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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 07:25:32
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The apartheid was when scribes wanted to smoother and squash any and all 4E Realms discussions a few years back. Or they wanted any and all 4E Realms discussions to go in it's own special ghetto, I mean section, so they don't have to see anything related to the 4E Realms. Get your facts straight.
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 07:32:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Jakk I have no problem with PC's possibly stopping Shar and Cyric.
What I have a problem with is scribes belittling the 4E Realms. Like it or not it's cannon.
If WotC was to reboot, I would be fine with that.
That is not my point.
My problem is the name calling that is going on towards the 4E Realms...
I don't see crappy names for the ToT Realms.
Maybe Lady Swiftstrike was right...
I agree with you on all points except the last, Brimstone... and I'll leave it there. 
And I've made my apologies several times in the recent (and not-so-recent) past, as I used to be one of the 4E name-callers... I took a few months off from this place, mostly because I was playing Pathfinder in Golarion and 3.5 in a friend's homebrew world (both of which games are still going on, btw), and came back to CK after hearing the announcement about D&D Next. I'm hoping it allows all of us to have the Realms we want, but I don't know if they can accomplish that without a timeline split at 1385DR; as you've mentioned, this kind of crap doesn't happen with the 2nd Edition Realms, even though I would be fine with the ToT not happening too. Anyway, as I mentioned a couple of posts earlier, I'm very tired, so I'm going to sleep very soon. I have one realization to leave with Ed, then I'm off. Good night, all; please try to play nice.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 24 Jan 2012 18:29:39 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 07:34:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
The apartheid was when scribes wanted to smoother and squash any and all 4E Realms discussions a few years back. Or they wanted any and all 4E Realms discussions to go in it's own special ghetto, I mean section, so they don't have to see anything related to the 4E Realms. Get your facts straight.
And here we go with the terms again.
Whose apartheid (I still wonder what was meant with the Jonestown analogy by one poster) is that? those against non-canon discussions, critique of specific authors work, of specific editions or the grognards. As I remember there were no clear borders in the debate concerning a special area for the 4ed. (which I myself was clearly against but as a grognard that is probably just some plot i am a part of right?) and the same suggestion has been made concerning non-canon ideas by the way.
Why do I even come here? |
Edited by - Jorkens on 23 Jan 2012 08:05:15 |
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ROMVS
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 08:34:15
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| Wow so much drama. I'm new here but this is not very welcoming to say the least. I've been playing since the basic set came out and even though all the editions seem to getting farther and farther and more convoluted from the basic set, there are some things that are improving such as multi-classes and specializations. I just hope they don't keep changing it for the sake of changing and selling new sets but rather for easier play and ease of dming. As for the Forgotten Realms, it will remain my favorite settings for fantasy novels. I have most of the FR novels from tattered to new condition except for some of the new ones, I'll buy them later as paperback. Btw, you can read previews on amazon's kindle for android. Great for deciding to buy asap or wait as paperback or in bargain sales. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 09:09:10
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Sorry folks. Bowing out. See you guys and gals around... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 11:40:44
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quote:
Originally posted by ROMVS
Wow so much drama. I'm new here but this is not very welcoming to say the least. I've been playing since the basic set came out and even though all the editions seem to getting farther and farther and more convoluted from the basic set, there are some things that are improving such as multi-classes and specializations. I just hope they don't keep changing it for the sake of changing and selling new sets but rather for easier play and ease of dming. As for the Forgotten Realms, it will remain my favorite settings for fantasy novels. I have most of the FR novels from tattered to new condition except for some of the new ones, I'll buy them later as paperback. Btw, you can read previews on amazon's kindle for android. Great for deciding to buy asap or wait as paperback or in bargain sales.
Youre not kidding. I am fairly new as well but have noticed that 4e generally leads to all out war when discussed.
But to be fair there are some very good discussions about other issues. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 12:42:02
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| Just goes to show how tough it's going to be for wizbro to please everybody. I think that they will just try to please the majority and it seems like the majority don't like the spellplague very much.... |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 13:35:54
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Thanks OMH for feeling that Wizbro should listen to me, I think so too! 
And getting back to the topic, as an avid fan of many iterations of the Realms over the years, there are always going to be things that I love and hate about whatever is current about the Realms. I think the best solution is to move forward with the setting, yet detailing everything they can about different eras of play.
I, for one, would be WAY more willing to buy a product that has varying eras of play within the setting than a product that only focuses on one or possibly two eras of play within that setting. I think the Multi-Era sort of supplements has the best chance of snagging the most amount of fans. Of course there will be hold outs, as I see what Therise says by not supporting supplements if the Spellplauge isn't shelved into an alternate timeline (at least, that what I perceived).
