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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 22:48:49
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I've never been ashamed of it, but I know those who are. The one time I didn't discuss my hobbies was the 30 days I spent as a "guest of the state" (a judge held me in contempt - most folk do  ) - even I know when to shut the hell up.
I can see I'm not just in the minority on this one, I'm alone, so I will completely concede the point. Besides, I hadn't thought about the issue Erik brought-up concerning Ed - that's a biggy.
I am surprised that the folks here at the keep would rather see 'The Forgotten Realms' completely disappear, rather then share it... mores the pity.
Once they remove the branding completely, we are faced with the other side of the coin - Ed controls NOTHING (since it is no longer FR, just 'all D&D'). He could fight it, of course, but I doubt he would; some battles aren't worth fighting - either way something is lost.
And sadly, if it ever did come down to a court battle, they could use all our posts as evidence against us - we've been saying for 3 years "4e isn't The Forgotten Realms", which could be interpretted as "it isn't the setting Ed sold to TSR". Hows that for kick-in-the-head?
@Jeremy - I'm not sure where you are from, but wherever it is, you have a nicer group of people where you are. However, I wouldn't take a group of folks at a comic, LGS, or bookstore, or at a scify or gamer con as "proof of acceptance". I'm sure if you put a bunch of cannibals in a room, they'd all agree eating people was a good thing as well. Also, the 'birds of a feather' thing tends to come into play - most people int the gamer-community have friends like them. I'd also throw in 'the college crowd', who are more educated, and therefor more accepting (I know of a couple of campus bars where you can meet girls who wouldn't mind D&D as well - I'm sure you weren't at a 'biker bar').
@Erik - It was different growing up in the 70's - believe you me.
And I DO use an inhaler, so I suppose I was the stereotype. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Apr 2012 22:53:33 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 23:18:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am surprised that the folks here at the keep would rather see 'The Forgotten Realms' completely disappear, rather then share it... mores the pity.
Quite the opposite. I for one want to see the Realms remain THE REALMS--its own distinct setting with the stories and flavor we have grown up with and love. And I don't think it's a sure thing that WotC is trying to remove branding from the Realms. As I understand it, they are changing course, and I hope you'll see a move away from that and back toward what the Realms should be.
quote:
Once they remove the branding completely, we are faced with the other side of the coin - Ed controls NOTHING (since it is no longer FR, just 'all D&D'). He could fight it, of course, but I doubt he would; some battles aren't worth fighting - either way something is lost.
As I said, I don't think that would happen. And I wouldn't want to speculate on the intricacies of Ed's contract or creative control. That is for him to discuss in his own way in his own time, or not--as the case may be. I only wanted to note that the Realms is a specific thing, defined by a contract.
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And sadly, if it ever did come down to a court battle, they could use all our posts as evidence against us - we've been saying for 3 years "4e isn't The Forgotten Realms", which could be interpretted as "it isn't the setting Ed sold to TSR". Hows that for kick-in-the-head?
The ramblings of some wackos on the internet doesn't qualify as legitimate evidence. (And yes, I heartily include myself in that definition!)
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@Erik - It was different growing up in the 70's - believe you me.
Oh, I definitely believe you. I grew up in the 90s, and it sucked back then too. But we shouldn't judge the cultural construct of the generation growing up today by outdated standards. Your experience has left a mark on you, just as mine has on me, because that's the way experience works. But I can assure you gamers are much more accepted and less stigmatized in today's world.
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And I DO use an inhaler, so I suppose I was the stereotype.
Ah, but did you wear a CAPE to school?
Not saying I ever did that. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4266 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 00:16:26
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Best case scenario for me:
The Forgotten Realms is "abandoned" as a label...and given back to Ed Greenwood so that he can publish as he may and speak as he may.
Everyone has their dreams right? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 00:41:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Best case scenario for me:
The Forgotten Realms is "abandoned" as a label...and given back to Ed Greenwood so that he can publish as he may and speak as he may.
Everyone has their dreams right?
