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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 19:54:20
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In that, we are in agreement.
We can't erase incidents in our own pasts, as much as we'd like to, so it does make sense to use everything and move forward (not time-wise - I am talking philosophically ATM). I think moving the (4e) timeline forward at this point would just be the final nail in the coffin.
Start fresh, but use the canon and fix it as they go along (not change it - in most cases it only needs some tweaking to get back on-track). That means re-writing the bulk of old material, but re-writing should be a lot easier then starting from scratch.
I do like the idea of leaving 4e as the 'world that could happen', which wouldn't necessarily discard it... just put it on a shelf where it won't hurt anybody. 
That would give the designers (in the future) the choice of either 'correcting' the future of the Realms, or moving forward with it as presented; the beauty of that will be that they won't have to make that decision at the out-set. They will be able to feel-out the fanbase for quite awhile first, and know what sort of climate any changes will weather.
Consider it a military operation - move along slowly, and keep your heads down. If someone takes a shot at you, you stop, and re-access. Theres no need to leap blindly forward (especially a century!!!) By taking baby-steps, the designers will be able to better judge the reception new or differing lore receives, incrementally.
So by 'total reboot', I mean an erasure of everything that comes after the OGB (or whatever year they set 5e at), and THAT is what I would be against. A 'soft' reboot is more in-order, which just means a re-release of older lore, within the new rules-structure, with only minor continuity changes (just details). It would not invalidate anything, except where minor corrections are made.
If they could accomplish that, then I wouldn't mind buying all those products again, in a newer, shinier format (who needs yellow pages, anyway?). But then again, I am in a rather unique situation ATM. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jan 2012 02:07:50 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 23:24:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I don't want to see anyone's work invalidated just because people don't like certain aspects of the Realms that have been there for over 10 years. IMO, a reboot isn't necessary in the least but I do wish they still produced novels set in the pre-spellplague times and finish out many of our beloved heroes and villians stories.
Who's work are you talking about specifically? What about all the work that was done that was destroyed by the Spellplague? What about all the work that was done into making 4th edition? To make an omelet, you have to break some eggs.
Stories in the Realms have always taken twists and turns.
What happens in a novel should not cause the Realms to be held back from being made into something better. There is such a thing as screwing up and needing to go back and fix the damage. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 01:40:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Who's work are you talking about specifically? What about all the work that was done that was destroyed by the Spellplague? What about all the work that was done into making 4th edition? To make an omelet, you have to break some eggs.
Seriously....?
Ed Greenwood: novels and Eye on the Realms articles for the last 3 1/2 years
Erik Scott de Bie: novels and gaming supplements (most notably, the Neverwinter Campaign Guide)
Matt and Brian James: Various of Realms articles and Grand History of the Realms
Brian Cortijo: FR articles
Richard Lee Byers: Novels
Tim Pratt: Novel
R.A. Salvatore: Novels and lots of great lore on Luskan, the North, and info about Kingdom of Many Arrows.
Rosemary Jones: Novels
Paul S. Kemp: Novels
Rich Baker: Novels and a host of other stuff....
and that's what I gathered in 5 minuts of looking. I think most of these people would be just a bit miffed if they're hard work and interesting novels were just "shelved" or rendered "alternative timelined" just because people don't like the Spellplague
What happens in a novel should not cause the Realms to be held back from being made into something better. There is such a thing as screwing up and needing to go back and fix the damage.
[/quote] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 02:14:55
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A professional person working in any industry should understand that occasionally things they have worked on are 'cancelled', and companies go in another direction.
Grownups do not stamp their feet, hold their breath, and say "NO!" until their boss sees it their way. They accept the way things are and move on. Do you think the guys at Nasa (after Obama practically cancelled the entire Space Program) went on websites and bemoaned all their lost work - some of which they had been in the process of engineering for over thirty years?
Its just a silly game - they can get over it, or find something less stressful to do. Trashing an unsuccessful (from a corporate standpoint) line of products is just business-as-usual. They seem to have no problem doing precisely this when they thought 1e/2e/3e was holding them back. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 02:18:57
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I really doubt WotC would simply throw away all the collective Realmslore they've produced since 1356DR, or since any other arbitrary date set long before their "current" Realms timeline. It would be an admission of failure, an acknowledgement that they've "wasted" all those intervening years (in the Realms and in RL), and it would be an insult to every author and designer who contributed to the Realms from the cutoff point onwards.