What I don't see happening is an alternative timeline because.....well I feel there would be just too much crap to deal with in terms of setting, NPCs, authors, fans and the like for it to take off the ground. I also don't see them sweeping the Spellplague under the rug or resetting the Realms at a specific point in time that re-shapes what the future might bring. It's perfectly fine for that to happen in our own homegames and I'd even help created someone's version of it, but not the "Official" Realms.
I'd also like to say that I think I'm being pretty resonable as I don't want every single product focusing on the Spellplague/1479 DR Realms. I WANT to see more lore. I want to see what happens to Arylin Moonblade, to Liriel, to the multiple Manshoon Clones, etc. I want to see more fleshing out of the Realms (if not personally, then just to see other's happiness in it's in-depth description and detailing). I don't feel everything has to be 4E (and beyond) with the Realms in the next iteration of Dungeons and Dragons.
I just want the opportuinity to continue my campaigns in the Spellplague and have that be considered on par with everything else. I don't want to have to pick and choose which era or timeline via suppelements and be bummed out because they put out a HUGE and AWESOME book dedicated to Cormyr, but it doesn't have info about how to play (meaning, what's going on or what adventures there are) in 1479 DR or about possible changes during the Spellplague because that forces me to play in that timeline and I just will ignore it. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 14:25:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
...What I don't see happening is an alternative timeline because.....well I feel there would be just too much crap to deal with in terms of setting, NPCs, authors, fans and the like for it to take off the ground...
Same amount of work is required whether it's continued or rebooted into an alternate timeline.
Forge ahead with 4E, and you'll have to attempt to make it palatable for those who didn't like 4E. They're already displeased, so it'd have to be some amazingly good lore, etc. to convince them to come back. Because at the end of this scenario, you have to take the sting out of 4E, and what if people don't like even 30% of these explanations and fixes that have been made?
Go with a reboot and alternate timeline, you don't have to explain anything about 4E. At the branch point, you come up with something new and non-apocalyptic, based on the hooks and roots at the end of 3E. In this version, it also erases the 100-year jump, so all the people who were missed are now "back" and can move on. Sure, you run the risk of turning off 4E enthusiasts, but their alternate timeline is still there - and weren't these the people who wanted lore-light Realms with minimal fuss, anyway?
So really, it's work for WotC either way.
I know which I prefer.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 14:52:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Same amount of work is required whether it's continued or rebooted into an alternate timeline.
Forge ahead with 4E, and you'll have to attempt to make it palatable for those who didn't like 4E. They're already displeased, so it'd have to be some amazingly good lore, etc. to convince them to come back. Because at the end of this scenario, you have to take the sting out of 4E, and what if people don't like even 30% of these explanations and fixes that have been made?
Go with a reboot and alternate timeline, you don't have to explain anything about 4E. At the branch point, you come up with something new and non-apocalyptic, based on the hooks and roots at the end of 3E. In this version, it also erases the 100-year jump, so all the people who were missed are now "back" and can move on. Sure, you run the risk of turning off 4E enthusiasts, but their alternate timeline is still there - and weren't these the people who wanted lore-light Realms with minimal fuss, anyway?
So really, it's work for WotC either way.
I know which I prefer.
Agian, it's Therise's way or the highway and I feel (and hope) that WotC attempts to please more people of ALL eras than shelving the Spellplague fans off onto their little area and going after people who haven't given them a dime in 5 years. At least with supporting ALL eras of play, they can appease people who wish for Realmslore of specific areas and let them decide what to do with that enclosed material. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 15:12:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Same amount of work is required whether it's continued or rebooted into an alternate timeline.
Forge ahead with 4E, and you'll have to attempt to make it palatable for those who didn't like 4E. They're already displeased, so it'd have to be some amazingly good lore, etc. to convince them to come back. Because at the end of this scenario, you have to take the sting out of 4E, and what if people don't like even 30% of these explanations and fixes that have been made?
Go with a reboot and alternate timeline, you don't have to explain anything about 4E. At the branch point, you come up with something new and non-apocalyptic, based on the hooks and roots at the end of 3E. In this version, it also erases the 100-year jump, so all the people who were missed are now "back" and can move on. Sure, you run the risk of turning off 4E enthusiasts, but their alternate timeline is still there - and weren't these the people who wanted lore-light Realms with minimal fuss, anyway?