Believe me, I've given that circumstance a lot of thought, and my primary concern would be the lack of infrastructure on Ed's part. He's one of the busiest writers out there (he has a day job), he doesn't own a company, he isn't a rich man, and while I'm sure he could get publishing deals set up, if he were running the show himself, we might get material we want, but even more slowly than WotC puts it out.
Plus, as I'm sure you've read in the past, Ed loves having many voices and opinions in cultivating the Realms. It's a constant process I like to call the Chauntean Realms:
The setting is a vast garden, being gradually expanded as the years go and its fortunes rise and fall. Its customers are you, me, everyone who has played, read, or experienced the Realms in some way.
Ed isn't the master farmer, but simply the first, most experienced fieldhand. Fieldhands come and go, sowing great crops, plentiful rows, or small patches here and there that pay off big overtime.
The farm's management sometimes makes good decisions, sometimes bad ones, but then, they have a tough job: sculpting and promoting the image of the farm, which is being tilled by literally hundreds of different planters with different visions.
Sometimes great things get planted, some seeds are low-yield, and sometimes you get weeds. Sometimes certain fields have to lie fallow for a while, to be revisited later. But the farm has to keep going, regardless of the victories or setbacks it experiences, and so it will keep thriving, so long as there are so many farmers who love to cultivate it, and there are people to consume its produce.
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8068 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 02:37:21
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There is an important detail in your farm analogy which hasn't been mentioned. Sometimes the master farmer is forced to make bad decisions, decisions he doesn't want to make, decisions imposed on him by some governing power whose interest is not in this (or in any particular) farm as much as in maximizing total overall yields.
"Chauntean Realms", heh. Much more appealing than the "Talosian Realms" we've sometimes seen in the past. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 03:52:19
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now for a question, @ Erik and George (and other published/official 'types' who care to chime-in) - have any of you considered my idea of a 'greater Forgotten Realms' meta-setting? I was hoping to hear some feedback, or pro's and con's.
I've considered it, but I've never been the fan of the idea. And, respectfully, you're not the first to have it and it has in the past been implemented, albeit to a lesser degree.
The problem is the conduit - the planes. Planar cosmology is a biggie. It is well-defined, detailed and all encompassing. So much so that people have long subordinated the campaign setting to the Planes. My Realms does not have the TSR/WotC planar baggage attached to it. How can it when I know exactly how Ed's Nine Hells interface with the Realms? An interface that is not reproduced in the Planescape view of the planes.
If the FR "meta-setting" was implemented only by way of gates/portals (easily controllable by DMs to suit their campaign needs) rather than having a planar flavour, then I would be more amenable to the idea, but truly, it does little for me.
The Realms is the Realms, Greyhawk is Greyhawk, etc. etc. In game terms, let individual DMs decide how much "over the hill" factor their games and campaigns will have. If they want to give their PCs the chance to travel to the Pomarj when they've started out in the Dripping Dagger in Waterdeep, they'll work out the how and whys of that happening. As long as the Dripping Dagger has some campaign meat to it in the published products and so too does the Pomarj, the rest is superfluous IMO. They don't need WotC to tell them how to do it, or by making the Realms the centre of the universe, ram it down people's throats.
As I've said a few times previously, they just need to write damn good FR products for the FR fans with enough great gaming ideas, lore, mechanics and flavour that will compel non-FR fans to borrow and steal. In my opinion the absolute best way to do this is to stop blowing up the world and concentrate on the staples of gaming and pack them with FR flavour that translates. What DM wouldn't love to use a properly detailed dwarven hold with maps, ideas about the society within, trade stuff, names, mining stuff, traps, weapons, battle tactics, new spells, magic items, and dwarven crunch? The fact that all this information comes with big fat gobs of FR lore dripping off it which is easily sheared off if the stuff is being cannibalised for another setting or homebrew, is what will make the Realms work in the new edition.
How about an elven tree village, an orc tribe, a merchant coster, a wizard cabal, a thieves guild, an order of knights, a druid circle, etc. etc? Let the fantasy staples, the bread and butter of gaming experiences, shine in the new Realms. Give them great FR roots, history and lore but make them transplantable. In my view, this is what will bring success to the FR gaming line should it get a go in 5E.
