different from footnoting it, how? |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 23:27:19
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OK, can we please, please have one scroll left alone so it's free of anti-Spellplague bias?
PLEASE?
This absolute unwillingness by some people to just let it go and move on is so incredibly tiresome. It's the #1 thing that makes Candlekeep a real drag to hang out in. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 26 Apr 2012 23:32:16 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 00:49:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
OK, can we please, please have one scroll left alone so it's free of anti-Spellplague bias?
PLEASE?
This absolute unwillingness by some people to just let it go and move on is so incredibly tiresome. It's the #1 thing that makes Candlekeep a real drag to hang out in.
First, the unwillingness to respect the opinions of others, especially in regards to the Spellplague debate, is far more of a drag.
Second, I'm not arguing about the Spellplague. I'm arguing that there is not any one clear choice. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 01:29:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The people of Toril can move on...And while the scars remain, in time they'll disappear as well.
I don't see it. Realms folks were still counting the costs of other grand events like the Time of Troubles and the Tuigan invasion years [and even decades] after those setting-shaping events.
quote:
Spellplague as footnote. Yes, you got it right.
I see that as disrespectful of all the good that has come from the Spellplague.
This attitude of reducing the Spellplague is nonsense, really. It's shaped so much of the 4e Realms, that to reduce it to a mere footnote is negating most, if not all, the cool stuff that has come from the Spellplague -- like Ed's awesome material on Returned Abeir, for example. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 01:30:44
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
but that is clear, the spellplague must be reduced to a footnote.
Again, I see this as inane nonsense. Why reduce such an element with such setting-development potential to a footnote, when it would be better to concentrate more fully on moulding it to fit the more traditional view of Realmslore that the majority of us love so much? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 01:47:41
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a foot note in the roll of years, isnt going to negate anything it would only be moving on from it.
the 3.x frcs didnt go mentioning the TOT and what not on every page.
and wooly you're right, it isnt the only clear choice but it is the most viable to me. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 01:58:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
First, the unwillingness to respect the opinions of others, especially in regards to the Spellplague debate, is far more of a drag.
Oh yes, if we disagree with you, that's a sure sign we don't respect your opinion. 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Second, I'm not arguing about the Spellplague. I'm arguing that there is not any one clear choice.
This thread is about One Canon, One Story, One Realms. It's not about retconning the Spellplague out of existence or creating alternate timelines or rebooting the setting and starting over, as you mentioned earlier.
While it's true all of these ideas have been discussed in other scrolls, it's also true they're not on topic for this scroll.
@SageI really don't think reducing the Spellplague to a mere footnote of history means people are also advocating that its effects be ignored. I don't have to go out on a limb to say sfdragon isn't calling for the removal of Returned Abeir.
In other words, the 5E Realms doesn't need a two page explanation about the Spellplague before you can start talking about Returned Abeir. Instead, just start talking about Returned Abeir. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 02:56:48
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If I'm still considered the master of this particular scroll, I'm invoking my scroll mastery to make three polite suggestions! 
1) Knock off the arguing. It's tiresome.
2) Don't disparage people for having opinions contrary to your own. If someone doesn't like the Spellplague, that's fine--if someone does, then great. That's not what we're discussing. We're talking about what DnD-Next should be, and if we go with my opinion, it should be inclusive, honor what has come before (from all editions), and not retcon anything.
3) This is NOT a thread to discuss the course of DnD-Next. There are other scrolls for that.
Thanks!
Sage + Jeremy + SFD: When I say "reduce to a footnote," I mean "make it a past tense event"--one that still has all kinds of effects on the modern Realms, but one that isn't an active thing that's still ongoing. The 5e FR should not focus on the Spellplague the way 4e FR (sort of) did. It should focus on the Realms entire.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 03:09:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
If I'm still considered the master of this particular scroll, I'm invoking my scroll mastery to make three polite suggestions!
1) Knock off the arguing. It's tiresome.
2) Don't disparage people for having opinions contrary to your own. If someone doesn't like the Spellplague, that's fine--if someone does, then great. That's not what we're discussing. We're talking about what DnD-Next should be, and if we go with my opinion, it should be inclusive, honor what has come before (from all editions), and not retcon anything.
3) This is NOT a thread to discuss the course of DnD-Next. There are other scrolls for that.
Thanks!
Sage + Jeremy + SFD: When I say "reduce to a footnote," I mean "make it a past tense event"--one that still has all kinds of effects on the modern Realms, but one that isn't an active thing that's still ongoing. The 5e FR should not focus on the Spellplague the way 4e FR (sort of) did. It should focus on the Realms entire.