So really, it's work for WotC either way.
I know which I prefer.
Agian, it's Therise's way or the highway and I feel (and hope) that WotC attempts to please more people of ALL eras than shelving the Spellplague fans off onto their little area and going after people who haven't given them a dime in 5 years. At least with supporting ALL eras of play, they can appease people who wish for Realmslore of specific areas and let them decide what to do with that enclosed material.
It's hardly my way "or the highway", but thanks for totally mischaracterizing me. All I'm saying is that it's a ton of work for WotC no matter what route they go. It's work this way, or it's work that way.
My preferred solution is what's best for me. I do not remotely begin to pretend that it's the best for everyone, or what WotC (or anyone else "should" do). So saying that it's "Therise's way or the highway" is a gross misrepresentation of my position, not to mention more than a little rude.
Just because I explain the conditions under which I'd buy a 5E Realms, that doesn't mean I'm suggesting it's the one, right, true, and only way. However, I have seen many people say (with total conviction) that "forging ahead is the only way to save the Realms"... as if that's pure truth, and they cannot be questioned.
I have stated my preference, under what conditions I'd personally buy a 5E Realms, and that it's just my preference, multiple times. Yet here I am again, having to defend myself for just stating what I personally want.
Thanks so much!
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 23 Jan 2012 15:15:45 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 15:35:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Same amount of work is required whether it's continued or rebooted into an alternate timeline.
An alternate timeline will mean that someone absolutely has to monitor what both timelines do in the "past" that they now share and keep it all straight. That position does not currently exist. Hard decisions have to be made regarding popular NPCs, nations, etc. Do both settings get Elminster or does the Thayan Civil War keep going since it started before the Spellplague, for instance? Someone has to create a product explaining what the hell is going on to the average consumer who doesn't follow everything online and wants to know why there are seemingly two sets of FR books now.
You know what, nevermind. I've tried illustrating what I believe the logistical problems will be and get told I've written a mini novel or have it totally ignored.
quote:
Forge ahead with 4E, and you'll have to attempt to make it palatable for those who didn't like 4E. They're already displeased, so it'd have to be some amazingly good lore, etc. to convince them to come back. Because at the end of this scenario, you have to take the sting out of 4E, and what if people don't like even 30% of these explanations and fixes that have been made?
Why do they have to make it palatable for those who don't like 4E? I agree that's a desireable goal, but I thought the larger goal was to show them that they are still going to make products to cover the parts of the timeline they prefer. Some people will be pleased with nothing short of destroying the 4E setting and to be honest, I think it is a mistake to try to win over those people. It was a mistake to try to win over those who wanted a chunk of the Realms destroyed in the first place, but you don't double down and make the same mistake again in the hopes it will fix things. The bridge has already been crossed and burned, you can't cross it again (and burn it from the other side this time).
quote:
Go with a reboot and alternate timeline, you don't have to explain anything about 4E. At the branch point, you come up with something new and non-apocalyptic, based on the hooks and roots at the end of 3E. In this version, it also erases the 100-year jump, so all the people who were missed are now "back" and can move on. Sure, you run the risk of turning off 4E enthusiasts, but their alternate timeline is still there - and weren't these the people who wanted lore-light Realms with minimal fuss, anyway?
All the people who were missed are back? Khelben died before the Spellplague. Sembia was taken over by Shade, Thay is in the midst of a Civil War, Deep Imaskar's seal has been breached and the future Empress of the surface Imaskari has found the means to achieve her goal, I think Halaster might be dead too, all before the Spellplague.
Why is 4E the alternate? It's the official line right now so logically a change in the past would create the alternate, the non Spellplague timeline. See what I have been trying to get across? One has to be the alternate, and that will lead to dislike before you even release a single product.
As to the much asked for changes, I didn't ask for any of them. I would've voted against them had such a vote occured. However, I enjoy the current setting and want more lore about it. And about the past. How does that square with what you are saying? I think the supporters of the reboot (speaking generally) need to seriously lay off the ideas that they speak for everyone who ever left and that all the people who are against this can be pigeonholed into some neat little box. I didn't ask for the changes. I don't put forth my ideas based on the fear that they will cancel what I like. I will honestly just leave if they do that as they clearly haven't learned anything and the setting may as well be sitting on the deck of the Titanic with the band playing at that point. I don't feel like going down with the ship with another WotC product. It isn't fear, there are plenty of other ways for me to pass the time out there.
To put it in more personal terms, why do I have to get screwed to win you back over and why shouldn't I voice my objection to that idea?
