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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 03:18:22
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Splitting the timeline might be something that most of us want - myself included - but I don't think it will do anything to end the edition war.
Thats what I am worried about. And not just 3e vs 4e - thats just the most inflamatory.
What if fans of 1e claim to the 2e people "but the ToT never happened!", and then the 2e people tell the 3e people Shade never returned and dwarves don't do magic.
Yes, the differences were greater, but by giving folks lore in every era - which on the surface seems ideal - you also cement people into those eras, and those editions. What difference will making a system that appeals to all edition-fans be if everyone also has a timeline preference? How will the 4e fans play with the 1e fans, even if the rules are the same? It resolves nothing - we are angry with setting changes, not rules changes. Hell, most of us don't even play.
I'm not saying it can't work, but they really have their work cut out for them. Regardless of rules, how do you get someone like Diffan to play a game with someone like Wooly? I'm not saying they can't be friends, or that they can't agree on a set of rules - what I am saying is that they prefer completely different approaches to the setting, a century apart. The modular approach (including the 'release stuff for all eras' thing) doesn't resolve that problem, which is THE PROBLEM.
If I'm DMing, do I say "Diffan, you are a Warlord Tiefling in Shade in 1479, and Woolly, you are a circa 1e Barbarian Hamsterman in Suzail in 1356... okay, what are you guys gonna do?" How do I run that mess? On paper, the modular approach to editions sounds great, but I don't see it working in the field.
I had a LOT more here (several paragraphs), but erased it all. Suffice it to say that we should just step back and let them do this 'lore for all eras' thing, and I truly think the problems will resolve themselves, eventually. Everyone should just keep buying sources and novels from their era of choice, and let the cards fall where they may. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 03:31:59
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I feel that some issues need to be looked at here.
Not getting a reboot they have no real reason to expect to happen.
Well...not exactly true. Now, if you mean 'they cannot trust Wizbro to actually give the fans what they want', then yes, I agree. If a lot of fans thought they could repair the Shattered Realms to a compatible Forgotten Realms state, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. And since the entire edition reboot idea has gone public, with the 'subtle' suggestion they will listen to the Realms aficionados ( ), why shouldn't there be at least be a small inkling of hope (and in my case, that is all it is...very, very small) that we will see something awesome like a reboot would be?
One of the two timelines won't pull it's weight and get cancelled and piss off a good chunk of the fanbase.
This is entirely possible. I am assuming that the reason that it is almost solely 4th Edition Realms fans who have been stridently opposed to the dual timelines option, is the realization that the Sellplague era would likely come up with the short straw, and that WotC would 'cut their losses' (as it were) in favor of the path that is likely to generate greater profits, in other words, the reboot. I have seen or heard nothing that makes me think it would be otherwise.
Folks like Diffan have expressed their dislike of a reboot, all the while offering constructive solutions as to how to make the Shattered Realms back into the Forgotten Realms (while others have simply expressed their dislike). If we could be guaranteed we would have someone like Diffan in charge of revamping what is already there, a lot of us would drop the subject (I know I would). But we can't. Wizbro doesn't use normal thought patterns when deciding stuff like this. That was one of the reasons they blew the Realms up in the first place. And we don't (nor should we) expect them to start using rational thought when (attempting to start) fixing what they broke.
And I have yet to see any substantial argument why a new, alternate timeline would not work. People have essentially said 'I hate this idea' without saying why an alternate timeline wouldn't appeal to the Realms fans, or why it wouldn't sell well. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 03:44:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm not saying it can't work, but they really have their work cut out for them. Regardless of rules, how do you get someone like Diffan to play a game with someone like Wooly? I'm not saying they can't be friends, or that they can't agree on a set of rules - what I am saying is that they prefer completely different approaches to the setting, a century apart. The modular approach (including the 'release stuff for all eras' thing) doesn't resolve that problem, which is THE PROBLEM.
If I'm DMing, do I say "Diffan, you are a Warlord Tiefling in Shade in 1479, and Woolly, you are a circa 1e Barbarian Hamsterman in Suzail in 1356... okay, what are you guys gonna do?" How do I run that mess? On paper, the modular approach to editions sounds great, but I don't see it working in the field.
I like to believe I am a reasonably optimistic guy and that there are solutions to most of the problems we face in this life. However, I believe the problem you bring up is not one that WotC can solve. That is one that Wooly and Diffan (to use your example) have to solve somehow. If they want to play in different timelines, telling them there is only one (which has a reasonable chance of not being the one either of them prefer) will not work. Telling each of them they can continue down their own version of continuity that embraces or ignores random ire-inducing events at their whim will not solve their problem. Only they can solve their problem. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 03:54:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
I feel that some issues need to be looked at here.
Not getting a reboot they have no real reason to expect to happen.
