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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 01:17:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The 3E and 4E eras are officially related to each other. The call for an alternate timeline is to have a 3E era that doesn't officially lead into the 4E era -- the best of both worlds.
This is a problem for me, though. The 4e Realms introduced a number of cool elements which would be difficult to retroactively incorporate into the pre-Spellplague Realms, since most of those elements were the result of the Spellplague.
I know it's easy enough, sometimes, to simply just borrow stuff from another edition and bring it wholesale [for the most part] into another edition of the setting. But the Spellplague represents a rather significant game-changing aspect.
That's a tough obstacle to surmount. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 01:25:58
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Plenty easy! I rape and pillage from other editions (and games, novels, movies, etc) with shameless abandon. I suppose that's more difficult to accomplish with canon rulesets though, not to mention all those copyright problems ...
[Edit]
The more this and the other threads circle around aimlessly, the more convinced I become that Wizbro's most cost-effective strategy would be to hire the services of Waterdeep's assassin guild. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Jan 2012 01:29:31 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 02:17:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Therise
I have to say, it's pretty interesting (at least to me)... as of today more than 40% of respondents just want a total reversion to an earlier edition, which would wipe out all of the 4E changes.
So ... basically just republish the 3.x product line?
I can understand how many people would want to retrograde to reap the benefits of d20 OGL. But I suspect many of them already own all the D&D 3X stuff they'd want to buy, most probably prefer PRPG or another system.
Is there any breakdown on the remaining 60%? What is your source, Therise?
[Edit]
My bad. Just remembered this scroll had a poll (your Poll, Therise) ... sorry, I tend to routinely ignore them. Repeating what I've recently said elsewhere: I think this poll would produce different results if surveyed outside Candlekeep; we already know quite well what the general D&D edition consensus for the majority of our fellow scribes would be.
I agree with your view that the results may very well be different outside Candlekeep (and in my view they likely are). It is also interesting to note that options 2, 3, and 4 ultimately support 4E to one degree or another and their combined votes are 2 shy of the "throw it out" vote. Something to ponder for anyone who puts any weight into such things.
Edit to add: Just to be clear, no matter how I may come off here when stating my view, I do not bare anyone any ill will for the views they hold. I may believe they are wrong, just as they believe I am wrong, but I don't think less of them or anything along those lines. I have seen WotC try to grease the sqeaky wheel before while they seemingly didn't put any thought into what they were doing or who was making all of the noise. I haven't personally ever seen it end well for the property they felt like tinkering with. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
Edited by - Tyrant on 12 Jan 2012 02:32:14 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 03:00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Therise
I have to say, it's pretty interesting (at least to me)... as of today more than 40% of respondents just want a total reversion to an earlier edition, which would wipe out all of the 4E changes.
So ... basically just republish the 3.x product line?
Oh, no - I wasn't really drawing a conclusion. To be honest, I'm not sure what the best answer will be. It seems that there will be some losses no matter how it's handled.
quote:
Just remembered this scroll had a poll (your Poll, Therise) ... sorry, I tend to routinely ignore them. Repeating what I've recently said elsewhere: I think this poll would produce different results if surveyed outside Candlekeep; we already know quite well what the general D&D edition consensus for the majority of our fellow scribes would be.
Absolutely, no matter where you are with a poll they have distinct limitations. The smaller the population sampled, the less it can be used to generate conclusions about bigger populations. Internet polls in particular tend to skew, as individual forums over time tend to polarize.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 03:08:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Korginard
Pretending 4th Ed never happened seems too much like sticking my head in the sand. It happened, novels have been written, information is out there. I agree with Eric that a setting that acknowledges these changes and moves toward healing the dammage is the way to go.
I feel the best thing for the future of the Realms would be to leave statistics and rules and such to the core rulebooks. I want Realms products to paint me a picture of who folk are, where they reside and travel, and what's over the next hill. Focus on the essence of the world and it's people, not the rules. Give me details about life in the realms that don't require consideration of which set of rules we are using. Look at the Volo's Guides as an excellent example. I treasure the kind of information I found in those books. Details of a person are left to the DM. This person is a 12th level Thief. Use whatever you feel like using to determine what that means in terms of stats and rules.
Now of course said books will have new spells, feats, items, ect that are unique to the realms. All I ask is that flavor trumps statistic.
I also like the idea of different time periods, especially for the novels. Not writting about the world before the spellplauge is as silly as ignoring the world after it.