Cheers
That's it!
This is also why I don't like getting involved in these discussions. And it's largely why I'm often always absent from them.
I apologise, Erik. I didn't mean to devalue the point some hold about making the Spellplague a footnote in Realms history. It's just my reflective nature about how we've seen so much of even the [then] current Realms in 3e, still being shaped by the Godswar and the Tuigan Invasion. I'd expect the Spellplague to have the same effect well into the 5e Realms, regardless of how much time has past between the end of the 4e coverage of the setting, and the beginning year of the 5e Realms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 03:24:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
If I'm still considered the master of this particular scroll, I'm invoking my scroll mastery to make three polite suggestions!
1) Knock off the arguing. It's tiresome.
2) Don't disparage people for having opinions contrary to your own. If someone doesn't like the Spellplague, that's fine--if someone does, then great. That's not what we're discussing. We're talking about what DnD-Next should be, and if we go with my opinion, it should be inclusive, honor what has come before (from all editions), and not retcon anything.
3) This is NOT a thread to discuss the course of DnD-Next. There are other scrolls for that.
Thanks!
Sage + Jeremy + SFD: When I say "reduce to a footnote," I mean "make it a past tense event"--one that still has all kinds of effects on the modern Realms, but one that isn't an active thing that's still ongoing. The 5e FR should not focus on the Spellplague the way 4e FR (sort of) did. It should focus on the Realms entire.
Cheers
that was pretty much what I meant too. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4496 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 04:07:15
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My two zhents: If Ed Greenwood still plays in pre-Spellplague Realms without a problem or even having the in-game knowledge of things that might come to pass and STILL has fun, then what's the big deal?
I don't think the D&D:Next version of the Realms needs to fawn over the Spellplague or reduce it to a small 3x3 box in the beginning few pages either. What it needs to do is address that it's an even that happend and you (as a player or DM) can play in an era where it's very prominent for that campaign and BAM here's some ground-work or here is a place to find additional ground-work. But if you've decided NOT to use the Spellplague, that's OK too. Same goes with any major event in the Realms like the Return of Shade, the Time of Troubles, the Crown Wars, the fall of Netheril, etc.
Basically, the Spellplague should stay if anything to keep the Realms continunity somewhat on point. If something other than keeping it Canon happens, I'd not take the Realms seriously in any way, shape, or form. But again, this is my own personal opinion so of course I'm hoping the Realms take a shape I enjoy over something that I wouldn't. That hope extends to those who are officially shaping the Realms in a realization that they'll see the merits of a non-specific "start date" and just make a whole Realms campaign setting with everything thrown in. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 05:36:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
First, the unwillingness to respect the opinions of others, especially in regards to the Spellplague debate, is far more of a drag.
Oh yes, if we disagree with you, that's a sure sign we don't respect your opinion.
Check your PM.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 06:34:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
My two zhents: If Ed Greenwood still plays in pre-Spellplague Realms without a problem or even having the in-game knowledge of things that might come to pass and STILL has fun, then what's the big deal?
This has been dealt-with NUMEROUS times, by myself, Lord karsus, and dozens of others.
Not all the FR fans play D&D. In fact, I'd bet MOST FR fans don't play the game. The Forgotten Realms novels have broken into 'the mainstream' (thanks mostly to RAS), and D&D is STILL a niche hobby.
Yes, the canon and era of the setting should not EVER effect our games, and for most of us, it doesn't. HOWEVER, that canon is still in-place when we read the novels - we cannot just hand-wave that. How are we supposed to ignore the Spellpague, when we are continually being slapped across the face with it?
So, for our D&Ding, we can do what we want, but until they bring back those 'make your own ending' books, we have no choice but be forced to 'enjoy' the era the novels are set-in.
And even if some are set in the past, knowing the future ruins them for many of us. Thats the problem - NOT D&D, the setting, because that is what this damn site is about - THE FORGOTTEN REALMS.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
This attitude of reducing the Spellplague is nonsense, really. It's shaped so much of the 4e Realms, that to reduce it to a mere footnote is negating most, if not all, the cool stuff that has come from the Spellplague -- like Ed's awesome material on Returned Abeir, for example.
While I agree with you in spirit, I must respectfully disagree on Abeir.
Not that it isn't one of the best parts of 4eFR, but how many folks are really using it? How many novels have been set there?