Well...not exactly true. Now, if you mean 'they cannot trust Wizbro to actually give the fans what they want', then yes, I agree. If a lot of fans thought they could repair the Shattered Realms to a compatible Forgotten Realms state, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. And since the entire edition reboot idea has gone public, with the 'subtle' suggestion they will listen to the Realms aficionados (), why shouldn't there be at least be a small inkling of hope (and in my case, that is all it is...very, very small) that we will see something awesome like a reboot would be?
One of the two timelines won't pull it's weight and get cancelled and piss off a good chunk of the fanbase.
This is entirely possible. I am assuming that the reason that it is almost solely 4th Edition Realms fans who have been stridently opposed to the dual timelines option, is the realization that the Sellplague era would likely come up with the short straw, and that WotC would 'cut their losses' (as it were) in favor of the path that is likely to generate greater profits, in other words, the reboot. I have seen or heard nothing that makes me think it would be otherwise.
Folks like Diffan have expressed their dislike of a reboot, all the while offering constructive solutions as to how to make the Shattered Realms back into the Forgotten Realms (while others have simply expressed their dislike). If we could be guaranteed we would have someone like Diffan in charge of revamping what is already there, a lot of us would drop the subject (I know I would). But we can't. Wizbro doesn't use normal thought patterns when deciding stuff like this. That was one of the reasons they blew the Realms up in the first place. And we don't (nor should we) expect them to start using rational thought when (attempting to start) fixing what they broke.
And I have yet to see any substantial argument why a new, alternate timeline would not work. People have essentially said 'I hate this idea' without saying why an alternate timeline wouldn't appeal to the Realms fans, or why it wouldn't sell well.
OMH can you please quit belittling the Realms.
It has no place in these halls.
Sure I understand that you don't like the 4E Realms, understandable, we all get it.
Quit kicking her while she is down.
For the record I am a fan of the Realms, all versions of it even if I find parts alittle distasteful. Doesn't mean that I will badmouth it!
IT'S TIME THE MODS PUT A STOP TO THIS NONSENSE! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 23 Jan 2012 03:55:14 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 04:23:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm not saying it can't work, but they really have their work cut out for them. Regardless of rules, how do you get someone like Diffan to play a game with someone like Wooly? I'm not saying they can't be friends, or that they can't agree on a set of rules - what I am saying is that they prefer completely different approaches to the setting, a century apart. The modular approach (including the 'release stuff for all eras' thing) doesn't resolve that problem, which is THE PROBLEM.
If I'm DMing, do I say "Diffan, you are a Warlord Tiefling in Shade in 1479, and Woolly, you are a circa 1e Barbarian Hamsterman in Suzail in 1356... okay, what are you guys gonna do?" How do I run that mess? On paper, the modular approach to editions sounds great, but I don't see it working in the field.
I like to believe I am a reasonably optimistic guy and that there are solutions to most of the problems we face in this life. However, I believe the problem you bring up is not one that WotC can solve. That is one that Wooly and Diffan (to use your example) have to solve somehow. If they want to play in different timelines, telling them there is only one (which has a reasonable chance of not being the one either of them prefer) will not work. Telling each of them they can continue down their own version of continuity that embraces or ignores random ire-inducing events at their whim will not solve their problem. Only they can solve their problem.
Yes, it's my problem that the setting I liked was changed into something I didn't like. What was I thinking, making WotC revamp everything? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 04:23:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
I feel that some issues need to be looked at here.
Not getting a reboot they have no real reason to expect to happen.
Well...not exactly true. Now, if you mean 'they cannot trust Wizbro to actually give the fans what they want', then yes, I agree. If a lot of fans thought they could repair the Shattered Realms to a compatible Forgotten Realms state, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. And since the entire edition reboot idea has gone public, with the 'subtle' suggestion they will listen to the Realms aficionados (), why shouldn't there be at least be a small inkling of hope (and in my case, that is all it is...very, very small) that we will see something awesome like a reboot would be?
Have they ever rebooted a series with as much novel and suppliment support as the Realms? Why would anyone expect them to start now? I keep seeing referrence to a Dragonlance reboot and it seems to be generally viewed as a negative thing. I haven't seen anything from WotC that could be read to suggest they are considering a reboot without a heavy does of hope and wishing. Most IPs don't reboot. Everytime DC does (to use an example of one that does enough to be notable) it is seemingly met with "this crap again". I've noticed a few people who say they want a reboot yet admit it isn't a hot idea. I don't really see the opposite opinion (don't want a reboot but think it could work) gaining any traction. That's why it's an odd expectation.
quote:
One of the two timelines won't pull it's weight and get cancelled and piss off a good chunk of the fanbase.
This is entirely possible. I am assuming that the reason that it is almost solely 4th Edition Realms fans who have been stridently opposed to the dual timelines option, is the realization that the Sellplague era would likely come up with the short straw, and that WotC would 'cut their losses' (as it were) in favor of the path that is likely to generate greater profits, in other words, the reboot. I have seen or heard nothing that makes me think it would be otherwise.