Even the most ancient grognards stuck in AD&D 1E who loathe and despise 4E most vehemently must recognize that when their particular grievances are put aside there's still literally thousands of pages of fantastic, original, and quality Realmslore which are "worth keeping around". How can someone demand, for example, that the Spellplague be abolished while accepting the Shadovar, or ask for the Time of Troubles to be deleted while insisting on rewriting the Zulkirs-in-exile?
I don't personally feel this is justified, regardless of any feelings I might have about "newer" lore. I also think it's patently hypocritical. It's basically equivalent to approaching every FR author and saying something like "hey Ed, we're setting you right back to the beginning ... y'know, where you wrote your last good Realmslore ... all those books you've written since 1987 were garbage and will be discontinued". |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Jan 2012 02:23:37 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 02:37:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
A professional person working in any industry should understand that occasionally things they have worked on are 'cancelled', and companies go in another direction.
Grownups do not stamp their feet, hold their breath, and say "NO!" until their boss sees it their way. They accept the way things are and move on. Do you think the guys at Nasa (after Obama practically cancelled the entire Space Program) went on websites and bemoaned all their lost work - some of which they had been in the process of engineering for over thirty years?
Funny you should mention that, because I see a lot of it in many posts about ant-spellplague and 4E realms products. I guess it can swing both ways there. But really, I don't care anymore. I'd like to see them go forward and will do my part to see that happen, but if they don't and do some sort of moronic retro, undo-everything ploy then I'm out. I don't need to go back 150+ years juset for the sake of a few people who complain alot. The Realms are what I make it, have been for years and that probably won't stop me aside from buying more re-hashed materials I can probably get online (download if need-be).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its just a silly game - they can get over it, or find something less stressful to do. Trashing an unsuccessful (from a corporate standpoint) line of products is just business-as-usual. They seem to have no problem doing precisely this when they thought 1e/2e/3e was holding them back.
Yea, they'll do whatever they feel is best and really....whatever. Trash the Time of Trouble, Reboot to 1325 DR, make Elminsters a cleric/rogue/fighter/wizard/archmage/avenger/cowboy/renegade/god 89 for all I have a F*** about. It just doesn't seem like it's worth it to me anymore to complain and attempt to build bridges without having large amount of collateral. So F*** it. |
Edited by - Diffan on 15 Jan 2012 02:38:03 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 02:57:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I don't want to see anyone's work invalidated just because people don't like certain aspects of the Realms that have been there for over 10 years.
Like Ao?
The designers of 4E already invalidated the owrk of others.
The 3E Realms invalidated the work of others. Manshoon Wars. Or at least did nothing with it. Thats what happens when Editions change... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 15 Jan 2012 03:08:32 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 03:03:07
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quote:
Diffan
... I see a lot of [rants and tantrums] in many posts about ant-spellplague and 4E realms products. I guess it can swing both ways there. But really, I don't care anymore. I'd like to see them go forward and will do my part to see that happen, but if they don't and do some sort of moronic retro, undo-everything ploy then I'm out. I don't need to go back 150+ years juset for the sake of a few people who complain alot ... they'll do whatever they feel is best and really....whatever. Trash the Time of Trouble, Reboot to 1325 DR, make Elminsters a cleric/rogue/fighter/wizard/archmage/avenger/cowboy/renegade/god 89 ...
Of course Wizbro will do whatever they feel is best (in terms of sustaining brand revenues), but I have not yet seen any statements by Wizbro which confirm or commit to anything at all beyond the fact that they're developing "5E" and are actively probing their fans and potential fans (at Candlekeep and elsewhere) for feedback.
You'll note that none of the recent Candlekeep threads discussing 5E were initiated by Wizbro people, and the fact is that they have been largely silent observers carefully confirming/denying nothing significant while these scrolls circle through endless 4E/Spellplague bashing arguments*.
Many (I daresay most) of the scribes arguing in these scrolls are racing to express their thoughts and opinions without even bothering to read much of what has been said before; simply arguing against whatever was said most recently seems sufficient. Endless repetition, confrontation, and escalating hostility are inevitable. You shouldn't take offense at this stuff, Diffan, because the anti-4E hostility will blindly (and in many instances, ignorantly) lash out regardless whether you present yourself as a convenient target.