Filet mignon is delicious, and I am sure a filet mignon on Mars would also be delicious.... but so what? We're never going to taste it, so it might as well not exist.
This post was heavily edited - both parts. I am really trying to respect Erik's wishes here. Can we please stick to subject of the thread - THE FORGOTTEN REALMS (which also just happens to be THE subject of this site as well). I am getting really tired of all the 5e talk leading back to D&D - its a strawman argument. The setting is the setting, and we can 'pretend' all we want, but it doesn't change the setting at all - thats set in stone. D&D is pretend - PUBLISHED FR material is not, and that can only be changed by paid employees of WotC. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Apr 2012 06:36:06 |
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 06:49:29
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| The Spellplague happened, but it doesn't have to be a huge issue. And I believe there is a scroll in the library here that has the story of what happened to cause the Spellplague. It details that there are now two Torils, one with the cursed 'Plague and one without. So, can we please stop talking about whether we'd have the Spellplague or not in the next version of the Realms? |
"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell
Please forgive any spelling and grammer errors, as my android touch-screen phone has no spellchecker. If I do make a grammer mistake, please let me know and I'll try to fix it.
New laptop, still trying to sort my "scrolls" on its shelves...and when will this cursed thing stop doing things I tell it not to? |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4266 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 16:23:11
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When the Old Grey Box came out...there was no base for any argument, because it is what came first.
I had a bit of a vision earlier this morning:
When I was a teenager and loving the Forgotten Realms, I dreaded becoming 20 and growing up. I just didn't want to NOT be a teen; and I think it was because I didn't want responsibility maybe.
I didn't want to be 30, but it came and went...it faded into the past and some of my fondest memories are of when I was in my 30s, just now gone.
I DREADED the thought of being 40...I convinced myself early in life that being 40 was OLD...but I'm 40 now, and I don't feel a damn bit different than when I was younger...I'm just older now.
I often fear 50 at times, but I'm starting to understand now in life that it is just going to happen. It doesn't invalidate all the awesome experiences I've had in life if I turn 50 and can't "Wind Surf" on the hood of my car anymore while my friend drives down the road like I did when I was a teenager. I'm sure my life at 50 will still be great...
And so, I've played AD&D in the Old Grey Box. I've played 2nd Ed AD&D in the Forgotten Realms and lived through the Dead Magic zones and Gods walking the world. I've played 3/3.5 and seen my characters lose levels that they earned before so that they could fit into a new mold of magic. I've seen 4e come and withdrawn somewhat from the world, though I still enjoy talking about it and wondering about how things used to be. And now 5e is coming, and I'm sure I will still fondly think on the Forgotten Realms when it gets here...I may even "get back in the game" if I enjoy it.
I dunno...but the two things (my aging and the editions of D&D) seem similar in ways...and if I've lived through my real life, I think I'll survive through my fantasy life.
You either stay engaged and go through it, or you pull back and fade away. Not much anyone can do about the past...it is all in how we remember/record it. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 16:41:01
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if you meant ''leave things basically as they are and just move on with them'' then it'd be equivalent to saying that there's no problem at all.
While when you get 50 you won't have the possibility of experimenting some feelings of the 20s and you won't be able to do anything about it, being the Realms just fantasy, it should be possible (or at least I guess so) to modify them to give the ''feeling of the Realms'' to the people who were turned away by 4e, without destroying them for the new fans.
And when I say modify the Realms, I mean the current era (which, for what I've understood, is one of the purposes of this topic) and not just giving additional info about the past because, for the reasons many people stated in previous posts, it wouldn't solve much (and because the old fans, who have the older sourcebooks, wouldn't have many reasons to buy the new ones which cover all eras, with basically the same information about what they're interested in). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Apr 2012 17:51:00 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4266 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 18:17:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if you meant ''leave things basically as they are and just move on with them'' then it'd be equivalent to saying that there's no problem at all.
While when you get 50 you won't have the possibility of experimenting some feelings of the 20s and you won't be able to do anything about it, being the Realms just fantasy, it should be possible (or at least I guess so) to modify them to give the ''feeling of the Realms'' to the people who were turned away by 4e, without destroying them for the new fans.
And when I say modify the Realms, I mean the current era (which, for what I've understood, is one of the purposes of this topic) and not just giving additional info about the past because, for the reasons many people stated in previous posts, it wouldn't solve much (and because the old fans, who have the older sourcebooks, wouldn't have many reasons to buy the new ones which cover all eras, with basically the same information about what they're interested in).
If you were talking to me...no.
I'm not saying leave it alone...I'm saying everyone will live.