What have you seen to make you think it would go that way? I know it's nothing solid because considerable discussion of this topic has lead to no real numbers being put forth. I notice no one wants to ask the what if questions that could very well happen. What if Ed says he wants no part of a reboot? What if Drizzt doesn't reboot? We do know he is the money machine and he is presently in the Post Spellplague timeline. What if you are completely wrong and 4E emerges the victor? What if all that happens is the fanbase splits and neither part makes enough to support the line? 4E fans seem to be just fine with their set up, will 3E fans be happy when Bruce Cordell takes another crack at their part of the timeline?
Give these questions serious thought because there is nothing saying that isn't how everything will go down. Resources and people are finite, more so if you go splitting them between two timelines. Who's going to go where and how does the other side not take it as a sign one side is favored over the other? Tell me how this really doesn't end in one side or the other (or both) crying foul over favoritism.
quote:
Folks like Diffan have expressed their dislike of a reboot, all the while offering constructive solutions as to how to make the Shattered Realms back into the Forgotten Realms (while others have simply expressed their dislike). If we could be guaranteed we would have someone like Diffan in charge of revamping what is already there, a lot of us would drop the subject (I know I would). But we can't. Wizbro doesn't use normal thought patterns when deciding stuff like this. That was one of the reasons they blew the Realms up in the first place. And we don't (nor should we) expect them to start using rational thought when (attempting to start) fixing what they broke.
They listened to people screaming for radical change and got too creative with how to give it to them. I am of the opinion that a reboot or alternate timeline constitutes another radical change. All I can say is, learn from the past and be careful what you wish for.
quote:
And I have yet to see any substantial argument why a new, alternate timeline would not work. People have essentially said 'I hate this idea' without saying why an alternate timeline wouldn't appeal to the Realms fans, or why it wouldn't sell well.
Really? Let me give it a spin.
1) Business. WotC is operating on finite resources (money, talent, personel, time, etc). D&D is given a portion of this. FR is given a portion of that portion. Assuming they divide the timeline, there is no guarantee these resources will increase. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Assuming they do, it won't double. Assuming they don't, they have to split their resources between timelines.
So, if they have to split existing resources, how do they best allocate them? An even 50/50 split between Timeline A and B? That sounds good and fair, but I believe they will review sales and marketing feedback and one will be favored over the other. Based on that it could be either one. Now we need to take into account that most companies don't like to admit they were wrong. Factoring that in, I know which timeline I would put my money on (4E and onward) getting more resources.
However, for the moment let's assume they are split evenly. How do you evenly split Ed Greenwood? Does he have time to write books for both timelines? What about Erik? Paul? Richard? Elaine? They won't all be able to do it, so one side or the other gets left out of their favorite authors. How do they determine who gets what? How do they placate the side that feels most left out? The same applies to game designers.
Moving on from that, eventually one or the other will generate higher sales. This will lead to the timeline with lower sales getting less attention. It's smart business to put your money behind the winner. Maybe the secondary one limps along, or maybe it finally gets completely cut. What happens to the fans of that branch? They aren't going to like WotC for dropping their setting and some of them are going to feel bitter at the fans of the other setting. I believe this is the inevitable outcome.
If that happens, how long does it take for them to decide one or the other is the better horse to back?
Of course, we are also assuming that designers and authors will be able to easily move back and forth and keep everything straight because there will be some crossover in talent. We are also assuming some of the talent won't state a preferrence and stick to it, leaving their fans that backed the other timeline with the choice of continuing to buy their books despite being in a setting they don't want to be a part of or missing their favorite author. I believe this will also lead to more hard feelings between the fan groups.
There is also potential increased printing costs. If the fan base splits, there won't be a need to print as many copies for material of either timeline because neither will sell as many as they currently sell. This means shorter print runs, which depending on their contracts could increase the cost per copy because they are losing some of their bulk discount with a smaller print run.
I also believe all of the new leg work and division of labor needed for this type of project will increase the end price of the products because of increased costs, real or imaginary (they are a company out to make money after all).
2) The fans. I believe that once people see that WotC is willing to to make drastic changes based on massive complaining, the complaining will never end. To use a real world example, it's why you don't negotiate with terrorists. Once you do, anyone with the means to endanger something you like can get whatever they want out of you. I am absolutely not trying to say those who dislike 4E are terrorists or in any real way comparable to them or their goals. I am saying that by blindly giving in to demands the company opens themselves up to an endless stream of complaints that will eventually include, "but you gave them what they wanted" which will simply magnify their anger because now WotC has not only slighted them in some way in the past (leading to their initial complaint) but they have now shown that they do not matter as much as those Anti Spellplague folks. I see it as an unending problem once it starts. All one has to do is look at the current situation. "Those people who complained got their wish with the Spellplague, why can't we get what we want?". WotC is unlikely to take the lead and be the bigger man here so it's up to the fans.
