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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Mar 2012 : 17:39:57
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I think that one of the things that might be being missed is that while players and DMs should be able to deviate from cannon when it works best for their specific campaign, it is important that cannon (or more specifically, the continuity of cannon) be maintained for an overall believable campaign setting/novel line. Yes, we are encouraged to make the Realms our own. But whenever we want to, the continuity of the cannon must be solid for us to return to and reference as needed.
Another thing that I think is being missed is that not all of the customers of the campaign accessories are players or DMs. I own all but Mysteries of the Moonsea of the 3/3.5e Realms hardcover campaign accessories, but I have only had the chance to run all of 4 or 5 Realms games in our gaming group in the past 10 years. Primarily, I am a Realms novel reader who purchased the books primarily for the lore. And I do not think that I am the only one. And if the 4e Realms campaign accessories had been at all appealing to me, then I would have purchased them for the lore, even though I probably still wouldn't have "moved on" to the 4e rules set.
The new edition of the setting needs to appeal to me and others like me, as well as the players DMs out there who want to play and run games set in the Realms. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 09 Mar 2012 17:47:39 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2012 : 19:01:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Didn't the Spellplague occur in 1385 DR? Anything after the Cerulean Wave rolled across the world and screwed everthing up is 'after shocks'. That's not Spellplague, those are symptoms of the Spellplague (IMO).
The Spellplague is an ongoing event, whose affects largely subsided within the first ten years of the weave's collapse. The decade between 1385 and 1395 is known as the Wailing Years [see http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10705]. The Spellplague endures in the present day (1480 DR) only as pockets of plaguechanged land and spellscared individuals. The "Cerulean Wave" as you put it only swept through Toril during the Wailing Years. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
Edited by - Brian R. James on 09 Mar 2012 19:03:56 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2012 : 19:25:33
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@MT and Brian: Yes. The Spellplague's major effects happened in 1385-1395, but there are active pockets of spellplague energy in various places throughout the world. Canonically, it has a fairly minor impact on anything in the setting, with a few exceptions (the Plaguescarred Lands, for instasnce), where it is a significant deal. The DM is free to play up or ignore those areas.
@Hawkins: Agreed. Though we're talking about the "canon" you can read about, not the "cannon" you fire. *Internal consistency* is absolutely necessary for Realmslore. *External consistency* (i.e. how much of the canon you use in your game and how much you vary from it) is entirely up to you.
@Azuth: I think you're saying what I've said in the past, that the anti-4e animosity is unfairly levelled mostly at the Spellplague, and that things could have gone far better with some different details/events. I hold that the timejump--the 100 years of emptiness--was more difficult to get past than anything else involved in the 4e transition.
Also 3/4ths of the pantheon? That seems like an exaggeration. I was writing a list of the deities just yesterday, and the vast majority are still around still largely the same.
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2012 : 19:28:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Also 3/4ths of the pantheon? That seems like an exaggeration. I was writing a list of the deities just yesterday, and the vast majority are still around still largely the same.
Speaking of, Erik: remind me to dig out and send you my 3E/4E transition deities list. It's around here somewhere... |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2012 : 19:41:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
<snip>
Also 3/4ths of the pantheon? That seems like an exaggeration. I was writing a list of the deities just yesterday, and the vast majority are still around still largely the same.
Cheers
I won't disagree because I've never calculated the percentages. Statistics, of course, are meaningless in areas of personal concern. A person is not comforted when her house burns down if we tell her it only happens to 150 homes in the United States each day. Or if the death rate of a certain type of cancer is less than 1%, but your loved one died from that type of cancer. Yes, these are extreme examples, but people are passionate about the Realms. Clearly I have a passion for Azuth, but he didn't make the cut. Bob Salvatore's characters seem to have lost, too. Exit Cadderly and Deneir, Exit Mielikki. Again, percentage wise doesn't matter. Admittedly, it wouldn't have bothered me one iota if all of the demihuman deities had been whacked, because the "Human" Pantheon is featured the most. I suspect others would disagree.