Something for the Realms fans, something for the D&D fans. It should be win win if it's done well.
-- George Krashos
This is pure win. And I'd totally get behind this. Dwarven holds, orc tribes and other goodness? Yes Please! Currently, I've had to draw a regional map of the middle dark for the Deep Wastes and if I had a small detailed duergar settlement...then bam, Grimmerzuhl is already done and detailed. These types of resources would be awesome tools for a DM to have in their arsenal because it can take hours upon hours to detail out even one city. Any person can draw a map and slap some names down, but making places come alive is a lot of work.
Backdrop type articles would be excellent for this, maybe with an extra 5 or 10 pages worth of NPC's and slick detail. And it would be great freelancer work that wouldn't require the Realms knowledge base that say putting together a Waterdeep article would require. A dungeon delve series would be great. I'm a sucker for classics and every campaign should have at least one good dwarf ruin exploration mission or orc cave stomping session.
I still remember Clovis our weaselly gnome priest rolling a natural 20 on his turn undead attempt and blowing the dracolich into dust shards. That was over 15 years ago when I was a kid, in one of those dwarven ruins and I never forgot it. Granted that shouldn't have happened with 2E rules, but hey it made for a great memory. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 17:50:25
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I highly concur that everything should be transplantable, and--yes--system-neutral, or at least flexible. You should be able to play the Realms with any game system, be it D&D, Pathfinder, AGE, Cortex, GURPS, Star Wars d6, whatever you want.
What's important to me is making the story cool, making the setting immersive, and perpetuating the particular charm of the Realms.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 21:51:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I highly concur that everything should be transplantable, and--yes--system-neutral, or at least flexible. You should be able to play the Realms with any game system, be it D&D, Pathfinder, AGE, Cortex, GURPS, Star Wars d6, whatever you want.
So you agree that by slapping 'D&D' onto setting-material, it could possibly be off-putting to those who do not play D&D?
D&D is a set of rules, NOT a setting. Saying so is a big mistake, IMHO. Each inter-linking part of 5e (rules, settings, & minis) should have its own branding, otherwise you establish feelings of exclusivity (you do not want customers to avoid products just because of their connections to the other products).
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
What's important to me is making the story cool, making the setting immersive, and perpetuating the particular charm of the Realms.
Agreed.
Quality products sell, regardless. I own(ed) tons of game-related products from dozens of companies that I never even used, just because "I heard good things". Quality is PARAMOUNT, and should trump everything else.
And this shouldn't just be applied to FR - I want it applied across the board. For example, there were places where 4e out-shined 3e (like bringing back Darksun) - why can't we have ONE EDITION that brings awesome to everything?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3768 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 23:24:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So you agree that by slapping 'D&D' onto setting-material, it could possibly be off-putting to those who do not play D&D?
-Given that D&D is the primary medium through which Forgotten Realms stuff is seen and published through, I don't think it fully possible for someone to be a fan of the Forgotten Realms but be put off by D&D. The world has never been separated from it- from specific rulesets, yes, but from the overall umbrella of Dungeons and Dragons products, no. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 00:59:32
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It does seem unlikely that you'd be a Forgotten Realms fan who HATES D&D and refuses to be part of it. I can certainly understand not wanting to play it and having 0 interest in the tabletop game, but it's probably not a problem that D&D is involved in the Realms (because if it were, you'd have quit the Realms a long time ago).
I do not think a D&D logo belongs on novels (though possibly on the back)--the WotC logo is more than sufficient for a publisher logo, and of course the setting logo should be on there.
I also think the D&D logo should be on the sourcebooks, but only in a small "compatible with D&D 5th Edition" sort of way. We should not give the implication that these are D&D books--they're Realms books, first and foremost, which you can USE with D&D if you want to. Sourcebooks should also be mechanics light, and heavy on the lore/flavor.