Splitting the timeline will further split the base. Other groups will see what a concentrated campaign of publicly airing their problems can accomplish and they will organize accordingly. Maybe the Spellplague is the most dividing part, but it isn't the only dividing part. This will encourage the other segments to become more and more vocal demanding the same treatment and further divide the fans as smaller groups feel like they are less important.
Fans may also be split for purely economic reasons. Some people simply can't or won't spend enough money to support both lines. Some people won't want to deal with the headache of trying to remember what has and hasn't happened in two different timeline. Likewise with time concerns. Groups will be forced to choose one or the other. This is already true, however, WotC isn't presently trying to sell to one of those two. To wrap this back around to business, now they will be putting out new Pre-Spellplague material which might draw off some 4E/5E fans (cutting into 4E/5E sales) in the hope that the group presently not being catered to will decide to start buying material again. Maybe that will happen, maybe it won't. I honestly have no idea how a company could even begin to measure that possibility, leading me to believe that it is a supreme gamble for them with high cost and little chance of a payoff.
3) Plots. How does the non Spellplague timeline proceed? What is okay with copying from the Spellplague timeline and what isn't? What about events that began before the Spellplague? Does Thay still undergo a civil war? Does it still go the same way, barring Spellplague specific parts? Since it's pre Spellplague, does Shade still control Sembia? How do the events of The Ghost King change? Do they? If there isn't some change then it's just the same only Mystra didn't die and certain bits didn't blow up. If there are big changes, will they be logical or will they just be made to make people say "see, it's different now." I believe this particular line of thought stands an excellent chance to end up just as messed up as the Spellplague.
4) Overlap. Once the Non Spellplague timeline gets around to killing known characters or making them immortal or whatever, should the Post Spellplague setting feel any need to make them match if their fate can be reasonably assumed to also be the same in the Post Spellplague setting? What happens when both sides want to use something Pre Spellplague but their uses are contradictory? Who wins and gets their way? As an example, the Post Spellplague setting needs to have Manshoon do something in the Pre Spellplague era that set a plot into motion that is now coming to fruition involving some previously detailed artifact. The Non Spellplague folks want to use the same artifact for a different purpose and their story requires it to be well beyond Manshoon's grasp at that point in time. Not the best example but hopefully it illustrates my point. So, now you need someone to control Post Spellplague point continuity in two timelines, and someone to ensure both timelines don't have a contradictory moment in their mutual past.
5) NPC overload. It's obvious to me that a number of popular NPCs are going to survive the time jump. Elminster, the Simbul, Storm, Manshoon, Szass Tam, The Shade Princes, Drizzt, etc. Do they decide which timeline gets which, or do they both get them? If they both get them, what stops them from being endlessly used in both to drive sales? Will it actually drive sales or will people get sick of reading about the same people in two timelines? Alternatively, will the authors have the time to write about them in two timelines? If not, who gets who?
I can probably come up with more reasons if I really try, but this should hopefully better explain my point. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 04:24:28
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Perhaps people who are against a reboot shouldn't post in the reboot thread. Why are you so threatened by our desire to talk about a reboot?
We are not belittling the Realms, we are not kicking them while they're down.
We are, like you, exploring our thoughts on why we want things a certain way. Let us do that without constantly interrupting us. PLEASE.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 04:24:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm not saying it can't work, but they really have their work cut out for them. Regardless of rules, how do you get someone like Diffan to play a game with someone like Wooly? I'm not saying they can't be friends, or that they can't agree on a set of rules - what I am saying is that they prefer completely different approaches to the setting, a century apart. The modular approach (including the 'release stuff for all eras' thing) doesn't resolve that problem, which is THE PROBLEM.
If I'm DMing, do I say "Diffan, you are a Warlord Tiefling in Shade in 1479, and Woolly, you are a circa 1e Barbarian Hamsterman in Suzail in 1356... okay, what are you guys gonna do?" How do I run that mess? On paper, the modular approach to editions sounds great, but I don't see it working in the field.
I like to believe I am a reasonably optimistic guy and that there are solutions to most of the problems we face in this life. However, I believe the problem you bring up is not one that WotC can solve. That is one that Wooly and Diffan (to use your example) have to solve somehow. If they want to play in different timelines, telling them there is only one (which has a reasonable chance of not being the one either of them prefer) will not work. Telling each of them they can continue down their own version of continuity that embraces or ignores random ire-inducing events at their whim will not solve their problem. Only they can solve their problem.
Yes, it's my problem that the setting I liked was changed into something I didn't like. What was I thinking, making WotC revamp everything?
Dude, really? Did you actually read what I wrote and what I responded to before you launched into snide mode this time? Care to try again and make it look like you actually put some thought into it? |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 04:26:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Perhaps people who are against a reboot shouldn't post in the reboot thread. Why are you so threatened by our desire to talk about a reboot?
We are not belittling the Realms, we are not kicking them while they're down.
We are, like you, exploring our thoughts on why we want things a certain way. Let us do that without constantly interrupting us. PLEASE.