As a historical occurance, the Spellplague should be noted; and there may be creatures/individuals that are still around because of it (just like I'm around now with heart surgery)...just as there might still be areas of dead magic in the world (just like I have dead brain cells because of booze!)...just as there are Dwarves that are wizards now (just as planes fly in the air now when they once didn't)...just as halflings are skinny and not fat (just like I'm fat and not skinny now)...
Things will change, often drastically (I'm sure many Native Americans don't much like that the lands they once dwelled upon are now "owned" instead of free for all)...but in essence, it is still going to be there.
I've over-reacted on a couple of points recently...even been furious; but my feelings are like chaos sometimes. So while I HATE that the Drow are going to so influence the world soon; I have to live with it in the Realms just like I have to live with the fact that Chinese goods now so dominate.
It just is... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 18:53:04
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Of course events will influence the world -fantasy, or real- and things will change according to them.
However, while RW happenings are often irreversible imaginary ones are not.
I don't think that what attracted some people to the Realms can exist only in the past of the setting and only be remembered. It could coexist with the new lore that lured other people.
Saying that some things were in the past, now other things have come and the older are lost and only vestiges of them can remain seems a bit too definitive to me when it comes to an imaginary world. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3768 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 18:54:17
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-I think a good way to minimize the impact of the Spellplague (and the 104 year time jump) without directly minimizing it and/or ignoring it outright is for the novel line- and possibly adventure line, via the online things WotC has- to start focusing/paying more attention to characters, events, plotlines and various other things that never fully received cloture before 2008 or whenever.
-If, for example, a novel took place in some place that was radically changed by the Spellplague, if the focus is on the Crown of Horns, or Qyasar Shoon VII, or whatever/whoever else, only "half" of our attention is focused on the novel being set somewhere that we might not like because of the changes to it. This is the reason I picked up Mark Sehestedt's Fall of Highwatch novel. I wasn't too particularly interested in seeing what the area was like in 1,479 DR, or whatever, but I was interested in learning more about the Eastern Lythari. Paul Kemp's new book series, focusing on the aftermath of the Twilight War trilogy, same thing- those are books I probably will want to pick up simply because I want to learn about what happened to all of those characters. A book set in a place that changed in a way I didn't particularly like, with characters who I don't know? I can pass very easily. A book set in a place that changed in a way I didn't particularly like, with characters I know and like, or a plot line picked up from some other WotC source? Alright, I'm interested, at the very least.
-Given that novels give WotC so much space to establish lore, I can see them wanting to focus on new characters, new stories, and filling in the gaps of the new Forgotten Realms. At the same time though, such a strategy leaves little interest for those that don't particularly like the changes that took place in whole, or in the region(s) the book is set. Highlighting characters/plotlines/whatever of old hooks those who might not be thrilled back in. When I bought Fall of Highwatch, I said to myself, "What the hell? I'll give it a try. It'll answer questions I already have, and maybe I'll like some of the new stuff."
-Made me think of fishing just now, actually. The product itself is the hook, but if there was tantalizing bait on it, more fish would be biting than just the fish that have the propensity to bite random hooks floating in the water without juicy wiggling worms. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 27 Apr 2012 18:56:41 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 19:06:52
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Hmph.
Weird - I think I may feel the exact opposite. A 4e novel set in a place I know, with characters I knew makes me uncomfortable, but a 4e novel set someplace I know little about, about entirely new characters I can abide.
The glaring changes to the Realms doesn't affect me as much when it is about stuff I had no prior knowledge of, and I find those sort of novels enjoyable (for instance, Rich Baker's Blades of the Moonsea, except for the small bits about Zhentil Keep, which I didn't mind).
I don't know - I guess I just feel that some stories 'pick at the scab' of the edition wars more then others. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3768 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 19:59:51
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-What impetus do you have for buying a book on...Amn, if going in, you read the FRCG/PG and didn't like what was done there? If the story is completely original (doesn't tie back to anything particularly compelling that was written into the world beforehand, features completely original characters who don't have specific ties to anything particularly compelling that was written into the world beforehand, and so on), not much, other than the sense of wonder. If the setting/subject matter is something that you don't like going in, nothing is attracting you to buy the book. If the story features those above things, you're generally more apt to pick it up- your interest shifts more from morbid curiosity to genuine interest. Note, this applies more for things that you are more inclined to be disinterested in, having read the FRCG/PG. If the book is featuring stuff you like to begin with, you'd obviously be inclined to pick it up with or without all the stuff mentioned above. Would you be interested in a book that is set in some place that has been fairly radically altered, has a plotline or characters that may or may not be interesting, but doesn't really feel connected to the Forgotten Realms you knew, and so on? For that, you can always simply pick up a random book in the fantasy section (most of which sucks, neither here nor there) and save yourself the agita if, upon picking up that Forgotten Realms book, you start saying to yourself, "Ugh, how could they do this to X!"