The flipside, of course, is the consideration that D&D may be a more powerful brand than Forgotten Realms. If that's the case, including the D&D logo seems more reasonable. I think you'll get your appeal with non-D&D players by making the sourcebooks mechanics-neutral. You could drop the D&D logo or keep it for sales-boosting.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4266 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 02:41:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Best case scenario for me:
The Forgotten Realms is "abandoned" as a label...and given back to Ed Greenwood so that he can publish as he may and speak as he may.
Everyone has their dreams right?
Believe me, I've given that circumstance a lot of thought, and my primary concern would be the lack of infrastructure on Ed's part. He's one of the busiest writers out there (he has a day job), he doesn't own a company, he isn't a rich man, and while I'm sure he could get publishing deals set up, if he were running the show himself, we might get material we want, but even more slowly than WotC puts it out.
Plus, as I'm sure you've read in the past, Ed loves having many voices and opinions in cultivating the Realms. It's a constant process I like to call the Chauntean Realms:
The setting is a vast garden, being gradually expanded as the years go and its fortunes rise and fall. Its customers are you, me, everyone who has played, read, or experienced the Realms in some way.
Ed isn't the master farmer, but simply the first, most experienced fieldhand. Fieldhands come and go, sowing great crops, plentiful rows, or small patches here and there that pay off big overtime.
The farm's management sometimes makes good decisions, sometimes bad ones, but then, they have a tough job: sculpting and promoting the image of the farm, which is being tilled by literally hundreds of different planters with different visions.
Sometimes great things get planted, some seeds are low-yield, and sometimes you get weeds. Sometimes certain fields have to lie fallow for a while, to be revisited later. But the farm has to keep going, regardless of the victories or setbacks it experiences, and so it will keep thriving, so long as there are so many farmers who love to cultivate it, and there are people to consume its produce.
Cheers
I agree...but Ed could simply put in place a CEO of a quickly founded company. As for who wrote material, I didn't say Ed would be the ONLY one...simply that he would be able to do as he wished. 
Dreams are dreams, however; and this is just a dream. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 03:57:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Best case scenario for me:
The Forgotten Realms is "abandoned" as a label...and given back to Ed Greenwood so that he can publish as he may and speak as he may.
Everyone has their dreams right?
Believe me, I've given that circumstance a lot of thought, and my primary concern would be the lack of infrastructure on Ed's part. He's one of the busiest writers out there (he has a day job), he doesn't own a company, he isn't a rich man, and while I'm sure he could get publishing deals set up, if he were running the show himself, we might get material we want, but even more slowly than WotC puts it out.
Plus, as I'm sure you've read in the past, Ed loves having many voices and opinions in cultivating the Realms. It's a constant process I like to call the Chauntean Realms:
The setting is a vast garden, being gradually expanded as the years go and its fortunes rise and fall. Its customers are you, me, everyone who has played, read, or experienced the Realms in some way.
Ed isn't the master farmer, but simply the first, most experienced fieldhand. Fieldhands come and go, sowing great crops, plentiful rows, or small patches here and there that pay off big overtime.
The farm's management sometimes makes good decisions, sometimes bad ones, but then, they have a tough job: sculpting and promoting the image of the farm, which is being tilled by literally hundreds of different planters with different visions.
Sometimes great things get planted, some seeds are low-yield, and sometimes you get weeds. Sometimes certain fields have to lie fallow for a while, to be revisited later. But the farm has to keep going, regardless of the victories or setbacks it experiences, and so it will keep thriving, so long as there are so many farmers who love to cultivate it, and there are people to consume its produce.
Cheers
I agree...but Ed could simply put in place a CEO of a quickly founded company. As for who wrote material, I didn't say Ed would be the ONLY one...simply that he would be able to do as he wished.
Dreams are dreams, however; and this is just a dream.
That company still is going to need a lot of capital to hire all the staff it needs, and to produce and distribute material. I'm thinking that even if all of the active scribes here pooled all of their available resources, it still wouldn't be enough to make this a viable option. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3768 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 04:54:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I agree...but Ed could simply put in place a CEO of a quickly founded company. As for who wrote material, I didn't say Ed would be the ONLY one...simply that he would be able to do as he wished.