Make sense?
Azuth |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2012 : 19:43:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Also 3/4ths of the pantheon? That seems like an exaggeration. I was writing a list of the deities just yesterday, and the vast majority are still around still largely the same.
Speaking of, Erik: remind me to dig out and send you my 3E/4E transition deities list. It's around here somewhere...
Is that a designer/writer only list? If not, I would be quite interested in procuring a copy of that for myself. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2012 : 19:45:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Also 3/4ths of the pantheon? That seems like an exaggeration. I was writing a list of the deities just yesterday, and the vast majority are still around still largely the same.
Speaking of, Erik: remind me to dig out and send you my 3E/4E transition deities list. It's around here somewhere...
Is that a designer/writer only list? If not, I would be quite interested in procuring a copy of that for myself.
I'll have to see if there's any privileged information in there before I can answer this question. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2012 : 21:16:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
I think that one of the things that might be being missed is that while players and DMs should be able to deviate from cannon when it works best for their specific campaign, it is important that cannon (or more specifically, the continuity of cannon) be maintained for an overall believable campaign setting/novel line. Yes, we are encouraged to make the Realms our own. But whenever we want to, the continuity of the cannon must be solid for us to return to and reference as needed.
-It is the only thing we have in common with each other, to use as reference. It's nice if, in your game, you eliminated the Shades and turned Cormyr into an empire that annexed Sembia and parts of the Anauroch instead, but that doesn't give us much reference if you're looking for help/critique/whatever else. In someone else's game, Cormyr might have never existed, and is a neo-Cormanthyr. Or, in some other, Princess Alusair might have been deposed of, plunging the kingdom into an authoritarian state run by Vangerdhast, who actually betrayed the royal family decades ago, and has been subtly manipulating events to his benefit. And so on. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2012 : 22:12:00
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@Azuth: Sure, I hear you. But I also want to temper the discussion to be in line with measurable fact. I agree that too many deities disappeared during the transition (not all of them killed, but their fate shrouded in mystery), but I think it's confusing to inflate the numbers.
I do think many of those deities do need to come back. I would be the first in line to write an adventure into the Hells to rescue Azuth from Asmoedus. (I mean, I *did* write the Hells part of Plane Above, so I'm kinda down with that already.)
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 05:02:11
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So the Spellplague happened, and it is happening.
And chance it will happen?
(I just figured we should cover all three tenses) 
Anyhow, my point is that all the major 'randomness' is over and done with - I can no longer move around entire countries without breaking from canon in a major way. "Localized pockets of Spellplague" doesn't help me at all - we already had "regions of magical chaos" leftover from the ToT.
I don't think the Spellplague matters as much as people think, in regards to thread topic, but we shall see.
Where can I find the 3e lore on Dragonborn, BTW? I'm trying to figure-out a better way to sync things up. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Mar 2012 05:51:02 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 05:14:08
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| 3.x dragonborn is either in the dragons of faerun or that other dragon book in 3.x.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 05:57:39
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Races of the Dragon
Uh-DOH! {thanks}  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 08:30:02
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Dragonborn = dragon eggs that fell from the sky. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 15:59:13
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ALL dragons originally "fell from the sky" (the first ones, at any rate).
Theres something in all of that - the tears of Selune, the Elves, the dragons, the Fey... something I can't quite put my finger on. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 17:47:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So the Spellplague happened, and it is happening.
And chance it will happen?
(I just figured we should cover all three tenses)
Anyhow, my point is that all the major 'randomness' is over and done with - I can no longer move around entire countries without breaking from canon in a major way. "Localized pockets of Spellplague" doesn't help me at all - we already had "regions of magical chaos" leftover from the ToT.
I don't think the Spellplague matters as much as people think, in regards to thread topic, but we shall see.
MT, I'm starting to get really confused on what you're asking here. The Spellplague hit in 1385, had most of its effects in 1395, and exists today in isolated patches, much like dead magic or wild magic areas. I speculate that active "patches" of Spellplague are the lingering bits of the Weave, not yet completely unraveled even after a century.