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 15:42:19
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One, it's not personal so please don't take it as such.
Two, if the powers that be ARE looking at this then your opinions might hold more weight than you think. Espically if it becomes something that others rally behind in ernest.
Three, I don't think it's a mischaracterization of "you" as you've stated that it would take a HECK of a lot of changing and modification to include the Spellplague for you to purchase such supplements. So for you, it might just be "drop the spellplague or make it an alternate timeline or I'm out" sort of situation. Am I wrong in this? I was specifically stating that there is little bending on your part in a solution that might be achieved. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 15:47:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
One, it's not personal so please don't take it as such.
Two, if the powers that be ARE looking at this then your opinions might hold more weight than you think. Espically if it becomes something that others rally behind in ernest.
Three, I don't think it's a mischaracterization of "you" as you've stated that it would take a HECK of a lot of changing and modification to include the Spellplague for you to purchase such supplements. So for you, it might just be "drop the spellplague or make it an alternate timeline or I'm out" sort of situation. Am I wrong in this? I was specifically stating that there is little bending on your part in a solution that might be achieved.
How do I -not- take "Again, it's Therise's way or the highway" personally? You're naming me by name, and attaching a misrepresentation to me.
Seriously Diffan, you crossed a major line.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 15:54:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
Why do they have to make it palatable for those who don't like 4E?
They don't, unless they want those customers back.
quote:
All the people who were missed are back?
Depends on when you set the branch point for the alternate timeline.
quote:
To put it in more personal terms, why do I have to get screwed to win you back over and why shouldn't I voice my objection to that idea?
You can't please everyone. Make your opinion known. I'll do the same.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 15:59:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
How do I -not- take "Again, it's Therise's way or the highway" personally? You're naming me by name, and attaching a misrepresentation to me.
Seriously Diffan, you crossed a major line.
May I offer my sincerest apologies? It wasn't mean in any way, shape, or form as a personal attack. It was an acknowledgement of your opinion that there are requirements of the next iteration of D&D to have/make/amend for you to purchase additional Forgotten Realms material. Is this or isn't this the case for you? For me, I can accept them producing infomation that I may personally find unnecessary or irreleveant but I still hope they produce that "as long" as they keep producing info about 1479 DR and later which includes the events of the Spellplague. So for me, it's a deal breaker if they go to an alternative timeline or reset the setting to a certain time fram. Those are my "Diffan's way or the highway" requirements and I'll stand by them.
Again, if I have crossed a line it wasn't due to any attempt to anger or attack you. And if I did so, then I apologize for that. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 16:10:42
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First off, I am looking forward to whatever they do. We all should.
If you liked the old material, they are catering to you.
If you liked the old rules, they will be catering to you.
If you like the new rules, they will be catering to you
If you like the new setting, as of right now, they will continue to cater to you.
At what point did anyone at WotC tell anyone that a certain sub-section of the fanbase won't be supported? Hell! We should all be having a party together right now, not arguing.
I will have to agree with Therise on the Drama point - this is why in the other thread I stopped (aside from the fact I realized I was mistaken about my interpretation of things) - quibbling over who's opinion is right is a road we shouldn't keep going down.
I am a little saddened by the fact that the anti-4e crowd are not so willing to compromise as I would have liked, but I respect their opinions (especially since I agree with most of the reasoning behind those opinions). And I have been trying my damned hardest to champion the cause of the 4e fans, regardless of who's side I am on. Believe you me, its not easy.
This is a Forgotten Realms FANSITE!!! Can we just all forget about editions for awhile, and rejoice in the fact we are being promised a plethora of new Realmslore? If they live up to their promises, we are looking at a veritable Realms Renaissance.
Why in god's name are we still bickering?!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 16:32:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
First off, I am looking forward to whatever they do. We all should.
If you liked the old material, they are catering to you.
If you liked the old rules, they will be catering to you.
If you like the new rules, they will be catering to you
If you like the new setting, as of right now, they will continue to cater to you.
At what point did anyone at WotC tell anyone that a certain sub-section of the fanbase won't be supported? Hell! We should all be having a party together right now, not arguing.
No one did, it's speculative. And I agree that it's interesting to see what they roll out with. They've (wotc) already stated there will be continued support for the Forgotten Realms. Personally, I hope they support EVERY aspect of the Realms, even parts that I'm not particularly fond of because someone else probably is. Even if they were to put out a supplement detailing Mulhorandi/Unther from 0 DR to 1385 DR and then show what's happened to that area AFTER they went into Abier, I'd be more interested and might even buy it even if the whole egyptian-theme isn't my cup of tea.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am a little saddened by the fact that the anti-4e crowd are not so willing to compromise as I would have liked, but I respect their opinions (especially since I agree with most of the reasoning behind those opinions). And I have been trying my damned hardest to champion the cause of the 4e fans, regardless of who's side I am on. Believe you me, its not easy.