Nonetheless, I believe that the Wizbro people are paying careful attention (or at least they will be, after the furor loses momentum), and they will analyze the contents of these scrolls in some detail to extract the sort of feedback they need. The contents of insightful passages will be noted and summarized while all the "+1 incoherent rage" passages will simply be tallied up as little more than a statistical reference. I think your pro-4E viewpoint is a welcome rarity which will receive proper consideration in influencing the opinions that really matter. The way I see it, you're the one "winning" the arguments.
[Edit]
* Except for ESdB, who is technically a freelancer and not a real Wizbro employee anyhow. He has withdrawn from a few of these scrolls after issuing his own rants to condemn the discussions themselves for being unproductive and futile. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Jan 2012 03:15:49 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 03:13:50
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| They could let the setting sit for about 10 years, and then reboot. Nah, Elminster and Drizzt wont let them... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 04:26:22
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Quite a bit of meaningful conversation here. Please take a peek (and drop an opinion or two) at my discussion about how to best collect, sift, condense, and communicate the key points to the powers that be.
It's over at 'A call to productive action on the 5E Realms'.
Thanks |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 05:48:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
You'll note that none of the recent Candlekeep threads discussing 5E were initiated by Wizbro people, and the fact is that they have been largely silent observers carefully confirming/denying nothing significant while these scrolls circle through endless 4E/Spellplague bashing arguments*.
For the record, I don't know that we've ever had any scribes who were known to be active WotC employees, here, with the exception of Rich Baker. To me, this fact makes the lack of discussions initiated by WotC staffers entirely irrelevant.
Besides, with the anonymity of the internet, any of us could be WotC staffers, either here on their own time and initiative, or observing the commentary on the company dime. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 06:10:16
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@Diffan - if you've been following my posts the past few days, you'll note that what I suggested there is not at all what I want. I was just pointing out that if thats what they feel is the best path to take, then they will do so and no amount of "but our work was great!" from the 4e designers will change that.
I never said I wanted them to forget about 4e - for better or worse, I must consider it canon, because right now, it is.
I will go with the consensus, no matter what it is, but I really don't think pushing 5e even further out from the original setting is going to 'build bridges'. You only need to build bridges when you move forward... when you stay put, no-one needs a bridge.
If they re-release everything, as I suggested in the other thread, backwards-engineering every single product so that fluff flows smoothly with no glitches (a 'soft reboot'), then the 4e Realms should be included in that. If they also separate the lore from the fluff completely, in separate books, then everyone is a winner. Use the rules you want during the time period you want - Your Realms will be no less canon then mine.
Or is that asking too much? Is part of the edition war simply not wanting to see the other side happy? Because if it is, then thats a very sad state of affairs. I'd love to see a Realms where everyone gets along and is enjoying what THEY like. I've never begrudged the 4e players their Realms, so why should they find a reprinting of the OGB so offensive? Hell, TSR/WotC has been dusting-off and re-selling past edition adventure modules for years, and even a few sourcebooks, so what would be the difference? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jan 2012 06:13:01 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 06:21:08
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The active Candlekeep scribes whom I consider affiliated with WotC are Matt and Brian James, Steven Schend, James Lowder, and of course Ed (via proxy). Erik, Elaine, PSK, RLB, and many others are more loosely affiliated. I consider them all privy to "inside" proprietary NDA secrets, though of course my list is far from complete or accurate and WotC employees have recently been coming and going a bit faster than I can follow.
My above statements were referring largely to these individuals. Misunderstandings or assumptions entirely being my own. I agree that WotC would not likely wish to advertise their activities - especially given the general hostility they often receive in forums such as these - and if their employees are monitoring Candlekeep at all it would likely be through anonymous guest accounts and a search engine. At least that's what I would do in their position.