In this way, restoring the Weave is really a pretty simple process, albeit a Herculean task in terms of how much power and effort it would require: stitch it back together from the torn pieces. It's like trying to restore a tapestry that's been torn in lots of small bits--doable, but it takes a long time, added material, and it probably won't look the same as it did originally.
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 17:29:56
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Okay, lets look at a couple of RW (recent) disaters: The Tsunami that hit India, and the earthquake in Japan.
Both had immediate and devastating effects, which made major (permanent) changes to those regions. The earthquake and tsunami are NOT still going on, but their after-effects will probably be felt for decades to come.
So what is the Spellplague? Was it THE disaster, or is it the after-effects? It can't be both. I thought I made that clear by explaning the distinctions between the Avatar Crisis and the ToT (two related, but separate, phenomena).
Japan did not have 'pockets of earthquake' - it had after-shocks. If the earthquake was still going on, that would be different, but it is over. The other problems that stemmed from the catastrophic event - like the nuclear plant - is ongoing, and related, but not the same as the initial event.
Just because something is 'magical' does not mean it should defy the laws of grammar. All the sweeping changes to the setting happened within the first decade. What is happening now (1479) can't be Spellplague - it is plaguechanged, plaguescars, 'regions of magical chaos', etc - all symptoms of the an event that has already transpired.
So if I want to plop a brand-new country down in the middle of the Shaar, I can't (canonically), because the Spellplague is over. I can have people from that nation appear in some Plaguelands, and create a new country, but I can't change things whole-cloth (like the designers did) because the main event happened a century into the past.
Now, in 1386 DR I can do whatever I want - I can drop twenty countries from twenty different settings down onto the map, all over the place, and I violate NO canon... because we have no idea what was going on during the Spellplague. If a player says "that was never there before", I simply say, "it came-over during the Spellplague". If they ask "why isn't it there in 1479 DR?", I can answer, "because after the Spellplague subsided (in 1395 DR), much of faerun went back to the way it was before.
It is only during that ten-year window where I can literally do ANYTHING, and still have it be canon. I can have the Transformers battle Godzilla, while Pickard's Away-team fights Freddy Kruger... and no-one can tell me that never happened.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2012 17:39:56 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 23:58:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So what is the Spellplague? Was it THE disaster, or is it the after-effects? It can't be both. I thought I made that clear by explaning the distinctions between the Avatar Crisis and the ToT (two related, but separate, phenomena).
-Think of a forest fire analogy. The initial fire starts on X date. The fire sweeps across the forest, burning things, for Y amount of time. It is eventually contained on Z date. Despite the fact that it is contained on Z date, after having burned for Y amount of time after being set on X date, pockets of uncontained fire still exist in the forest.
-The Spellplague was sparked in 1,385 DR with the death of Mystra. The Weave "burned" out of control for 100+ years. In 1,479 DR, the Spellplague has mostly been contained/burned out, but pockets of The Weave are still "burning". |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 03:23:10
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MT, I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse.
There is absolutely no reason you can't use the same term to mean two different but closely related things. What people refer to historically as the "Spellplague" was an event wherein the Weave burst and unraveled, causing waves of what people called "spellplague" to wash over the land and change it in ways both small and large. Some of this "spellplague" still exists today in isolated pockets.
If you really need specific language, here we go: "Spellplague" refers to the even itself, whereas "spellplague energy" refers to the magic (manifested as blue flame) that appeared during the Spellplague event.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 03:51:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
MT, I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse.
There is absolutely no reason you can't use the same term to mean two different but closely related things. What people refer to historically as the "Spellplague" was an event wherein the Weave burst and unraveled, causing waves of what people called "spellplague" to wash over the land and change it in ways both small and large. Some of this "spellplague" still exists today in isolated pockets.
If you really need specific language, here we go: "Spellplague" refers to the even itself, whereas "spellplague energy" refers to the magic (manifested as blue flame) that appeared during the Spellplague event.