-That's not to say that every single little character and plot should be picked up and transplanted in 4e or anything. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1305 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 20:34:43
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Thinking about it, the time jump is what killed it for me even more than the unnecessary RSE#1509350159. No idea why they skipped 100 years ahead. It totally makes it feel like a different setting; one I don't care anything about. Killing Mystra, changing magic? Sure why not, been there/done that, have the t-shirt from the last 2 times you did it (golf clap on originality). The time skip is what killed it more than the event itself. I wish they had just done their RSE and left the time alone.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4496 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 21:22:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Thinking about it, the time jump is what killed it for me even more than the unnecessary RSE#1509350159. No idea why they skipped 100 years ahead. It totally makes it feel like a different setting; one I don't care anything about. Killing Mystra, changing magic? Sure why not, been there/done that, have the t-shirt from the last 2 times you did it (golf clap on originality). The time skip is what killed it more than the event itself. I wish they had just done their RSE and left the time alone.
To answer the bolded part, there were a few reasons why they went as far as they did. For starters, it was an attempt to introduce the Spellplague and at the same time, weave it into the backdrop of the setting so that it appeared like people living on Toril had a good graps of that situation and the effects there after. Sort of how we (those of us living in 2012) view the events of WWII, a distant past with few ramifications that are present today.
Another reason was to give authors a TON of room to write stories and articles based in the Realms that didn't necessarily HAVE to conform to older Lore. If something had changed between a 4E product and a previous editions product (the location of a Bar/Store in Waterdeep, the names or location of establishments, etc. then a simple "Well, it's 104 years in the future, of course things change" response was much easier given.
A 3rd reason was to separate campaigns, ones that were currently being played in older era (1375 for example using 3.5E) so that you could write off your character's history in the 'record books' so to speak, and begin again with a new host of characters with brand new adventures. Bascially it was a way for them NOT to have to come up with a Conversion guide right from the get-go.
While I agree with the time jump for those reasons, I don't think it did a great service to the Realms by then requiring all published material from that point forward to remain IN the 1479-there abouts Realms. Had they allowed writers to finish up great projects and stories of heroes we've grown to love, I don't think it would've been as bad a blow as it was. We might have received that book from Elaine about Arylin for example.
Hopefully this time around, they don't try to "FIT" this new installment of D&D/Forgotten Realms into a specific timeline and open it up for players to use whatever era they want AND support that choice via rules in their core D&D products. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8068 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 21:39:18
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Star Trek: The Next Generation also moved the setting about a century ahead, killing off many interesting ST:TOS characters in the process. Though fans still argue even today about which series and which captain was better it is nonetheless unquestionably accepted as canon. The creators and the fans have easily accomodated a number of subsequent movies and entire series which build from the "timejumped" ST:TNG canon initially rejected by many fans. It's interesting that a similar arrangement for Realms canon seems so difficult to accomodate, and it seems ever more apparent that the fault rests more squarely on segments of the fanbase than on the current authors.
It's also interesting that Star Trek has even magically included popular characters (like Spock and Scotty) who by all normal expectations and standards should, after so many years, be long dead and buried. Their presence (and so many other things) are disguised behind treknobabble and clever pseudoscientific sophistications ... but in the end it's basically just "magic", a way for something fantastic to impossibly defy the "real" scientific rules which govern our universe. So why so much resistance accepting counterparts of these popular characters (like Drizzt and Elminster) in a magic-rich pure fantasy setting like the modern Realms? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Apr 2012 21:46:37 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 22:19:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Star Trek: The Next Generation also moved the setting about a century ahead, killing off many interesting ST:TOS characters in the process. Though fans still argue even today about which series and which captain was better it is nonetheless unquestionably accepted as canon. The creators and the fans have easily accomodated a number of subsequent movies and entire series which build from the "timejumped" ST:TNG canon initially rejected by many fans. It's interesting that a similar arrangement for Realms canon seems so difficult to accomodate, and it seems ever more apparent that the fault rests more squarely on segments of the fanbase than on the current authors.