My point is that I have not read any conclusive statements made within Candlekeep about 5E from any of these individuals ... aside from several of them expressing a willingness to maintain informal and unofficial dialog with Candlekeep's scribes with the goal of finding out what we want them to give us. In fact, most of them have stated that they are unable to tell us anything conclusive at this time, I happen to believe them, and I can respect the restrictions imposed upon them by their profession. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Jan 2012 06:25:56 |
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Gambit
Learned Scribe
110 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 07:36:37
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| Wooley, love the timeline suggestion, right after C&D is pretty much the perfect point in the timeline, IMO. Failing that I would like to see a Star Trek style reboot. Failing that...I just want the plethora of awesome personalities from the second half of the 1300's to not be dead...and thats the thing, even if they "smooth" things over and downplay the spellplague, if the official timeline remains set in 1480, in official canon these characters are dead. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 08:27:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Gambit
Wooley, love the timeline suggestion, right after C&D is pretty much the perfect point in the timeline, IMO. Failing that I would like to see a Star Trek style reboot. Failing that...I just want the plethora of awesome personalities from the second half of the 1300's to not be dead...and thats the thing, even if they "smooth" things over and downplay the spellplague, if the official timeline remains set in 1480, in official canon these characters are dead.
I suggested a Star Trek-style reboot before, and this does allow both the original timeline and the new timeline to move forward. Where is the original timeline, you ask? Star Trek Online inherited it, and they did a right nice job with it, even going so far as to have Leonard Nimoy voice the entire opening player sequence. It goes Free-To-Play January 20th, so anyone can confirm this at their leisure after that.
And I very much agree that one of the worst things that they did, even more so than trashing Faerun, was the mass extermination of a large majority of the iconic Realms figures, as well as the completely pointless rounds of deicide. I have scrawled notes on how to reverse these when the ideas have struck me - not that Wizbro would ever ask me my opinion.
Thus far (as my players will discover), I have logically worked out only how to bring back Qilue Veladorn, and by extension, her deity (Eilistraee). Of course, Lisa Smedman left several loopholes at the end of The Lady Penitent books, so I've only had to basically 'connect-the-dots' to get to that point. Even the absurd 'Points Of Light', which forced me to use something I'd never, ever needed before (namely a powerful 'patron NPC' to prod the characters along) was (thankfully) not much of an obstacle.
I don't see a reboot in the happening, much as I'd like to see one. But it is possible to bring back the icons, without stretching any suspension of disbelief. I've figured out how to bring one back, and I'm just a grouchy old Gygaxian grognard who has only reluctantly come to accept 4th Edition Realms as having any merit. I would be absolutely stunned (and not in a good way) if WotC and its freelancers couldn't come up with a way to bring back these 'essential personnel' (if I may be so bold as to use that descriptor). These are, to a person, absurdly intelligent people who have created entire alternate realities in their minds. Bringing back the fictional giants of the Realms should be child's play for them.
Of course (as I have said), I don't miss Khelben. That's the one exception.
- OMH |
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Gambit
Learned Scribe
110 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 08:45:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Of course (as I have said), I don't miss Khelben. That's the one exception.
You hold that wagging tongue of blashphemy, sir!  |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 14:49:12
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| It would just be too dangerous of a precedent. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 16:08:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
It would just be too dangerous of a precedent.
Which? Reboot, or bringing back the iconic Realms personalities?
In either case, I must disagree.
In the case of the iconic Realms personalities, it's just a flat-out slam-dunk win to bring them back. They were part of what made the Realms...well...the Realms. Not all of it, no, but they weren't allowed to age, develop, mature, and contribute to their world as long as they might have. They were simply snuffed out and tossed into the rubbish bin. Both through novels like The Lady Penitent, and through callous, flip-the-fans-the-bird mechanics.
A reboot, without continuing to support the Shattered Realms, you have a point. That would be Wizbro doing to the 4th Edition aficionados what it did to everyone else. But I do not see where doing a Star Trek-style reboot, where both timelines receive attention, would be a bad thing, particularly if, for example, they plan to 'support the Realms regardless of era'.
Granted, 1325 DR, 1356 DR, and 1375 DR might all have a backlog of 1st through 3rd Edition material behind them, but a dual timeline allows Wizbro to support the entirety of their fan base. It's like a doughnut shop offering a variety of doughnuts - I personally love maple bars, but I despise cream-filled doughnuts. Two of my players, as I have discovered, hate maple bars (freaks), but have no problem with doughnuts filled with that...stuff.
It might be much the same with Shattered Realms and (for lack of a better term) Rebooted Realms. Ye Olde Realms Shoppe offers the Realms in a variety of flavors, ranging from dates in history ranging from the OGB era, to 1380 (allowing use of backlogged/backdated material), and then giving varying perspectives in what comes afterward. One is the Shattered Realms as we see them today (or what have you), while the other is the Rebooted Realms as the Gambits and the Therises and the OMHs (amongst many, many others) would like to have them...safe, whole, and the Realms as we remember them.