Cheers
I really like the idea of this thread, but I'm not sure what we're talking about here. I don't think that ambiguity about the term "Spellplague" is what caused 4E its pains. The Great Depression happened, and it lasted years. It started, it had a time where people suffered, and there's a period where historians agree it ended. For some people, we're in a second depression now, for others, there hasn't been one at all. I suspect that the "Spellplague" was, to the general population, the day that Mystra died and the Weave collapsed. Mages and Clerics and Historians may still argue about it, but philosophical discussions are best left to characters in novels.
I can't say that MT is being obtuse, but I am perplexed as to what this discussion contributes to the topic thread we're hammering out, here. I don't recall a specific name for Mystril's death, or the fall of Netheril. I also couldn't care less if there was one. Many things happened at "once" (just ask Karsus) but my game has never dwelled on that specific point. Similar to the Time of Troubles, which had a "finite" span, the after-effects continue as wild magic, and the continued absence of Bhall and Myrkul from the Pantheon, the addition of Cyric, (and Mystra?) as well. Does this mean that the Time of Troubles cannot end until Bhall and Myrkul are returned to the heavens?
There are plenty of scrolls on Candlekeep devoted to philosophical discussion: this is not one of them. This is a request by one of the current-best game developers asking us for input. We really are playing in Ed's sandbox, no matter what happens. Might we carry on with that discussion, please?
I hope it goes without saying my intent is not to offend anyone.
Cheers,
Azuth |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 05:15:00
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I apologize--my "obtuse" suggestion was off-base. I'm just perplexed, and we seem to be communicating at cross-purposes.
And indeed, I think you can still use the Spellplague as justification for anything you want to do in your Realms. It's the ultimate "a wizard did it." Or "wizards did it," if you know what I mean.
Regardless of what can properly be called the "Spellplague," it still needs to be addressed, resolved, and moved-on-from if the Realms is to persevere. We have that toy--now let's build some more things to add to the box.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 14:30:24
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So because you can't see the validity of my point (which I feel is VERY valid - maybe I'm just nuts), I am being 'obtuse'?
Just because 99% of the people can overlook the point I am trying to make (or don't even see it, which I believe is your case), doesn't mean it doesn't bother the crap out of me.
Azuth made a good point - the stock market crashed, and then the Great Depression happened. You can't the Stock Market crashed, and kept crashing, or that the depression occurred, and then kept occurring.
I think this is very relevant to the thread - the new terminology 4e introduced to the setting is ill-defined, and one of the many reasons people couldn't 'get into it'. If the author/designers don't even know precisely what something is (like the Shadoweave all throughout 3e), then how are we supposed to?
I asked a simple question - Are large chunks of terrain and entire racial groups STILL being dumped into FR in 1479 DR?
If not, then the initial catastrophe is over (no matter what you wish to call it), so it can no longer be used by DMs.
And I am still onboard for the 'one canon' one Realms' approach - I am just hoping that by 'picking at all the scabs', someone will see those weak-spots in the lore and do something about it, before 5eFR is released. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4471 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 15:56:58
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Ok, I get what your saying. The Spellplague is the after effect of Mystra being slain on her home plane and the weave unraveling.
The harsh effects of the spellplague were fierce but swift, probably ending on a major scale approx 10 years after Mystra's murder. Still, pockets of 'spellplague' exist and modify the terrain and creatures that come into contact with it. The exact details and descriptions of these effects are purposely left vague to give DM free reign to add what they want with a convenient excuse. So is it (meaning the spellplague) done? I id say yes for the most part, but there are pockets still active. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 16:14:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So because you can't see the validity of my point (which I feel is VERY valid - maybe I'm just nuts), I am being 'obtuse'?
Just because 99% of the people can overlook the point I am trying to make (or don't even see it, which I believe is your case), doesn't mean it doesn't bother the crap out of me.
Azuth made a good point - the stock market crashed, and then the Great Depression happened. You can't the Stock Market crashed, and kept crashing, or that the depression occurred, and then kept occurring.