'Healing the damage' is basically what I have advocated. Although I have used the phrase 'fixing the damage' - because they really, really broke it when they did the Sellplague and (especially) the ill-conceived 100-year time jump. That made absolutely zero sense. The Sellplague could have been done, accomplished their world-trashing, but not left us with...well, with almost nothing of the Realms we knew and loved, if the time jump had been 5 or 10 years. But a century? Awful, awful idea.
I have stated before - they can't undo certain things. The best we could hope for is a Star Trek-style reboot. Where the 'original' timeline continues, but there is a point where, in the past (1370 DR or so), someone arrives from the future and uses their knowledge to change what happens. The original timeline continues unabated, but a new reality takes hold alongside it in the timestream. If it worked for J.J. Abrams, it'll work for Wizbro - you can't just pretend the Sellplague never happened.
OR...make badly-needed repairs:
Unther is gone, Mulhorand is all but gone (and High Imaskar controls what is left), Maztica is gone, Halruaa is gone, most of the beloved figures are gone. These cannot be changed, most likely, EXCEPT...
...Halruaan descendents carve out a pocket of civilization along the Halruaan coast, intent on rebuilding their shattered homeland, no matter the effort or cost. To use an ideas from my home campaign, Qilue Veladorn is returned to life by a mad Vhaeraunite, in a bid to get his deity back, causing the remaining essence of Eilistraee to manifest back in her Outer Planes domain, returning her to full deity-hood (Vhaeraun optional, YMMV). Expatriate Mazticans are found in the far southern reaches of Anchorome, including the tattered fringes of Maztica that survived displacement by Returned Abeir.
And so on. PLUS...the Sword Coast is mostly intact, free of the Wizbro-inspired ridiculousness. A few nips and tucks here and there, all better. The writers for this region have also done stellar work, so they wouldn't need much.
- OMH |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 03:54:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The thing is, though, that more people have complaints about the Spellplague than anything else. It was with the Spellplague that the community became sharply divided -- so if you want to make the larger number of people happy, that's the point you go back to.
No, that satisfies the loudest complainers, assuming that is in fact true which has yet to be proven. That does not satisfy the most people unless the people who dislike the Spellplague outnumber those who don't mind it, which has also not been demonstrated to be true. You are still only satisfying one complaint while ignoring all others and potentially chasing off your current customers. You need to look past personal bais and consider that you might be in a minority. You also need to consider that there is the very real possibility that those people who left won't come back no matter what you do. So, is it worth killing your current business to please people who's greatest wish is to watch your business burn to the ground?
quote:
Nope. Because as I said, up until the Spellplague, I could take the good with the bad.
I assume you see the critical point in your argument? You could handle it up to that point. Again, what about everyone else with an axe to grind?
quote:
Check out almost any thread in these halls that focuses on the Spellplague. You'll see the numbers I'm talking about.
As much as I like this place, if this is the sum total of Realms fans or anything beyond a drop in the bucket then the Realms needs someone who can raise the dead to help it.
quote:
How does giving the old fans what they want create any problems at all? They did it for 20 years without causing a huge divide in the community...
Because you (why you assume you speak for all the old fans or even an appreciable number of them is beyond me) want something that will be dividing and destructive. You dislike what WotC did with the Spellplague. Will they really earn your trust by the act of telling their current fans where they can stick their 4E material? Is anyone really that gullible or do you hate the 4E Realms so much that anything that sends them down in flames will win you back despite there being proof positive that they will stab you in the back the moment someone else can complain louder than you can?
quote:
I'm not talking about retcons for everyone or everything. I'm talking about an alternate timeline, splitting from the single most divisive event in the history of the published Realms.
In what world does that not lead to everyone with an axe to grind demanding their version getting the same treatment? Once you show that WotC will bend if you complain loud enough... well if you can't see the outcome of that then this is a pointless discussion.
quote:
The fanbase is already split. And part of that is because a vocal minority that didn't like the setting and wasn't going to get into it anyway was catered to.
So to fix this your plan is to split it along another line and cater to a group that won't be getting back into it at the cost of the people currently paying the bills?
quote:
And yes, I suggest two concurrent settings. In the minds of some, that's already what we're looking at. And I am again not saying to cater to everyone -- I'm suggesting trying to heal the major split that already exists. There's two main factions of Realms fans -- either they continue to disregard the fans of the older setting, or they try to win them back.
I don't know what to tell people who think there are two settings because there aren't. There is one setting and it's up to them to accept reality or not. They can choose to ignore parts, but that doesn't make it magically cease to be much as they wish it did. Supporting two settings is inviting disaster. You think people are pissed now about 4E? Wait until one of the two universes doesn't pull it's own weight and gets the axe. Be prepared for a whole new definition of pissed because the losing side will absolutely hate the other. If 3E wins you will forever be known as whining children who helped kill another setting to satisfy supremely self centered desires. And if 4E wins...
quote:
Again, I don't see how giving the old school fans something to keep them aboard is going to cause issues.