We are not (well, I am not) asking Wizbro to deep-six the Shattered Realms (which it is doubtful they would do, anyways). The request we have is to give us the 'future Realms' that were not tossed into the blender to shoehorn it into their ridiculous 'Points Of Light' foolishness. That mindset worked well enough for Eberron, which was tailor-made for it, and there it should have stayed, making discussions like this unnecessary.
If they are, as they say, going forward with the fans in mind, then they can probably glean the things that fans like. They can offer them choices, without denying anyone else their preferred milieu. I genuinely fail to see how anything here could be a 'dangerous precedent', particularly if it (A) gives the entirety of the Realms adherents what they want, and (B) gives Wizbro an idea of exactly works and sells best, enabling them to support the lines in the best possible fashion. Everyone wins, without advocating denying others being able to participate in a world they have either grown up with over the decades (as I have), or come to know in recent times.
I just don't see how this is a losing proposition. I honestly and truly don't. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 17:59:46
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Honestly, I'd be equally happy with a reboot in a Star Trek '09 style -or- a total retcon/reboot that permanently eliminates the 4E Realms.
A reboot might be the best thing for everyone. It'd remind people that the "real Realms" is the one we make at home, that there are thousands and thousands of variant realities of the Realms. Each one is equally valid, because it's ours, and they're ALL at least slightly different from canon.
The people who clamored for a post-apocalyptic Realms wanted it to be bare bones anyway, not "weighed down" by lore, so it's not like they'd be hurt in any way if it was erased from existence in the canon timeline. And I really don't believe there's any kind of moral imperative here, where you're supposed to take some kind of "higher road". It's a game, not real life, and I'm not about to defend the tender sensibilities of people who hated 1E-3E and advocated to destroy that Realms.
Trends change. People and politics at WotC change, and they will change again.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 18:27:49
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I wouldn't think a reboot is required. What might make more sense - and was suggested elsewhere on this board - is edition neutral products and allowing the authors of products to chose where in the timeline they want to set their stories/adventures/modules with respect to the existing lore.
There are plenty of holes in the published lore 1E through 4E that could keep writers busy till well past their retirment age and have enough spare for the next generation of writers.
If these products are spread throughout the timeline in a somewhat coordinated matter and include brining the timeline forward in a realms consisted matter, it would keep the world alive for old-school players whose games migh still run in the past (pre-ToT, pre-Spellplague, etc) as well as those new to the world that do not have the wealth of lore at their disposal that some of the older gamers have.
And in addition the world needs an advancing timeline to keep it healthy and interesting for newer generation gamers. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 19:25:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
People need to be careful in what they wish for. WotC could reboot the Realms and add all of the 5E stuff(Races, classes, feats, spells, ectera) to it. So you could get A NEW OGB AND A BUNCH OF OTHER STUFF WITH IT. Think long and hard about that. People say look at Dark Sun, yeah WotC added a bunch of 4E stuff to it with it's reboot for 4E.
IMO the reboot talk is an underhanded swipe/jab at 4E.
My two coppers...
Exactly Brimstone. It's Pandora's Box.
I completely expect this.
And it all depends on how much they bring in.
For instance, Genasi were always around. Give them a small canon presence in Calimshan and perhaps down in Zakhara, and we're good (I would actually prefer they move Calimshan* over near the Golden Waters, but that might be asking too much - thats a 'Hard' reboot).
Dragonborn were always around. Sure there were a LOT in Abeir that came over, but FR had them too (and they should merge them with the Khaasta as well - too many similar things is something they really need to fix). Give the 1e/2e ones a presence in Murghom - we knew almost nothing about the place anyway. Also small pockets of them in 2-3 other regions like Sossal, K-T, Maztica, etc).
Tieflings were always around - just sprinkle a few groups of the racial ones in remote places like northern Narfell and the like, and we are good. Or, conversely, say the Spellplague activated the recessive (Fiendish) gene within many existing Tieflings and exaggerated their fiendish traits.