I think this is very relevant to the thread - the new terminology 4e introduced to the setting is ill-defined, and one of the many reasons people couldn't 'get into it'. If the author/designers don't even know precisely what something is (like the Shadoweave all throughout 3e), then how are we supposed to?
I asked a simple question - Are large chunks of terrain and entire racial groups STILL being dumped into FR in 1479 DR?
If not, then the initial catastrophe is over (no matter what you wish to call it), so it can no longer be used by DMs.
And I am still onboard for the 'one canon' one Realms' approach - I am just hoping that by 'picking at all the scabs', someone will see those weak-spots in the lore and do something about it, before 5eFR is released.
MT, I think you're making a good point. It doesn't seem 'obtuse' to me. I agree that the terminology (and the timeline immediately after the Spellplague) has been ill-defined in 4E.
For example, I don't really know if the "Abeir" event happened as part of the Spellplague, or as an after-effect, or as a separate kind of cataclysm.
To me, "Spellplague" encompasses all of the 4E changes. That's how people generally talk about it. But this is bad, because we're talking about at least a period of 10-100 years in duration.
I think the spellplague itself can and should be restricted to the events of Mystra's murder and the subsequent wave of damaging energy that happened afterwards. But the problem is that spellplague itself is responsible for igniting or causing these other events:
- the reordering of the planes
- the merging of some planes to become a new Feywild and Shadowfell
- the crash of Abeir and its effects
- the leftover spellplague energy that was left in pockets
The last one especially could be called the "Wailing Years" but- and this is a big but - we don't really know what happened during those 10 years after Mystra's murder.
Also, both large and small pockets of spellplague energy have been continuing to make damage, changes, and so on, for at least 90 or so years after the Wailing Years.
In a real life situation, people and communities would organically come up with terms, definitions, and explanations for all of these things as separate events (even if the one event touched off and caused all the other later ones). But all we really have to go on, in the game world, is some pretty hazily defined terms. And I agree, that is part of the problem with the way 4E was designed.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 16:17:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So because you can't see the validity of my point (which I feel is VERY valid - maybe I'm just nuts), I am being 'obtuse'?
I retracted the obtuse comment, but it was originally made because I felt like we'd answered your question multiple times and you kept repeating the same question. It was getting very frustrating.
It's like Diffan says: Mystra "perished" in 1385, setting off the "Spellplague" event, wherein the Weave started unraveling, inflicting magical chaos throughout Toril. The main devastation caused by the unraveling Weave took place over a 10 year period (called the Wailing Years), and the manifestations of the chaos became commonly known among the populace as "spellplague" or "blue fire." By 1395, most of the Weave had unraveled and most of the damage was done. Some of the frayed Weave still exists to this day in various small pockets throughout the world, where people still refer to it as "spellplague." When they do so, they aren't talking about the event itself (though obviously it's connected), but only about this particular bit of wild, ravenous magic.
quote:
I asked a simple question - Are large chunks of terrain and entire racial groups STILL being dumped into FR in 1479 DR?
I never saw this question, but I'll gladly answer it now: NO, that isn't happening in the canonical Realms. As far as we know, that only happened during the initial Spellplague event between 1385-1395.
(Unless you consider the constant changes in the plaguescarred lands to be the result of the worlds conjoining and terrain swapping back and forth between Toril and Abeir. Maybe that's what's going on?)
Which doesn't mean that in your Realms, one of those active pockets of spellplague can't flare up and switch one realm out for another. I'm just saying that no, canonically, that isn't happening.
quote:
If not, then the initial catastrophe is over (no matter what you wish to call it), so it can no longer be used by DMs.
As I've said above, the initial catastrophe is over, but spellplague energy lingers in the world, to be used as a DM tool.
I compare the event to the influenza outbreak around WWI era: the epic flu wiped out a whole lot of people back then, and while the flu is still around and still called influenza, it doesn't cause as much havoc. Same with the Spellplague.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 16:33:55
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Eh, when did the Black Death end?