I believe the opening question was "for or against?" I may be out of line, but that tells me that "against" should be free to say so. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 04:31:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm not saying it can't work, but they really have their work cut out for them. Regardless of rules, how do you get someone like Diffan to play a game with someone like Wooly? I'm not saying they can't be friends, or that they can't agree on a set of rules - what I am saying is that they prefer completely different approaches to the setting, a century apart. The modular approach (including the 'release stuff for all eras' thing) doesn't resolve that problem, which is THE PROBLEM.
If I'm DMing, do I say "Diffan, you are a Warlord Tiefling in Shade in 1479, and Woolly, you are a circa 1e Barbarian Hamsterman in Suzail in 1356... okay, what are you guys gonna do?" How do I run that mess? On paper, the modular approach to editions sounds great, but I don't see it working in the field.
I like to believe I am a reasonably optimistic guy and that there are solutions to most of the problems we face in this life. However, I believe the problem you bring up is not one that WotC can solve. That is one that Wooly and Diffan (to use your example) have to solve somehow. If they want to play in different timelines, telling them there is only one (which has a reasonable chance of not being the one either of them prefer) will not work. Telling each of them they can continue down their own version of continuity that embraces or ignores random ire-inducing events at their whim will not solve their problem. Only they can solve their problem.
Yes, it's my problem that the setting I liked was changed into something I didn't like. What was I thinking, making WotC revamp everything?
Dude, really? Did you actually read what I wrote and what I responded to before you launched into snide mode this time? Care to try again and make it look like you actually put some thought into it?
You know, it gets rather tiresome to see continual comments that people that disagree with you aren't thinking.
You say WotC can't solve the problem. I say they can. But oh, yeah, I've "not thought it through all the way" on this idea that just happens to disagree with yours. And when you tell me it's my problem and I disagree, I am once more not thinking.
If you don't want snide remarks, try a little consideration on your own part. Quit talking down to people and see how they reply. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 04:33:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Perhaps people who are against a reboot shouldn't post in the reboot thread. Why are you so threatened by our desire to talk about a reboot?
We are not belittling the Realms, we are not kicking them while they're down.
We are, like you, exploring our thoughts on why we want things a certain way. Let us do that without constantly interrupting us. PLEASE.
I believe the opening question was "for or against?" I may be out of line, but that tells me that "against" should be free to say so.
Share your opinion, but stop telling people who do not share it that they are wrong.
18D / Brimstone needs to take a chill and stop berating people.
I mean FFS, your constant harping that "it's a mistake, it shouldn't happen" is just repetitive. We get it, we get your point.
WE DO NOT SHARE IT
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 04:33:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm not saying it can't work, but they really have their work cut out for them. Regardless of rules, how do you get someone like Diffan to play a game with someone like Wooly? I'm not saying they can't be friends, or that they can't agree on a set of rules - what I am saying is that they prefer completely different approaches to the setting, a century apart. The modular approach (including the 'release stuff for all eras' thing) doesn't resolve that problem, which is THE PROBLEM.
If I'm DMing, do I say "Diffan, you are a Warlord Tiefling in Shade in 1479, and Woolly, you are a circa 1e Barbarian Hamsterman in Suzail in 1356... okay, what are you guys gonna do?" How do I run that mess? On paper, the modular approach to editions sounds great, but I don't see it working in the field.
I like to believe I am a reasonably optimistic guy and that there are solutions to most of the problems we face in this life. However, I believe the problem you bring up is not one that WotC can solve. That is one that Wooly and Diffan (to use your example) have to solve somehow. If they want to play in different timelines, telling them there is only one (which has a reasonable chance of not being the one either of them prefer) will not work. Telling each of them they can continue down their own version of continuity that embraces or ignores random ire-inducing events at their whim will not solve their problem. Only they can solve their problem.
Yes, it's my problem that the setting I liked was changed into something I didn't like. What was I thinking, making WotC revamp everything?
Dude, really? Did you actually read what I wrote and what I responded to before you launched into snide mode this time? Care to try again and make it look like you actually put some thought into it?
You know, it gets rather tiresome to see continual comments that people that disagree with you aren't thinking.
You say WotC can't solve the problem. I say they can. But oh, yeah, I've "not thought it through all the way" on this idea that just happens to disagree with yours. And when you tell me it's my problem and I disagree, I am once more not thinking.
If you don't want snide remarks, try a little consideration on your own part. Quit talking down to people and see how they reply.
Tell me how WotC can make you and Diffan agree on which setting to play in. You know, the problem Markus put forth and the one I responded to a fairly civil manner.
It gets tiresome to deal with people who clearly don't read. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 04:44:01
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And it gets tiresome when a number of scribes start forgetting the site Code of Conduct.
Let's get back to respecting the opinions of others, eh? 
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 23 Jan 2012 04:45:05 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 04:45:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Perhaps people who are against a reboot shouldn't post in the reboot thread. Why are you so threatened by our desire to talk about a reboot?