Dreams are dreams, however; and this is just a dream.
-And cause even further retcons and continuity problems when, as a separate entity from WotC, he can't legally use WotC copyrighted names, monster, items, spells, and the various other things that aren't OGL public license, many of which have become firmly entrenched in the world (planes, for example)? No thank you. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 15:36:25
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Ultimately, approve or disapprove of WotC's custodianship of the Realms as one might, it is presently in everyone's best interest for the company to continue producing and shepherding the Realms. This seems to be Ed's perspective, and I trust his judgment in all things Realms-related.
I do think that his voice should be the CHIEF voice in the Realms going forward, as in all editions. There's actually a facebook group that exists for advocating for this purpose, if you want to check it out: http://www.facebook.com/#!/EdsRealms
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 23:05:29
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Hey ERik, in your professional oppinion, how would this retcon affect the 4e novels.
retcon: with the death of mystra, those who could channel spellfire were long forgotten and these days those who can tap into the remains of the spellfire are considered to have the spell plague with some positive and negative effects.
(this is just for pcs and npcs not the areas messed up by the spell plague, such as the lost of unther,matizca,mulhaundc antspellitanyway, halruua etc)
(I still think dropping to a foot note is the best idea) |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 25 Apr 2012 23:10:36 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 23:23:04
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Hey ERik, in your professional oppinion, how would this retcon affect the 4e novels.
In my professional capacity, it would be unprofessional of me to claim to be an expert on spellfire. But I will certainly give my opinion.
quote:
retcon: with the death of mystra, those who could channel spellfire were long forgotten and these days those who can tap into the remains of the spellfire are considered to have the spell plague with some positive and negative effects.
(this is just for pcs and npcs not the areas messed up by the spell plague, such as the lost of unther,matizca,mulhaundc antspellitanyway, halruua etc)
That sounds reasonable.
If you're curious, I think Spellfire and Spellplague are basically the same thing--raw magical power, broken out of the Weave and reduced to its component parts. In the case of Spellfire, it's the Weave being pulled apart and reshaped to the user's desires. Mortals who can channel spellfire are, for some reason, naturally able to shape magic into a weave of their own.
Spellplague is the same sort of thing--the tattered remnants of the Weave, uncontrolled. To some extent, mortals who can use magic now form their own little threads of Weave. It's the same thing Mystra did, but mortals never had to do it themselves before.
That's my take on it.
quote:
(I still think dropping to a foot note is the best idea)
I don't want to overstate that concept--really, all I'm suggesting is that the Spellplague happened, it's over, and it should be resolved, and we can then move on. The invasion of Faerun by the hordes of Tuigan was a pretty huge deal when it happened, but now it's just a footnote in history. Same with the Time of Troubles. That's what should happen to the Spellplague.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 02:56:20
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The people of Toril can move on...And while the scars remain, in time they'll disappear as well.
Spellplague as footnote. Yes, you got it right. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 03:11:10
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anlot of people think that it was the best thing to happen to the realms. and alot ofpeople say no... I think it would of been better handled if there was a series of novels to go with it and then do the 100 year jump.
but... no novel line.. no nothing and a foot note is all it should be... it happenened and it ended. just like the horde, the time of troubles, the fall of netheril demoted to a footnote. and what Dennis said is correct the scars remain and in time they too will disapear. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Rils
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 16:55:33
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Absolutely, 100% agree.
So why are people so hung up on it? If you can relegate it to a historical footnote and play in the time afterwards, or if you prefer, just play in the time before it happened, why all the nerdrage? |
Dugmaren Brightmantle is my homey. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 19:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Rils
Absolutely, 100% agree.
So why are people so hung up on it? If you can relegate it to a historical footnote and play in the time afterwards, or if you prefer, just play in the time before it happened, why all the nerdrage?
because some liked the palgue and some dont. but regardless of who like what, nobody ever makes it clear when they post something, it may be clear enough for the poster, but not so much the reader.