A kid just out of high school might say something like 1351, because it's taught as having raged between 1347-1351. A more careful scholar would point out that until 1671, there wasn't a single year in Europe during which a disease with similar symptoms wasn't killing people.
Finally, an epidemologist would give a blank stare while asking: "End?" Then he'd go on about the various forms of plagues which have incorrectly been assumed to be the same thing (or different things, epidemologists differ just like other folks) and how the bubonic plague, the leading contender for 'Black Death' killed a kid just last year, thank you, so let's not get ahead of ourselves with any 'ends' just yet.
Point is, almost any worldwide phenomena is going to be difficult to assign a neat narrative with a beginning and end. When it's a generic name used to describe a wide variety of observed effects... well, any such period will be a lie agreed on among historians. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 16:49:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So because you can't see the validity of my point (which I feel is VERY valid - maybe I'm just nuts), I am being 'obtuse'?
Just because 99% of the people can overlook the point I am trying to make (or don't even see it, which I believe is your case), doesn't mean it doesn't bother the crap out of me.
Azuth made a good point - the stock market crashed, and then the Great Depression happened. You can't [say?] the Stock Market crashed, and kept crashing, or that the depression occurred, and then kept occurring.
With respect to the Depression, yes you can. This is why we have "present progressive" verb tenses. While the grammatically correct term is depressing, people were experiencing the Great Depression for nearly (or over?) a decade. We didn't decide when it ended until many years later, and that was based on financial data. If you asked the common person, his or her definition of when it began and ended is based on his or her own life experiences. People in the stock market experienced it much sooner than, say, farmers, who didn't experience it until the dust bowl kicked in.
I think this is very relevant to the thread - the new terminology 4e introduced to the setting is ill-defined, and one of the many reasons people couldn't 'get into it'. If the author/designers don't even know precisely what something is (like the Shadoweave all throughout 3e), then how are we supposed to?
I asked a simple question - Are large chunks of terrain and entire racial groups STILL being dumped into FR in 1479 DR?
Erik already answered this, so I will refrain.
If not, then the initial catastrophe is over (no matter what you wish to call it), so it can no longer be used by DMs.
Now MT, this is just silly. A DM can do anything in his or her game. If you're speaking to ambiguity in the published product, then yes, I agree, but that does not prevent a DM from doing anything.
And I am still onboard for the 'one canon' one Realms' approach - I am just hoping that by 'picking at all the scabs', someone will see those weak-spots in the lore and do something about it, before 5eFR is released.
MT, I think you're making a good point. It doesn't seem 'obtuse' to me. I agree that the terminology (and the timeline immediately after the Spellplague) has been ill-defined in 4E.
I disagree on the terminology, I agree on the timeline.
For example, I don't really know if the "Abeir" event happened as part of the Spellplague, or as an after-effect, or as a separate kind of cataclysm.
Everything happened after Mystra's "death." That is the only known certainty. What if Abeir appeared over many years as different parts of the Weave grew weaker and collapsed? Similar to the referenced Bubonic Plague, it doesn't just happen in a day, it takes time for it to happen and spread across the land.
To me, "Spellplague" encompasses all of the 4E changes. That's how people generally talk about it. But this is bad, because we're talking about at least a period of 10-100 years in duration.
I would say that is incorrect. I would argue it's the Spellplague and its after effects. There is nothing to indicate that Mystra's death had anything to do with other deities disappearing.
I think the spellplague itself can and should be restricted to the events of Mystra's murder and the subsequent wave of damaging energy that happened afterwards. But the problem is that spellplague itself is responsible for igniting or causing these other events:
- the reordering of the planes
- the merging of some planes to become a new Feywild and Shadowfell
- the crash of Abeir and its effects
- the leftover spellplague energy that was left in pockets
Cause and Effect. Exactly.
The last one especially could be called the "Wailing Years" but- and this is a big but - we don't really know what happened during those 10 years after Mystra's murder.