We are not belittling the Realms, we are not kicking them while they're down.
We are, like you, exploring our thoughts on why we want things a certain way. Let us do that without constantly interrupting us. PLEASE.
I believe the opening question was "for or against?" I may be out of line, but that tells me that "against" should be free to say so.
Share your opinion, but stop telling people who do not share it that they are wrong.
18D / Brimstone needs to take a chill and stop berating people.
I mean FFS, your constant harping that "it's a mistake, it shouldn't happen" is just repetitive. We get it, we get your point.
WE DO NOT SHARE IT
I welcome you to point out where I have said anyone is wrong. I may believe that their idea won't work and I have said as much. However, I am stating an opinion, not fact. The statement was made that the case wasn't being made. This is quite innacurrate and shows that apparently someone does have to keep saying it. I get your point too but I am not asking you to stop posting in a thread that clearly invites both views, am I? I'm open to being convinced. Anyone is free to believe that or not, but it is the truth. If no one will answer the tough questions after they are asked repeatedly that tells me they have no answers and haven't thought about those questions. This is a potentially monumental undertaking that could have devastating consequences no matter which way they go (yes, that includes my preferrence). All I'm asking is to see that someone is willing to think through the potential consequences of their choice and to quit making assumptions that at this point should be known to not be based in fact as the facts have not presented themselves. If I have ever said otherwise let me be clear now, I am making assumptions and putting forth hypotheticals. Call me arrogant, but I believe them to be informed based on my experience in a customer centric business and in dealing with other IPs as they make these same choices. If I have come across as an ass to anyone who didn't choose to go down that path first then I apologize. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 04:54:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And it gets tiresome when a number of scribes start forgetting the site Code of Conduct.
Let's get back to respecting the opinions of others, eh?
Apologies for the use of capital letters and my tone.
However, I am extremely tired of people telling me that not only is my preferred outcome for the Realms "wrong" but it's somehow "hurting the Realms" or the company, or sales, or whatever they've decided for that particular mini-novel they've written.
I have no desire to see the Realms (or WotC) fail with a 5E Realms. That's precisely why I'm stating exactly what I want and what would make me either buy or pass on a new manual / edition.
Asking for a reboot vs. asking for a "softening with lots of repairs" isn't all that terribly different in terms of the work WotC would have to do. If you're making repairs to everything people didn't like about 4E, who is to say that all of those repairs and the new lore will be so awesome that it will turn dislike into love? With a reboot, there's going to be a lot of work required. But it's the same amount, if not more, for the "repair and explain" crew.
It doesn't matter which direction they take, it will be a lot of work either way for the WotC staff.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 05:04:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I welcome you to point out where I have said anyone is wrong. I may believe that their idea won't work and I have said as much. However, I am stating an opinion, not fact. The statement was made that the case wasn't being made. This is quite innacurrate and shows that apparently someone does have to keep saying it. I get your point too but I am not asking you to stop posting in a thread that clearly invites both views, am I? I'm open to being convinced. Anyone is free to believe that or not, but it is the truth. If no one will answer the tough questions after they are asked repeatedly that tells me they have no answers and haven't thought about those questions. This is a potentially monumental undertaking that could have devastating consequences no matter which way they go (yes, that includes my preferrence). All I'm asking is to see that someone is willing to think through the potential consequences of their choice and to quit making assumptions that at this point should be known to not be based in fact as the facts have not presented themselves. If I have ever said otherwise let me be clear now, I am making assumptions and putting forth hypotheticals. Call me arrogant, but I believe them to be informed based on my experience in a customer centric business and in dealing with other IPs as they make these same choices. If I have come across as an ass to anyone who didn't choose to go down that path first then I apologize.
Perhaps that's the problem. I don't feel the need to explain my reasoning in deep detail. That doesn't mean I haven't thought about it a great deal, it doesn't mean I haven't considered the "hard questions". I resent the constant implication that I've somehow arrived at my choice through poor thinking and perhaps random chance. That somehow, I'm just out to hurt the Realms, or worse, that I want something better but I'm hurting the Realms without intending to do so.
If I don't go into deep detail, it might simply mean that I'm tired of answering once and then having my thoughts picked apart by someone who vehemently disagrees with me. It's all just way too much drama, considering that we haven't even heard back about the D&D Experience playtests of the rules set, much less their actual plans for the Realms. But oh... somehow I'm the mean one and I'm kicking the Realms while it's face down in an alley. Seriously, could an accusation be more drama-filled and insulting?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 05:16:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
OMH can you please quit belittling the Realms.
It has no place in these halls.
Sure I understand that you don't like the 4E Realms, understandable, we all get it.
Quit kicking her while she is down.
For the record I am a fan of the Realms, all versions of it even if I find parts alittle distasteful. Doesn't mean that I will badmouth it!
IT'S TIME THE MODS PUT A STOP TO THIS NONSENSE!