(namely humans love to argue)
there has also been someone who disagreed with me on making it a footnote too....
but that is clear, the spellplague must be reduced to a footnote. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 19:56:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
there has also been someone who disagreed with me on making it a footnote too....
but that is clear, the spellplague must be reduced to a footnote.
I disagree with making it a footnote, so it is not clear that that's the solution. If someone objects to something, saying it's in the past doesn't remove that which they object to. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 19:58:44
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As a DM (which I have been long-before I was an FR-fan, and before I realized some guy named Ed Greenwood wrote most of my favorite Dragon articles), I have absolutely NO problem with whatever they do, since my Realms are whatever I say they are, WHENever I say they are. To say canon effects my D&D game is an absurdity - No-one runs a canon game (you can run one based on canon, but the second the session begins, it is no longer canon).
However, I am also a Realms fan, which is an entirely different animal. What happens in official material does effect how much I like the canon Realms. I believe this is why we have all this so-called 'nerd rage'.
My game can be set in any era (currently I am weighing the possibilities of a game set during the time of the Creator-Races), but my reading CANNOT. The Spellplague and 4e now makes us read about a time and people we care nothing about - thats the problem in a nutshell. What we read, and when we play are completely unrelated aspects of FR. One I can control, the other I can't... except by voting with my wallet.
And even if they 'open up the timeline', I still don't see myself becoming as 'involved' with the characters and world as I once was. I know now that most of them are going to die meaningless deaths, so I would rather not be invested in that any longer. Interesting characters introduced in both Blackstaff and Elminster's Daughter were simply dead when the next novels came out. How are we supposed to be vested in that? If the design team couldn't respect the setting, how are we supposed to?
All I can say is that Monty better pull a miracle out of his... toolbox... with 5e. If it isn't absolutely amazing (and they find a good COMPROMISE with FR), its going to tank. I am not saying it can't be done - I had walked-away from D&D once before (late 90's), and then 3e brought me back (I bought the first book out of curiosity, and I just couldn't get enough). I know it can be done, and I know Monty has the chops... we just have to wait and see if the man can walk-on-water. Thats not a tall order, is it? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Apr 2012 20:01:40 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4266 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 20:02:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As a DM (which I have been long-before I was an FR-fan, and before I realized some guy named Ed Greenwood wrote most of my favorite Dragon articles), I have absolutely NO problem with whatever they do, since my Realms are whatever I say they are, WHENever I say they are. To say canon effects my D&D game is an absurdity - No-one runs a canon game (you can run one based on canon, but the second the session begins, it is no longer canon).
However, I am also a Realms fan, which is an entirely different animal. What happens in official material does effect how much I like the canon Realms. I believe this is why we have all this so-called 'nerd rage'.
My game can be set in any era (currently I am weighing the possibilities of a game set during the time of the Creator-Races), but my reading CANNOT. The Spellplague and 4e now makes us read about a time and people we care nothing about - thats the problem in a nutshell. What we read, and when we play are completely unrelated aspects of FR. One I can control, the other I can't... except by voting with my wallet.
And even if they 'open up the timeline', I still don't see myself becoming as 'involved' with the characters and world as I once was. I know now that most of them are going to die meaningless deaths, so I would rather not be invested in that any longer. Interesting characters introduced in both Blackstaff and Elminster's Daughter were simply dead when the next novels came out. How are we supposed to be vested in that? If the design team couldn't respect the setting, how are we supposed to?
All I can say is that Monty better pull a miracle out of his... toolbox... with 5e. If it isn't absolutely amazing (and they find a good COMPROMISE with FR), its going to tank. I am not saying it can't be done - I had walked-away from D&D once before (late 90's), and then 3e brought me back (I bought the first book out of curiosity, and I just couldn't get enough). I know it can be done, and I know Monty has the chops... we just have to wait and see if the man can walk-on-water. thats not a tall order, is it?