I'm in partial agreement. We don't have every specific down to the last citizen's skin condition, but we have large, general events. Mind, we don't have them to a timeline as I've said before and reiterate now, but we know they happened. To be honest, I'm less concerned when they happened as to how they will... "unhappen" and restore the Realms as I knew them, at least in most regards.
Also, both large and small pockets of spellplague energy have been continuing to make damage, changes, and so on, for at least 90 or so years after the Wailing Years.
In a real life situation, people and communities would organically come up with terms, definitions, and explanations for all of these things as separate events (even if the one event touched off and caused all the other later ones). But all we really have to go on, in the game world, is some pretty hazily defined terms. And I agree, that is part of the problem with the way 4E was designed.
True, but there's nothing that demands that we agree on terms, definitions, and explanations IRL. Causation is a wicked thing to attempt to determine. The Civil War was fought over slavery, right? Or that's the common statement. Maybe it was economic factors that really caused it. Maybe it was the British Empire's fault for beginning slavery. I'm sure we can find someone crazy enough to argue that it was somehow the slaves' fault for not being "advanced" enough to fend off the slavers. The point being, every cause has a cause before it. Perhaps Mystra's death was ordained by Ao and Cyric was his agent. As a DM, I need enough back story to entertain my characters. Where I think the vast chasm that must be spanned rests is how much is too much "lore" for a DM. I think the 5E book should be sectioned into "must know" lore, "nice to know" lore, and "for the scholars."
Let's be honest, here. If I have a group going into Whaerloon to rest for the night, they need an inn. I don't need a map of the inn or the city. Adventures was marvelous at providing enough detail that I could run the group into and out of the city with some repetitive people and places. If I wanted to do so, I could create a whole map, and yes, Canon might come along and contradict it. In that case, I tell my players about the giant fire that most of the city to the ground last year, and that such a fact must have been edited out by those nasty editors. (I love my editor, BTW).
Good DMs can take what they have and work with it - even lazy ones like me. Case in point: I once had a Priest of Malar who set a deer free from a trap. I found this so anathema to the faith of Malar that to him, Malar was dead. No contact, no spells, no access to temples, nothing. Of course, Malar still existed, but not to that character. This was never in any published book, and it took him months of IRL gameplay to win back Malar's favor enough to get first level spells. (He was around level 14, if memory serves)
YES, we do need more detail on some of the detail in 4E. But if we're working on 5E here, let's focus on that and only call upon published, canon 4E where we absolutely need it. Please.
Best,
Azuth |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 17:08:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Point is, almost any worldwide phenomena is going to be difficult to assign a neat narrative with a beginning and end. When it's a generic name used to describe a wide variety of observed effects... well, any such period will be a lie agreed on among historians.
Exactly. Ironically, this sort of lends the Spellplague a little bit of historical verisimilitude. (I mean, not saying much, but at least the designers didn't say "here it happened, and it had no lingering effects!" Which would have been silly.)
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
quote:
To me, "Spellplague" encompasses all of the 4E changes. That's how people generally talk about it. But this is bad, because we're talking about at least a period of 10-100 years in duration.
I would say that is incorrect. I would argue it's the Spellplague and its after effects. There is nothing to indicate that Mystra's death had anything to do with other deities disappearing.
^^This.
I do think WotC fostered the impression that the "Spellplague" was the big game-changer and everyone automatically thinks of that as the 4e transitional event, just like the Time of Troubles gave us 3e. At the same time, though, many of the changes had little to nothing to do with the Spellplague itself, though they could be interpreted as influenced by its effects. Causality is a hard thing to say for sure.
quote:
quote:
I think the spellplague itself can and should be restricted to the events of Mystra's murder and the subsequent wave of damaging energy that happened afterwards. But the problem is that spellplague itself is responsible for igniting or causing these other events:
- the reordering of the planes
- the merging of some planes to become a new Feywild and Shadowfell
- the crash of Abeir and its effects
- the leftover spellplague energy that was left in pockets
Cause and Effect. Exactly.