For things like Halfings and other minor changes, just say 'it was always that way' (kinda worked for 3e), OR they could use the Plague again, as I did in some HB lore I wrote over on the WotC site some time ago: "After the devastation that brought Halruaa down, that once proud land was awash with plague-changed waters, glowing with the chaotic blue energies from the shattered magics of the sorcerer Kings. This water, carried by an immense tidal surge deep into low-lying Luiren, turned that once-beautiful country in a mass of bogs and dweomer-filled swamps. The surviving Halflings - stalwart as ever - moved to higher ground and rebuilt, but the strange energies trapped within the waters that inundated their land caused unusual side-effects, including accelerated growth amongst newborns, which increased for the next several generations."
Take your pick - I don't care if they give us a reason or not, but as long as they provide a plausible one, that should please the folks that insist on such things (between editions). The idea is, with a 'soft' reboot, you can sweep a lot under the table. I certainly hope the non-4e crowd doesn't insist on a 'pristine' OGB Realms for 5e, because that wouldn't work. Much of the new lore is retroactive (like the existence of Primordials) - you can't just get rid of it, you need to smooth it out and blend it in.
If we have a chance of getting lots and lots of new FR lore - set in 'past' eras - isn't it worth it to absorb a little bit of the new stuff? I don't care if the Abolethic Sovereignty exists or not (and canonically, must in 1e/2e/3e) - I can choose to ignore them, as I do now. If they don't make their appearance until after the spellplague, it doesn't effect most of us anyway.
We cannot sit here and argue over what each of us wants individually - I am sure most of you would hate my own version of the Realms. We need to move forward and blend it all together, in a way that will make 80% of the people 80% happy. That other 20% will either come-around, or they can continue to be grognards. You'll never make the 'die-hards' happy anyway. As for the 80% happy - I had been considering this the other day, and I think that is the 'sweet spot'. I was probably 95% happy with the OGB, and 80% happy with 2e, and maybe 70% happy with the 3e material (some was great, some not so much). This gives us an average of 80% likability for acceptance. When you start to fall below the 70% mark, people will start to consider weather to make a certain purchase or not. You can almost look at it like how they grade school children here in the U.S. - 65% is just barely passing, and definitely 'needs work'. You get a 90-100% acceptance rating on a product, you just hit one out of the park. Paizo doesn't even get 100% on anything -there is always at least one thing that folks will read and say "I would have done that differently".
But that's okay, and expected. Just keep the acceptable side of the equation high, and don't worry about the little things folks don't like about it. You start listening to them, and we get another 4e (full erasure and reboot). I can live with aberrations... I can even live with Shade hovering over our heads, so long as I get that old-time, old-school FR lore that we all know and love. I can just ignore what I don't like.
Oh, and please, PLEASE don't force novels down our throats about things most fans didn't care for. It doesn't matter how good it is, if it doesn't 'feel' like the Realms. In fact, just avoid RSE's altogether. If you usher-in 5e with another RSE, then I think you've doomed it from the start. Ed greenwood created the Realms, and he knew not to 'shake them' (to much). They are fragile, and break easily (as we have seen). Would you throw an earthquake at the louvre? You would only do that if you didn't care what you broke.
*That was a very quick mock-up done some time ago, just to illustrate my idea - I actually think it should just replace Var altogether. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jan 2012 22:46:42 |
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Grimn the Grim.
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 20:39:00
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| I vote no, there's just so many things that could go wrong with a total reboot. |
The greatest darkness thrives in the shadow of the brightest light. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 21:42:31
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Know one has yet given a reason as to why a reboot would not work when the present incarnation of the Realms was shunned by so many.
It wasn't the rules that "Realms" lovers had a problem with, it was what happened to the Realms and it's very very obvious.
How exactly would you make people like the current Realms when most people do not? An edition change isn't going to suddenly make people start liking the Realms. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 21:55:30
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I personally did not like the idea of the Spellplague and the unfolding events after, and have not bothered to delve into the Realms beyond the mid 1370-ies. However, should WotC 'correct' certain items e.g. the Weave, Mystra/Mystril, it would be doable to bring back a Toril that feels more like Ed's idea of the Realms (though I would not want to discredit works by e.g. E Boyd and S Schend which took place after ToT and IMHO fit perfectly with the 'original' realms).