Not easy because you don't share the same views or not easy because of the resistance? Or Both? Believe you me, I've really tried to keep things civil and have attempted to mend bridges I possibly burned or burned by WotC. I'd like to think we're a better community now than we were 4 years ago.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This is a Forgotten Realms FANSITE!!! Can we just all forget about editions for awhile, and rejoice in the fact we are being promised a plethora of new Realmslore? If they live up to their promises, we are looking at a veritable Realms Renaissance.
Why in god's name are we still bickering?!
Im just not sure anyomre? But I can hope and pray things continue to get better with the next iteration of Dungeons and Dragons. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 17:19:27
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I think I could enjoy a new edition set after the spellplague, given that efforts are made to mend the "errors" created by said spellplague. This reconstruction is a great opportunity for novels and sourcebooks. The fate of Helm, Mystra and Mask are incoming, but I think many more good stories could be told.
I'd read a serie on the retaking of Thay by the renegade Red Wizards.
I'd read a serie on the resurection of the Drow Pantheon
I'd read a serie on the fall of the city of Shade (not the Shade themselves, but bring a stop to their current overwhelming power).
Maybe some devils are missing their former home in Myth Drannor too.
I said it before, but I really believe that alternate timelines would be a marketing suicide. We need a setting that will appeal to a maximum of fans, and allowing new lore/novels set pre-spellplague.
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Edited by - Kilvan on 23 Jan 2012 17:20:06 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 17:54:57
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I'm not, those are just examples of opportunities for good stories AND fix events that angered some fans. I do not suggest to bring everything back as they were, that would be like a simple reset, I'm saying that we need some construction, not just destruction (something 4e was really fond of).
I'm trying to go halfway here, because complaining about 4e isn't going to help, and WotC are probably not going to reset the Realms. Cynicism and indifference are our worse enemies here (that and us tearing us appart).
And for the record, the possibility of devils trying to take Myth Drannor back does not only make sense, I'm surprised it has not already happenned before the elves were able to secure their position there. |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 18:04:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
At what point did anyone at WotC tell anyone that a certain sub-section of the fanbase won't be supported?
Didn't they already do this with the release of 4E? I think that is exactly what people are peeved about here.
As for why some of us don't consider 4E to be the Realms, a gaming world is much more than a map with familiar places and a similar pantheon of gods, it is the sum of all the characters, organizations, politics, and interactions. And with one fell swoop, 4E basically severed 80%+ of that. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 18:12:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
Didn't they already do this with the release of 4E? I think that is exactly what people are peeved about here.
As for why some of us don't consider 4E to be the Realms, a gaming world is much more than a map with familiar places and a similar pantheon of gods, it is the sum of all the characters, organizations, politics, and interactions. And with one fell swoop, 4E basically severed 80%+ of that.
80%? Really?
Yes, many (most) mortal characters (humans) died of old age. Many immortal were killed. Many gods were destroyed. Many cities/region were changed forever. Counting all that, and let's say you could quantify it (which I doubt), 80% is nowhere near a reasonable approximation.
Again, cynicism will get us nowhere. |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 18:16:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Apex
Didn't they already do this with the release of 4E? I think that is exactly what people are peeved about here.
As for why some of us don't consider 4E to be the Realms, a gaming world is much more than a map with familiar places and a similar pantheon of gods, it is the sum of all the characters, organizations, politics, and interactions. And with one fell swoop, 4E basically severed 80%+ of that.
Did you completely ignore the part about "politics and interactions". That is where the bulk of the 80% comes from (and I am guessing 80% is conservative). The 4E Realms are as unrelated to the "old Realms" as 1912 United States is to 2012 United States.
80%? Really?
Yes, many (most) mortal characters (humans) died of old age. Many immortal were killed. Many gods were destroyed. Many cities/region were changed forever. Counting all that, and let's say you could quantify it (which I doubt), 80% is nowhere near a reasonable approximation.
Again, cynicism will get us nowhere.