If they're still aboard they must be okay with 4E or are devoted enough to buy anything with the Realms label. Otherwise they aren't buying anything and aren't really "on board", are they? From there you have to seriously ask, will that actually bring them back? I think it's a foolish assumption personally as I usually don't give companies a second chance at screwing me, especially if they're opening gesture is to screw someone else to win me back.
quote:
Dragonlance has alternate timelines, caused by Raistlin and Fistandantilus and Tasslehoff. Which one is the one, true Dragonlance?
Call them two separate settings. Not an issue.
Nice try. FR A and FR B? The names will be very similar and it will become clear which has preferrence. Now, care to really answer the question?
quote:
Again, the fanbase is already split. Why are you so opposed to trying to reconcile the split?
I'm not opposed to it. For whatever reason you choose to attribute to it, you refuse to see how much of a headache multiple time lines will become. I am not going to guess as to the cause of this, but you need to look at pretty well every other attempt and see how they worked out. On the other hand, I can point to a shining, functional example of what I am talking about. It even has an RPG.
quote:
WotC and TSR before them have already supported multiple settings, even if only two or three. I don't see how supporting the Forgotten Realms and a Classic Realms are going to be any different from supoorting the Forgotten Realms and Eberron.
The problem is that you don't see. FR and Eberron appeal to two different crowds. Likewise with Dragonlance, Dark Sun, etc. Yes, there is some overlap, but overall the different worlds have a different feel. This already fragments the D&D fanbase into different camps, which is already a problem for sales. Now, you are suggesting taking one of those camps and breaking it into smaller pieces. The two FR will not be so different as to draw in different minded crowds but fans will pick sides within the camp. You're talking about having Empire Strikes Back compete against Special Edition Empire Strikes Back, not SW vs Gone With the Wind.
quote:
So if you don't like it, fine, screw you, fix it yourself, we don't care. We've already seen the success of that strategy. Ask Paizo how well that strategy has done for WotC.
Your alternative is "here, we'll hold your hand and print books just for you too". Tell me how that is a better business decision. Tell me how supporting every part of the timeline is saying "screw you". Is the word "every" just not getting through? How can you be more inclusive? Giving in to insane demands is generally a bad move. You never know what demands need to be met next week to keep them in the fold.
quote:
Besides, as I already said, the old fans cannot get any new Realmslore if they don't like the Spellplague. That doesn't make any money for WotC, and it drives the fans to other settings, like Golarion.
Really? Every last second from the dawn of creation up until the Spellplague has been covered in the most minute level of detail? I'm sorry but I am calling complete BS on that. If you think there is nothing left pre Spellplague there's no point in me continuing this.
quote:
Again, what is so horrible about trying to give someone what they want?
In and of itself the idea is nice. However, reality tells us to think before you act. Sure, you can give them what they want. But what if what they want is destructive to your goals? What if they want is insane? What if the only reason you are considering giving in to them is because they have made it their life's purpose to complain about your past actions? What if the people you are trying to placate would watch you burn rather than putting out the fire with a smile on their face? You need to consider who, how, and why you are giving people what they want before you blindly give in because if you give in to the wrong group for the wrong reasons, where does it end?
quote:
What part of I've only found one thing to force me to walk away are you not understanding? In 20 years, it was only when the entire setting became unrecognizable that I had to stop buying things. No other RSE accomplished this, not even close.
What part of, what guarantee do you have they won't do something equally dumb in the future are you not getting? You have zero control over the future actions of WotC. They have let you down before. What rational argument can you present that says they absolutely will not do so again? And yet again, you don't represent anyone beyond yourself. What about everyone with a lower tolerance for these types of events? Do they not count or do only the Spellplague haters deserve to have their feelings tended to?
quote:
But how do you support all parts when there is a predetermined and unavoidable future that people want to avoid?
The same way anyone else who is presently succeeding in doing so does... Is that really a question? I am going to die some day and I consider that a predetermined and unaviodable future that I would rather avoid (though I am unsure which way the majority opinion goes on this matter). I, and most of the rest of the human race, seem to manage somehow. How do you tell SW: Old Republic fans that they can't blow up certain planets because they still exist 5000 years later? Or that The Empire will lose at Endor? How do you tell Battletech fans that nothing will stop the Clan Invasion? Or the Jihad? How do other Realms fans cope with the Time of Troubles even if they hate it with the fury of a thousand suns? These people seem to manage just fine. I happen to think most Realms fans don't need someone to hold their hand and can manage just fine too. You got by just fine through all that other stuff you didn't like. How did you manage? This isn't rocket science. I'll help in any way that I can if anyone is really stuck on something.
quote:
Sure, people may say "My Realms is better than your Realms" -- but we already have that with Eberron, with Dragonlance, and particularly with Greyhawk.