Monte is no longer with WotC mate. 
http://montecook.livejournal.com/251404.html |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 20:08:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As a DM (which I have been long-before I was an FR-fan, and before I realized some guy named Ed Greenwood wrote most of my favorite Dragon articles), I have absolutely NO problem with whatever they do, since my Realms are whatever I say they are, WHENever I say they are. To say canon effects my D&D game is an absurdity - No-one runs a canon game (you can run one based on canon, but the second the session begins, it is no longer canon).
However, I am also a Realms fan, which is an entirely different animal. What happens in official material does effect how much I like the canon Realms. I believe this is why we have all this so-called 'nerd rage'.
My game can be set in any era (currently I am weighing the possibilities of a game set during the time of the Creator-Races), but my reading CANNOT. The Spellplague and 4e now makes us read about a time and people we care nothing about - thats the problem in a nutshell. What we read, and when we play are completely unrelated aspects of FR. One I can control, the other I can't... except by voting with my wallet.
And even if they 'open up the timeline', I still don't see myself becoming as 'involved' with the characters and world as I once was. I know now that most of them are going to die meaningless deaths, so I would rather not be invested in that any longer. Interesting characters introduced in both Blackstaff and Elminster's Daughter were simply dead when the next novels came out. How are we supposed to be vested in that? If the design team couldn't respect the setting, how are we supposed to?
All I can say is that Monty better pull a miracle out of his... toolbox... with 5e. If it isn't absolutely amazing (and they find a good COMPROMISE with FR), its going to tank. I am not saying it can't be done - I had walked-away from D&D once before (late 90's), and then 3e brought me back (I bought the first book out of curiosity, and I just couldn't get enough). I know it can be done, and I know Monty has the chops... we just have to wait and see if the man can walk-on-water. thats not a tall order, is it?
Monte is no longer with WotC mate.
http://montecook.livejournal.com/251404.html
Yes this leaves me sad...
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 20:11:17
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Crap. 
So who's in charge of 5e now? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4266 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 20:12:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Crap.
So who's in charge of 5e now?
I have no idea...I only found out about this just about an hour or so ago via Obsidian Portal. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 20:28:28
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Wow.
This a tremendous blow. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 20:31:33
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| I think that this scroll is a better place for that conversation. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3768 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 21:09:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Rils
Absolutely, 100% agree.
So why are people so hung up on it? If you can relegate it to a historical footnote and play in the time afterwards, or if you prefer, just play in the time before it happened, why all the nerdrage?
-Because I don't play D&D, but the setting of the fantasy book line that I enjoyed underwent a nearly wholesale change. Only a smaller fraction of the total fanbase actively plays D&D on any active basis where changes that are not well received can be hand-waved away, so this remains problematic for most who are fans of the setting, through novels, video games, board games, etc. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 26 Apr 2012 21:43:20 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 22:16:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
there has also been someone who disagreed with me on making it a footnote too....
but that is clear, the spellplague must be reduced to a footnote.
I disagree with making it a footnote, so it is not clear that that's the solution. If someone objects to something, saying it's in the past doesn't remove that which they object to.
no it is the clear thing to do to it. how its done is not so clear.
if its put in the lore part, and none of it is mentioned in the areas of toril or focused on as much it would have done better.
back when 4e realms was announce we all heard 10 years and then 100 years. imo, how the 4e frcg was written would have been fine IF it was ten years.
but no... we got blah blah blah suffered this way, that way, x way and even jay walked in the years following the spell plague. so why do I care that what happened to Silverymoon in the next 10 years following the spell plague 100 years after the event?
a foot note, it happened, we move on the scars are still there.
the history section of the setting book can detail the changes, but the locales should not focus on the changed over 100 years agon in the realms.
and see, there is someone out there who disagrees that it should be madea footnote.
just like there are alot of people out there who don't want it reconned to austa la byby and some who do want it retconned to austa la byby.
so the only visible compromises are:
foot note of some sorts
or
retcon how the spellplague worked when it struck a pc or npc and by that I mean change the explanation.
nobody is going to be pleased on 5e's changes to the realms and more so if it all ends up as a @#%@#%@#%@ boardgame |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e)
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