Well, the extent to which the Spellplague is "responsible" for the merging of planes is dubious. I theorized that the unraveling of the Weave broke Ao's "twinning spell,' which caused Abeir and Toril to crash into each other. I think saying Mystra's disappearance caused the reordering of the cosmos is going a little far. It shook up deities' home planes, sure, because those deities were tied to the Realms.
I would strongly advocate for a disconnect between cosmology and the Realms. The 4e cosmology can certainly be used in conjunction with the 4e FR, but there's no reason a DM should be *required* to do that. Sufficient "reveals" (i.e. low-impact retcons) were made to the Realms that you could do that, but I see no reason you can't use the Great Wheel or Tree of Life or whatever cosmology you want, albeit with a couple tweaks as regards deific homelands, etc.
I am a proponent of the concept of "all cosmologies are equally true . . . from a certain point of view." The multiverse isn't something we mortals can understand, and we keep making up metaphors to describe where everything is and how everything works. It's like putting four blind men in a room with an elephant and asking them to describe it: one touches the tusks and says it's something hard and sharp, another the trunk and says its slimy and sucks up things, one a leg and says it's big and strong, etc.
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 12 Mar 2012 22:29:58 |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 17:25:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
quote:
To me, "Spellplague" encompasses all of the 4E changes. That's how people generally talk about it. But this is bad, because we're talking about at least a period of 10-100 years in duration.
I would say that is incorrect. I would argue it's the Spellplague and its after effects. There is nothing to indicate that Mystra's death had anything to do with other deities disappearing.
^^This.
Settled.
I do think WotC fostered the impression that the "Spellplague" was the big game-changer and everyone automatically thinks of that as the 4e transitional event, just like the Time of Troubles gave us 3e. At the same time, though, many of the changes had little to nothing to do with the Spellplague itself, though they could be interpreted as influenced by its effects. Causality is a hard thing to say for sure.
quote:
I think the spellplague itself can and should be restricted to the events of Mystra's murder and the subsequent wave of damaging energy that happened afterwards. But the problem is that spellplague itself is responsible for igniting or causing these other events:
- the reordering of the planes
- the merging of some planes to become a new Feywild and Shadowfell
- the crash of Abeir and its effects
- the leftover spellplague energy that was left in pockets
Cause and Effect. Exactly.
quote:
Well, the extent to which the Spellplague is "responsible" for the merging of planes is dubious. I theorized that the unraveling of the Weave broke Ao's "twinning spell,' which caused Abeir and Toril to crash into each other. I think saying Mystra's disappearance caused the reordering of the cosmos is going a little far. It shook up deities' home planes, sure, because those deities were tied to the Realms.
<snip>
Cheers
I wasn't advocating that everything bulleted must be related to Mystra's Death, but do the citizens of Faerûn really care? Do adventurers really care why it happened? Adventurers should be focused on how to fix things via adventuring. The definition of "fixed" means "resolved to where they are paid or rewarded." So, to extract what I think is meaningful...
- Mystra must be replaced/restored (Ed is handing this)
- The Planes must be settled enough that there's a common understanding of where to go to do what. If I want to visit God X, I go to Plane Y. How they're connected is irrelevant to game play. A portal is enough to get 99.9% of players there.
- We need to know when spellplague events go away in a timeline, when they occurred in a timeline (for those who wish to play "The Wailing Years") and if there are any specific effects that must be documented, such as the effects of casting spells in Wild Magic Zones were for 2E. If it's just "random effects of no consequence" I'll decide if the players glow blue, or if their voices are all an octave higher, or what not.
Did I miss anything with respect to 5E changes?
Cheers,
Azuth |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 20:00:49
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Hey fellow scribes,
What direction would you like to see Thay move in? |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 20:37:38
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I’d like to see Thay at war with itself. I’d like to see Szass Tam’s hold on it lessened from without and within.
Though Unther really took a beating in the Spellplague, I’d like to see remnants of that nation’s populace be the ones to bring about Thay’s undoing.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e)
Topic Locked