Even if physical damage has been done to the surface of the world, that does not hinder bringing back the feeling... actually, I would not be surprised to see that authors old and new would actually be able to draw on inspiration from the worst of the 4E FR period and to come up with good and very Realmsian retcons to make the world enjoyable again for old and new. The best would be if this could be done as 'rule light' as possible... |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 23:07:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
...Oh, and please, PLEASE don't force novels down our throats about things most fans didn't care for. It doesn't matter how good it is, if it doesn't 'feel' like the Realms...
I don't think you can have it both ways. Dragonborn that are really mammals (herp!), and excessive genasi and tieflings feel forced to me. I felt like pretty much everything about 4E was forced.
What do "most fans" really want? If "most fans" wanted to get rid of 4E Realms, would you still think it would be a problem to do so?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2012 : 01:02:44
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How is anything being forced down our throats?
If you don't like a book then don't buy it, don't read it, simply ignore it, or throw it away. Why force yourself to slavishly adhere to brand dogma when there are always alternatives? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2012 : 01:08:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
How is anything being forced down our throats?
If you don't like a book then don't buy it, don't read it, simply ignore it, or throw it away. Why force yourself to slavishly adhere to brand dogma when there are always alternatives?
I think it's more accurate for me to say it feels forced onto the setting, not forced on me. Of course I pick and choose what to buy, but when something feels forced I don't really want to buy it. In 1E-3E, some things felt like they stretched a little too far, but I was still happy to buy it.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2012 : 01:29:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Oh, and please, PLEASE don't force novels down our throats about things most fans didn't care for. It doesn't matter how good it is, if it doesn't 'feel' like the Realms. In fact, just avoid RSE's altogether. If you usher-in 5e with another RSE, then I think you've doomed it from the start. Ed greenwood created the Realms, and he knew not to 'shake them' (to much). They are fragile, and break easily (as we have seen). Would you throw an earthquake at the louvre? You would only do that if you didn't care what you broke.
I will disagree with this, to an extent... Some RSEs can be well done, and can nicely move the setting forward. Or RSEs can feel like the only point was novel sales. In my opinion, we've seen both, in the Realms.
However, if there are going to be rules-mandated changes to the setting when the 5E Realms comes out, then I want an explanation for them. And that involves an RSE, so be it -- so long as it makes sense, and moves the setting forward. I still find it irksome that so many things changed with 3E, without an explanation. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2012 : 02:22:44
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My heart says YES in all aspects.
My mind says: no, please make a transfer that sound reasonable.
In the end, I say: please use all material from Ed not yet published. And the more we get back to 3e lore the better, in terms of rules; i am a pagan. Do whatever you want, but please remake all the lore from being irrelevant. Lore rocks! Please force me to buy all your products to keep up with the realms! |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2012 : 03:04:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
How exactly would you make people like the current Realms when most people do not? An edition change isn't going to suddenly make people start liking the Realms.
Its not the change itself, it was the manner in which it was presented ("Surprise! We got a new edition, and oh yeah, BTW, we got rid of just about everything that made the Realms The Realms... but the geography is mostly the same... mostly... except for the major changes...") . It was kinda like being punched in the stomach (out of nowhere), then being apologized to, and when they helped us back up, they said "You know you were asking for that, right?" In other words, the apology rang very hollow (and we didn't really get one anyway).
The lore wasn't THAT bad.
The rules weren't THAT bad.
The timejump was VERY bad (it was a complete disconnect for many fans).
So a reboot would work, to an earlier period - one of the existing game-eras, or possibly immediately following the plague (while all the 'fun stuff' is still going on). GK also suggested booting to an even earlier time, but I have no idea how that would go over (seriously, I can't even offer an opinion on that, because I'm not sure how I feel about that). They've already resolved the first mistake - the surprise slap-in-the-face. We see it coming this time, and can prepare for it. Both mentally and emotionally.
The rules are also on the right track - we get input. The same can be said for the realms (this thread is testimony).
That why I think it can work. This is nothing like 'the last time'.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I don't think you can have it both ways. Dragonborn that are really mammals (herp!), and excessive genasi and tieflings feel forced to me. I felt like pretty much everything about 4E was forced.
Yes, Dragonborn should lay eggs, and they can correct that now (thats not a major thing, so it can be retconned in a soft reboot). Genasi & Tieflings have always been around - just give us a little bit more lore about where these larger groups have been 'hiding' (I've covered this exact point in several threads already).