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 18:28:46
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| It's true that I've only read 2 novels post-spellplague, but those I've read felt pretty much like the Realms to me. Yup, Waterdeep took a hit, but it's politics remains the same and the "feel" of it is pretty similar. Yes, it changed, but not 80% of it. I won't try to approximate the %, I think it would be a very futile exercise. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 18:32:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I think I could enjoy a new edition set after the spellplague, given that efforts are made to mend the "errors" created by said spellplague. This reconstruction is a great opportunity for novels and sourcebooks. The fate of Helm, Mystra and Mask are incoming, but I think many more good stories could be told.
I'd read a serie on the retaking of Thay by the renegade Red Wizards.
I'd read a serie on the resurection of the Drow Pantheon
I'd read a serie on the fall of the city of Shade (not the Shade themselves, but bring a stop to their current overwhelming power).
Maybe some devils are missing their former home in Myth Drannor too.
I said it before, but I really believe that alternate timelines would be a marketing suicide. We need a setting that will appeal to a maximum of fans, and allowing new lore/novels set pre-spellplague.
I know I said I would stop posting here, but I will try my best to stay both constructive and on-topic.
While I obviously disagree that an alternate timeline would be the wrong way to go (my posts have said as much, of course), I agree that mending their errors is not only possible, but a good idea. The three examples you have given, the drow pantheon resurrection in particular, would be excellent baby steps in fixing the colossal damage they did. Given enough work and effort, as well as listening to what the players want, they can successfully mitigate, even reverse, some of the horrible things they did.
While I agree almost word for word with Therise's assessments of the way the Shattered Realms has impacted and almost destroyed what Ed offered us these many years ago, I differ in that I do believe it can once again rise to what he would have liked to have seen, and without a reboot. The main reason I have advocated a reboot is that I simply don't think Wizbro has got what it takes to make the needed repairs.
Tyrant raises some good points, particularly 'what would you keep the same?' I submit that the same question would apply in any 'Repaired Realms' scenario. For me personally? I would (albeit reluctantly) say that there should be few, if any, actual geographical revamps done. Now, they should give us all the maps. I don't know of anyone here who would disagree with that. All of them. The whole planet should have a 'Page 231' (preferably much larger than the old Page 231) done to reflect the New Toril's continent outlines at the very least.
I would acknowledge that Wizbro's dragonborn-shoehorning required something drastic (and we should accept that some repairs will also of needs be drastic as well), thus the eradication of Unther and the near-fatal mauling of Mulhorand would likely stand as is. No, I'm not thrilled, but at least there was some point to it. In the same vein, Returned Abeir, like it or not, landed where it did - we can't just suddenly move it, likely not without another RSE to further muck things up.
But things can be done to make it palatable to as many people as possible. Can we bring the slaughtered gods back? You bet we can - we know people want Eilistraee, Helm, Vhaeraun, and so forth to be returned, so start with them. Just Do It.
Was there a point to just allowing the Seven Sisters to all be pointlessly slaughtered or expire from old age? No, there actually wasn't...so now that Wizbro knows this, bring them back, one way or another. People, unlike continents, require no RSEs to be returned to their ideal place in the Realms.
Is leaving Zhentil Keep to just sit and become a mouldering ruin something we're fond of? Not to me - the Zhentarim were supposedly the premier Bad Guys...now they're just a really bad caricature of themselves. That too, can be fixed.
And how all of this, you say? Well, now is the time to make some constructive use of that yawning 100-year gap that flabbergasted us (because let's face it - we could have handled the Sellplague if there had been, at best, ten years difference and not a whole century - I could have, anyways).
What plans were made in these 100 years? Who thought ahead? Who saw what was coming down the pike? Did a community of Halruaans phase itself out just before the Blue Fire trashed their kingdom, then phase back to rebuild it? Did Laeral Silverhand actually get trapped in some sort of stasis when the Sellplague ripped through Faerun, and she was only believed to be gone? Will she be pissed about Khelben's demise, or will she find a new...uh...Staff? Why does Qilue Veladorn have red hair after being resurrected? Is it echoes from her actual human parents?
And hey - did the Maztican Calendar abruptly end with no explanation in 1385 DR? Come on - you saw that one coming, you had to. Why did it end like that?
Fixes can be done, and we know they can. I am just tiredly resigned to the fact that Wizbro is not only not up to the task, but doesn't really know what they're doing, to say nothing of not knowing what it is we, as a collective Realms community, actually want.
- OMH |
Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 23 Jan 2012 18:34:58 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 18:50:24
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Yup, that's my point. We (well, "they" actually) just need to worry about not overdoing it. Just resurrecting everyone would be lame, veeery lame. Khelben was my favorite character (he still is in my campaigns), but considering the way he left, it would be kinda awkward to just bring him back. Whatever changes they make, what I want is details (aka, a standalone novel AT LEAST) about them.