Sorry if you misinterpreted what I stated as belittling the Realms. Such is not the case. That is simply the facts. You may disagree, and that is certainly your privilege.
I realize that there is more than one individual who wishes to completely shut down any and all critique of 4th Edition, and I realize that much of that is borne from the worry that Wizbro might possibly stop supporting it. But I rather think trying to suppress debate is not the answer to any issues you may have. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 05:29:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
OMH can you please quit belittling the Realms.
It has no place in these halls.
Sure I understand that you don't like the 4E Realms, understandable, we all get it.
Quit kicking her while she is down.
For the record I am a fan of the Realms, all versions of it even if I find parts alittle distasteful. Doesn't mean that I will badmouth it!
IT'S TIME THE MODS PUT A STOP TO THIS NONSENSE!
Sorry if you misinterpreted what I stated as belittling the Realms. Such is not the case. That is simply the facts. You may disagree, and that is certainly your privilege.
I realize that there is more than one individual who wishes to completely shut down any and all critique of 4th Edition, and I realize that much of that is borne from the worry that Wizbro might possibly stop supporting it. But I rather think trying to suppress debate is not the answer to any issues you may have.
NO you are belittling the REALMS WITH SELLPLAGUE, AND SHATTERED REALMS.
It needs to stop!
You can critque the 4E Realms all you want. JUST USE DECENCY AND RESPECT. I don't see people useing names for the post ToT REALMS. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 05:37:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
NO you are belittling the REALMS WITH SELLPLAGUE, AND SHATTERED REALMS.
It needs to stop!
You can critque the 4E Realms all you want. JUST USE DECENCY AND RESPECT. I don't see people useing names for the post ToT REALMS.
Again, this is your interpretation. It is also one I do not share. I believe my interpretation is accurate, and yours is not. I do not expect everyone to have warm fuzzies and butterflies over such labels, but the setting hardly inspires warm fuzzies and butterflies to begin with.
I will not try to disabuse you of your perceptions, mistaken though I perceive them to be. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 05:47:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I welcome you to point out where I have said anyone is wrong. I may believe that their idea won't work and I have said as much. However, I am stating an opinion, not fact. The statement was made that the case wasn't being made. This is quite innacurrate and shows that apparently someone does have to keep saying it. I get your point too but I am not asking you to stop posting in a thread that clearly invites both views, am I? I'm open to being convinced. Anyone is free to believe that or not, but it is the truth. If no one will answer the tough questions after they are asked repeatedly that tells me they have no answers and haven't thought about those questions. This is a potentially monumental undertaking that could have devastating consequences no matter which way they go (yes, that includes my preferrence). All I'm asking is to see that someone is willing to think through the potential consequences of their choice and to quit making assumptions that at this point should be known to not be based in fact as the facts have not presented themselves. If I have ever said otherwise let me be clear now, I am making assumptions and putting forth hypotheticals. Call me arrogant, but I believe them to be informed based on my experience in a customer centric business and in dealing with other IPs as they make these same choices. If I have come across as an ass to anyone who didn't choose to go down that path first then I apologize.
Perhaps that's the problem. I don't feel the need to explain my reasoning in deep detail. That doesn't mean I haven't thought about it a great deal, it doesn't mean I haven't considered the "hard questions". I resent the constant implication that I've somehow arrived at my choice through poor thinking and perhaps random chance. That somehow, I'm just out to hurt the Realms, or worse, that I want something better but I'm hurting the Realms without intending to do so.
If I don't go into deep detail, it might simply mean that I'm tired of answering once and then having my thoughts picked apart by someone who vehemently disagrees with me. It's all just way too much drama, considering that we haven't even heard back about the D&D Experience playtests of the rules set, much less their actual plans for the Realms. But oh... somehow I'm the mean one and I'm kicking the Realms while it's face down in an alley. Seriously, could an accusation be more drama-filled and insulting?
I had something here, but you know what, it's not even worth it. Believe what you want to believe.
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
OMH can you please quit belittling the Realms.
It has no place in these halls.
Sure I understand that you don't like the 4E Realms, understandable, we all get it.
Quit kicking her while she is down.
For the record I am a fan of the Realms, all versions of it even if I find parts alittle distasteful. Doesn't mean that I will badmouth it!
IT'S TIME THE MODS PUT A STOP TO THIS NONSENSE!
I realize that there is more than one individual who wishes to completely shut down any and all critique of 4th Edition,
Who?
quote:
and I realize that much of that is borne from the worry that Wizbro might possibly stop supporting it. But I rather think trying to suppress debate is not the answer to any issues you may have.
Did they say that was their reason? I only see one person coming across as trying to supress debate. No, it's not you. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
Edited by - Tyrant on 23 Jan 2012 05:58:47 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 06:17:07
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So now I'm all about suppressing debate?
Yeesh.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 23 Jan 2012 06:18:06 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 06:35:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
So now I'm all about suppressing debate?