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
What do "most fans" really want? If "most fans" wanted to get rid of 4E Realms, would you still think it would be a problem to do so?
What most fans want is a Forgotten Realms that makes us feel 'at home'. 4e didn't do that for most of us. We don't have to have one or the other - compromises can be made. Not everything 4e was all that terrible - I wish people would stop shutting their minds to everything because they hate 4e so much. Find the good and keep it, Find the bad and fix it. Find the total crap and throw it away. We have a golden opportunity here (and I am talking about all editions when I say that).
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
How is anything being forced down our throats?
If you don't like a book then don't buy it, don't read it, simply ignore it, or throw it away. Why force yourself to slavishly adhere to brand dogma when there are always alternatives?
Because I am a fan of the setting, and even if I don't read particular books (which I don't), and ignore those things I don't like IMG (which I do), I still know those things are part of the canon of a setting I love. I don't know about the rest of you, but there are some novels I read and I feel like I just read "A Realms Novel", and then there are others that I read where there is a complete disconnect - the Twilight Giants trilogy for instance (and I purposely avoided 3e/4e titles, to prove a point). I read it, I enjoyed, but I didn't feel like it had any connection to the Realms at all.
Its not about quality, or editions - its about understanding the underlying elements that make the realms the Realms, and breathing life into them. Some people (apparently) "don't get it". I have read poorly written Realms fanfic/HB that I enjoyed immensely, and very well-written novels that just didn't 'do it for me'. It isn't even a matter of 'writing style' - You either 'get it', or you don't - its a very tenuous thing, and almost impossible to describe.
Thats what I mean by 'forced', but what Therise says is also forced of a different nature. When you meet a single Saurial, thats okay. Then 2 books later you find out there is a secret vale of them, thats also okay. When you are handed a world you thought you knew and these 'reptile things' are crawling all over it, thats an example of forced lore. It just didn't feel 'natural'; it wasn't the Dragonborn that were bad - once again, it was the presentation. Too much, all at once.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I think it's more accurate for me to say it feels forced onto the setting, not forced on me. Of course I pick and choose what to buy, but when something feels forced I don't really want to buy it. In 1E-3E, some things felt like they stretched a little too far, but I was still happy to buy it.
Have you read Rich baker's series? It feels like The Realms to me - I barely notice the 4e setting at all. A couple of the Waterdeep novels are also like that (although 'grittier' then I'm used to).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I will disagree with this, to an extent... Some RSEs can be well done, and can nicely move the setting forward. Or RSEs can feel like the only point was novel sales. In my opinion, we've seen both, in the Realms.
I have never really liked any of them, but I tolerated some much better then others. At least give us repercussions - its down right silly that the day after an RSE, everything is back to normal (And the Fall of Zhentil keep wasn't even an RSE, and yet is one of the worst examples of this 'reset button' way of writing/designing). If you are going to change things in a big way, then continue that forward - don't just drop the whole thing after the last page is written.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[brHowever, if there are going to be rules-mandated changes to the setting when the 5E Realms comes out, then I want an explanation for them. And that involves an RSE, so be it -- so long as it makes sense, and moves the setting forward. I still find it irksome that so many things changed with 3E, without an explanation.
While I personally don't mind an edition change without an RSE (since when did they become mandatory?), I think the 'soft' reboot style for 5e may alleviate any need of that.
Unless they decide to do a time-traveling continuity reboot, in which case, THAT IS the RSE. However, I would be strongly against that, at this time. A year ago I probably would have been the poster-boy for the "get rid of it all" mentality when it came to 4e, but a lot of that was anger, and it has abated - I can now see much of 4e for what it is, without hating it for "replacing my beloved setting". A bitter pill, that, but one we should all swallow.
So if they do give us one more RSE for the reset, then okay, but make it really good, make sure we know the whole story (we still haven't gotten that for Mystra's death), make it make sense within the confines of previous canon, and most everyone will be okay with it.
Then don't destroy that re-earned trust by handing us another one ever-other-novel. The 'one-upmaship' (weather real or merely perceived) needs to stop. What next? A Gargantuan space-Hamster running around inside the great Wheel... yeah.. we'll call that the 'Habitrail cosmology'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Jan 2012 03:31:18 |
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Reboot of the Realms for 5th edition.