You want to bring back Eilistraee? Ok, who wouldn't? But do it well, not just a paragraph in the next campaign setting. Even the whole Tyr-Helm story could have been good if it had been well told. Ok, maybe not good, but you get my point. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 18:58:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Yup, that's my point. We (well, "they" actually) just need to worry about not overdoing it. Just resurrecting everyone would be lame, veeery lame. Khelben was my favorite character (he still is in my campaigns), but considering the way he left, it would be kinda awkward to just bring him back. Whatever changes they make, what I want is details (aka, a standalone novel AT LEAST) about them.
You want to bring back Eilistraee? Ok, who wouldn't? But do it well, not just a paragraph in the next campaign setting. Even the whole Tyr-Helm story could have been good if it had been well told. Ok, maybe not good, but you get my point.
Absolutely! If some thought is put to this, they have the chance to tell some really good stories. Hell, ESdB says to keep our eyes open for the 'Helm' thing (my only concern is that it involves, exclusively, words like 'Nook' and 'Kindle'), and I am very much looking forward to that.
So much could be done, and all it would take is for Wizbro to decide they're going to do it.
- OMH |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 20:19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
Why do they have to make it palatable for those who don't like 4E?
They don't, unless they want those customers back.
Sure. But, making it palatable and destroying it outright (or sitting it in a corner away from the other kids) aren't the same. Change and growth are a far more positive step. What I meant was, if those who dislike 4E will only return with the Spellplague and 4E completely ignored or stuck in an alternate timeline, why should they try to appease that mentality when it will obviously cost them current customers? I am not commenting on the validity of anyone's opinion here. I have mine and you have yours, neither of us is right or wrong. You have your reasons for wanting what you want and I am not questioning them. There is a line that would get me to quit too and if it happens I may feel the same as you. What I am saying is why would the company try to appeal to someone who doesn't show much interest in meeting them halfway in a solution that doesn't have a foreseeable and potentially quite negative outcome? This did not work out very well for them last time. I think the post Spellplague setting can be adjusted without much trouble to meet people halfway, and in the meantime they will hopefully open up the back catalog to purchase and create some new material for the older eras. I think Harpell and EsdB have the right of it, which is not to say I think you are wrong. You want what you want, just as I do.
quote:
quote:
All the people who were missed are back?
Depends on when you set the branch point for the alternate timeline.
Who makes that call? The main complaint seems to be the Spellplague, but I know those other issues are sticking points for some people too. Do they reset back to the appearance of Shade? The ToT? Pre-Gray Box? I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, this is a real problem that I haven't seen an answer to.
Here is the situation as I see it, and no this won't be short. There are 2 primary groups of Realms fans (in very broad terms), those who are still buying products (for this purpose it doesn't matter if they are taking them out back and burning them 5 minutes later if they are still buying them) and those who aren't. To be 100% crystal clear on that comment, that is in no way meant to be a judgement call on either group nor do I personally judge anyone based on that criteria. The former is a quantity that WotC can take a pretty good guess as to it's current size based on sales data. The latter becomes tricky because it is relatively unknown who stopped at which editions (and for what reasons) and who jumped on board later, not to mention we don't know how much TSR sales data they actually have (I assume a lot of it, but who knows). However, they do have relative sales to compare to get a broad idea. Right now there are people who left that are taking a second look and watching to see what happens to determine if they come back. The pro "stuff before the Spellplague" is quite vocal, but they aren't unified beyond their desire to be rid of the Spellplague. That's step one, we got that, but what's step two and how does it gain more than it loses? There are different answers to my question I posed above (the "which point in the timeline question"). These people who are taking a second look likely feel they have been burned once (ToT, Shade, Spellplague, Drizzt, whatever) so I believe their tolerance for what they perceive to be bad moves on the part of WotC is likely quite low. If they come back I believe it won't take much for them to leave again as they have already shown that they are more than willing to leave (that is not a negative, everyone has a line) if something they dislike enough comes down the line.