Not a valid comparison -- elements of the Star Trek universe didn't change during the timejump. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4496 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 23:31:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Star Trek: The Next Generation also moved the setting about a century ahead, killing off many interesting ST:TOS characters in the process. Though fans still argue even today about which series and which captain was better it is nonetheless unquestionably accepted as canon. The creators and the fans have easily accomodated a number of subsequent movies and entire series which build from the "timejumped" ST:TNG canon initially rejected by many fans. It's interesting that a similar arrangement for Realms canon seems so difficult to accomodate, and it seems ever more apparent that the fault rests more squarely on segments of the fanbase than on the current authors.
Not a valid comparison -- elements of the Star Trek universe didn't change during the timejump.
Even if they hadn't (and we're not going to bring up the events in the recent movie which says otherwise) the time jump was still pretty significant in terms of relations to other species in the galaxy, technology, and the Federation's own growing and expanse as a Space Nation (for lack of a better term). Those are pretty important factors to take into account when your talking about a setting such as Star Trek.
To relate this to the Realms: even if the Spellplague hadn't had happened and you still had some Chosen running around and a few more Gods to pray to, that wouldn't have had as much an impact at keeping what was similiar to the Realms prior to a time jump. Sembia probably would've been taken over by Shade as a "front". Tyr still would've killed Helm and then went off into the Hells to fight to his last breath. The Hathran would've still had their war with the Durthan. Abier still would've collided with Toril (unless I'm mistaken and this is tied to Mystra's death and the Weave collapsing?) AND you still would've have had a many NPCs as we were used to.
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Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2012 : 00:12:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Star Trek: The Next Generation also moved the setting about a century ahead, killing off many interesting ST:TOS characters in the process. Though fans still argue even today about which series and which captain was better it is nonetheless unquestionably accepted as canon. The creators and the fans have easily accomodated a number of subsequent movies and entire series which build from the "timejumped" ST:TNG canon initially rejected by many fans. It's interesting that a similar arrangement for Realms canon seems so difficult to accomodate, and it seems ever more apparent that the fault rests more squarely on segments of the fanbase than on the current authors.
Not a valid comparison -- elements of the Star Trek universe didn't change during the timejump.
Even if they hadn't (and we're not going to bring up the events in the recent movie which says otherwise) the time jump was still pretty significant in terms of relations to other species in the galaxy, technology, and the Federation's own growing and expanse as a Space Nation (for lack of a better term). Those are pretty important factors to take into account when your talking about a setting such as Star Trek.
To relate this to the Realms: even if the Spellplague hadn't had happened and you still had some Chosen running around and a few more Gods to pray to, that wouldn't have had as much an impact at keeping what was similiar to the Realms prior to a time jump. Sembia probably would've been taken over by Shade as a "front". Tyr still would've killed Helm and then went off into the Hells to fight to his last breath. The Hathran would've still had their war with the Durthan. Abier still would've collided with Toril (unless I'm mistaken and this is tied to Mystra's death and the Weave collapsing?) AND you still would've have had a many NPCs as we were used to.
The whole mix-and-match with Abeir was because of Mystra's death. |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2012 : 00:48:31
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Edit: posted accidentally, meant to be a PM.
Re-edit: some people have replied to it already so seems to be a bad idea to delete it, leaving the accident post up here.
Ok, so it's not bugging me that this phrase is completely untrue, it's just that it's so sad that this phrase is true that I have to laugh and then comment about it or else I'd get depressed about the future of the world(a world where we can so easily ignore the way the past has influenced the present).
WWII had enormous ramifications that are still an incredibly large part of the current state of the world. It's impossible not to see ripples from that war and the actions afterwards in world politics, many of the conflicts that followed that war, or our culture, science and technology, and other aspects of our society. Anyways, just wanted to point out that using WWII as an example for making the Spellplague a footnote that doesn't influence the modern Realms might not be exactly what you're looking for in an example.
WWII was a world shaking event(like the Spellplague was an RSE kinda) that continues to heavily influence the current world order, also a lot like the Spellplague turned out to be in the 4e Realms, anywhere you look in the world you can find ripples and even waves still made from WWII. I don't want to turn this into a lecture or anything with piles of specific examples. You're an intelligent, well written
poster and even when I disagree with you I at least always have to consider your points which are generally well presented. But since I do enjoy history and study it so couldn't leave this one statement alone, it's a pretty bad example to use as having an event become a footnote that doesn't influence the current world population daily.
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Edited by - idilippy on 29 Apr 2012 18:42:36 |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e)
Topic Locked