Yeesh.
Interesting that you make that assumption and take every criticism I have as a personal attack.
Brimstone, good luck.
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 06:45:03
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Thanks Tyrant!
Heaven help us if Candlekeep is welcoming to players, or fans of all versions of the Realms.
Oh, thats right the 4E Realms don't count in some scribes opinions.
People wonder why Candlekeep has such a bad rep... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 06:59:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Thanks Tyrant!
Heaven help us if Candlekeep is welcoming to players, or fans of all versions of the Realms.
Oh, thats right the 4E Realms don't count in some scribes opinions.
People wonder why Candlekeep has such a bad rep...
Again, these are your perceptions, and ones that in my opinion are grossly inaccurate. But you certainly have the right to express them, even if you don't believe others should. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 07:02:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Thanks Tyrant!
Heaven help us if Candlekeep is welcoming to players, or fans of all versions of the Realms.
Oh, thats right the 4E Realms don't count in some scribes opinions.
People wonder why Candlekeep has such a bad rep...
Again, these are your perceptions, and ones that in my opinion are grossly inaccurate. But you certainly have the right to express them, even if you don't believe others should.
In what way do you believe he is mistaken? |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 07:09:46
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| Brimstone, I have never said that the 4E Realms don't count; I would just like to see support for a possible future in which the PCs succeed in preventing the Spellplague through the events of the 3E-closing megamodule trilogy. This is why (despite the numerous well-grounded arguments against it) I believe that a timeline split is needed. I confess, in the early days of 4E, I was very hostile to the whole thing, but I did eventually come to realize that it's what we were given, so I should deal with it. And I did... by moving to Pathfinder and Golarion. With the announcement of D&D Next, I was brought back to the Realms by promises of support for ALL eras and editions. And I, too, Brimstone, support all versions of the Realms... including a version in which the PCs succeed in preventing the Spellplague at the end of the 3.5 Anauroch adventure. It seems to me that the scroll-clogging and debate-stalling has had guilty parties on both sides of the debate, so why don't we all agree now that it should stop, and let everybody express their opinion, regardless of what that opinion is? Anyway, I'm tired and I need to sleep before I say something stupid here; good night. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 07:16:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Thanks Tyrant!
Heaven help us if Candlekeep is welcoming to players, or fans of all versions of the Realms.
Oh, thats right the 4E Realms don't count in some scribes opinions.
People wonder why Candlekeep has such a bad rep...
Again, these are your perceptions, and ones that in my opinion are grossly inaccurate. But you certainly have the right to express them, even if you don't believe others should.
In what way do you believe he is mistaken?
That is a fair question.
*His statement that, by using 'Sellplague' and 'Shattered Realms', we are somehow 'belittling' the Forgotten Realms/works of Ed Greenwood. I contend this is not the case. If I intend to belittle something, I make no bones about the fact that I am doing exactly that. And I try to make others understand why I am belittling it. Otherwise, the charge is sensationalistic and tinged with hysterics.
*Because what I perceive as fair critique is something that he perceives as 'hysterics', he believes that I and others like me had best shut up, go sit in a corner, and mind our places. I will concede it is entirely possible he is not intending to say that, but that is exactly the message being conveyed. And I have absolutely no intention of paying credence to what I perceive, as I said before, being hysteria-tinged sensationalism.
I cannot recall, even once, where I (or anyone else, for that matter) stated that 4th Edition proponents should not be allowed to state their views. The statement:
"Heaven help us if Candlekeep is welcoming to players, or fans of all versions of the Realms."
I cannot recall a time where anything like edition-based apartheid has ever been advocated, nor would it be tolerated by any moderator or scribe worth the title. Again, I am detecting more than a tinge of hysterics and sensationalism. Perhaps as a means of being the loudest in the room (so to speak), or to bully someone into shutting up and minding their place - or not, I don't know, but that is the perception I am getting regardless.
I could continue, but you get the gist, I'm sure.
Edit: I was still typing when Sage posted, thus I will speak no more on this topic here.
- OMH |
Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 23 Jan 2012 07:20:02 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 07:17:26
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| Wow... a whole lot went on while I was writing that... and it's not something I'm going to get involved in right now. Could everyone just please read my preceding post with a clear head and an open mind, and tell me that I'm not right (and I'm not including the timeline split in that; that's something the folks at WotC are going to have to decide on)... if you can do that without bashing earlier editions and with a well-reasoned argument, I'll get out of the debate completely. Thanks. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 07:18:03
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Jakk I have no problem with PC's possibly stopping Shar and Cyric.
What I have a problem with is scribes belittling the 4E Realms. Like it or not it's cannon.
If WotC was to reboot, I would be fine with that.
That is not my point.
My problem is the name calling that is going on towards the 4E Realms...
I don't see crappy names for the ToT Realms.
Maybe Lady Swiftstrike was right...
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Reboot of the Realms for 5th edition.