So, I see two things happening with a reset/alternate timeline because of the above. The first is that whoever doesn't get the reset they want may decide they are done for good and curse the name WotC until their dying breath because now they have been burned twice and some people will think they are quite justified for doing so and will thus take their advice to never give WotC a cent. Pro 4E people might be right there with them, who knows. In a hobby with a large word of mouth component this is not a desirable outcome. On the flip side, if there is no reboot, then is anyone going to take someone complaining about that seriously when they find out no one said there was going to be a reboot? It's like complaining that Star Trek isn't Star Wars. Why would anyone think that it is or have an expectation that it would suddenly become so? The other thing that will happen is that the designer will be walking on egg shells because they know one "wrong" step and there goes a chunk of customers. Now, I can see how that sounds appealing, I really can. But, it leads to stagnation and that's death. Things have to happen. They don't have to be big, but they have to happen. Characters have to die or it becomes a joke. Places have to change. The Spellplague was an overdose of this thought process, I agree, but on some scale change has to happen or you have no story.
Markustay, you are quite an optimist and I hope that you are right about WotC coming through this time. I too am optimistic about that, or trying to be anyway.
Kilvan/Old Man Harpell, those are the types of solutions I am hoping will happen. As Erik said, they can smooth off the rough edges if they try. I know it won't be enough for some people, but that's their choice and they are entilted to it. That isn't a slam, I have no interest in trying to force anyone to like anything and nothing good ever comes out of it. If anyone truly hates the Spellplague to the point that they won't return if it isn't somehow negated/overturned/shoved into a parallel dimension/whatever, and then that doesn't happen, I don't fault them for not returning. They like what they like and I don't think that's unreasonable.
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 15:54:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
...What I am saying is why would the company try to appeal to someone who doesn't show much interest in meeting them halfway in a solution that doesn't have a foreseeable and potentially quite negative outcome?...
Why the hell should I bend over backwards and "meet them halfway" when I still have yet to see change favorable to what I want? These are not relatives, and I am not in an intimate relationship with them. They are a company that makes a product. Either I like it and become a purchasing customer, or I don't.
Why would they want me back as a customer? Well, let's see. Considering that I was loyal to the Realms until the Spellplague idiocy, and purchased a -lot- from them every year for decades, I suppose that counts for nothing?
These new customers, half of which sound vaguely disgruntled to me, have been purchasing the "new Realms" for three years. Compare that to my decades of purchases. What is the purchase of one 4E FRCG and a couple novels to the years and years of purchases I made? Honestly, from my perspective, they'd better pull their heads out of the sand and do some real customer analysis.
quote:
Who makes that call? The main complaint seems to be the Spellplague, but I know those other issues are sticking points for some people too. Do they reset back to the appearance of Shade? The ToT? Pre-Gray Box? I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, this is a real problem that I haven't seen an answer to.
I have stated my preference earlier. I'm not going to get into a repetitive back-and-forth guessing game on this, where you continually tell me I'm wrong based on your feelings.
WotC has, and will, make the call on the Realms. I refuse to speculate on whether or not they will listen to what any customer wants. That is for them to figure out, and honestly they'd better to a much better job this time around if they want former customers to come back. Speculation without data and making choices on what "sounds good" internally did not serve them well.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 24 Jan 2012 15:57:10 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 16:53:13
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{sigh}
@Diffan - because taking the 'middle ground' hasn't seemed to work-out well as 'peace maker' - it makes me a pariah. I am arguing with both sides (four sides? I am losing count..), and not just here.
At least over on the Paizo boards, the anti-4e people - for the most part - are looking forward to 5e, and not 'out of spite'. They are the 'rebels' - the folk that left their safe ports and sailed to new shores (maudlin... I know...) They are not as loyal to Paizo as everyone thinks (most of them) - they are loyal to QUALITY PRODUCTS. You give them what they want, and they'll be back. I've been 'slumming' (sorry  ) over there for the past couple weeks, and most of the PF people are eagerly anticipating what WotC brings to the table this time around. They are gamers, who just want stuff they can use. Most of them don't hate WotC - they hate what 4e did to D&D and FR. Everyone is a winner with a revitalized D&D, and they know this.
Its the 4e people that are showing the most hatred toward 5e, IMHO. I don't blame them - its like a slap in the face. If they don't tread carefully with 5e (and continue to support 4e), they could lose them. There is just no way of knowing if the amount of new fans that come back will out-number the 4e fans they will lose (without seeing some hard numbers concerning the current groups).
And once again, I think an alternate timeline is akin to sticking the 4e people 'in a corner', where they 'won't break anything'. Its not right, no matter how I feel about the 4e Realms. It wasn't right when WotC did it to us four years ago, and its not right now.
They really should do the circa 1386DR thing, but now I'm just harping on it. It is an elegant solution, when you really think about it. ANY lore, form ANY era, is applicable. But whatever. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2012 16:55:52 |
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Reboot of the Realms for 5th edition.