"May"? Really? After all the crap about 4E you think it "might" devolve into that? Wow. Again, this is something I look at and the thought of "how do I get me some of that" never crosses my mind and I have no idea why anyone else wants in on it.
So let me sum this up... We may or may not have a division amongst fans, but it's a horrible idea to try to repair that division, because it either won't be all-inclusive or because someone may decide later they dislike it... Alright, I don't see any way to respond to that that won't come across as snarky. I'm out. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Jan 2012 03:57:17 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 03:58:09
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WotC will try to kiss everyones butt to make them happy. Which won't work. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 04:10:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So let me sum this up... We may or may not have a division amongst fans, but it's a horrible idea to try to repair that division, because it either won't be all-inclusive or because someone may decide later they dislike it... Alright, I don't see any way to respond to that that won't come across as snarky. I'm out.
If that's what you were somehow able to twist what I wrote into then it's probably for the best that you don't try to respond because it's obviously pointless for me to continue trying to explain my point. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 04:37:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So let me sum this up... We may or may not have a division amongst fans, but it's a horrible idea to try to repair that division, because it either won't be all-inclusive or because someone may decide later they dislike it... Alright, I don't see any way to respond to that that won't come across as snarky. I'm out.
If that's what you were somehow able to twist what I wrote into then it's probably for the best that you don't try to respond because it's obviously pointless for me to continue trying to explain my point.
Obviously. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 04:41:05
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I think the biggest aspect of "What to do with 5E and the Realms" for me is being requird to sift though what applies and what doesn't apply to what I want to do. Every time a FR article or source or novel comes out I have to check first and foremost what "Side" it's going to support. Then we (this community) will start to bicker and argue about what side gets more information, what side gets more splat-books, or Realmslore or Setting-Crunch than the other. That seems more like the onset will divide the community than bridge anything.
Then you'll have writers saying one thing on this side when another author writes something on that side and you have a new person say...."What, what the heck is going on?!" I just don't think splitting it up Comic Book style is the best way to venture forth. And if it's anything remote to what they're saying then it'll stay the course that has been set. I dare say a good portion of FR4E material works pretty well with established continunity (some aspects aside) and it looks like 5E is going to pander to people who want to continue forward from that point, yet create rules that work regardless of setting or time during setting. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 04:48:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So let me sum this up... We may or may not have a division amongst fans, but it's a horrible idea to try to repair that division, because it either won't be all-inclusive or because someone may decide later they dislike it... Alright, I don't see any way to respond to that that won't come across as snarky. I'm out.
If that's what you were somehow able to twist what I wrote into then it's probably for the best that you don't try to respond because it's obviously pointless for me to continue trying to explain my point.
Perhaps, then, you could explain your point in a way that doesn't make me think my own words are being twisted? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 04:48:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So let me sum this up... We may or may not have a division amongst fans, but it's a horrible idea to try to repair that division, because it either won't be all-inclusive or because someone may decide later they dislike it... Alright, I don't see any way to respond to that that won't come across as snarky. I'm out.
If that's what you were somehow able to twist what I wrote into then it's probably for the best that you don't try to respond because it's obviously pointless for me to continue trying to explain my point.
Obviously.
Ah, I'm hurt. You didn't even call me Brace. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 04:54:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So let me sum this up... We may or may not have a division amongst fans, but it's a horrible idea to try to repair that division, because it either won't be all-inclusive or because someone may decide later they dislike it... Alright, I don't see any way to respond to that that won't come across as snarky. I'm out.
If that's what you were somehow able to twist what I wrote into then it's probably for the best that you don't try to respond because it's obviously pointless for me to continue trying to explain my point.
Perhaps, then, you could explain your point in a way that doesn't make me think my own words are being twisted?
I have tried to explain how splitting the time line will split the fan base further. I have tried explain what a colossal head ache it will be for WotC and eventually for the fans. I was very clear. I have not been the only one to be very clear. Erik and Diffan have both been pretty clear. It didn't work for DC despite multiple attempts. Marvel does not support alternate timelines the same as they do their main timeline because they know it's the one that matters. Star Wars does exactly what I am saying the Realms should do and it does it well, proving very clearly that it can work. I think the desire to split the timeline is not being thought out to very logical and likely conclusions that will lead to an endless string of future problems. I believe WotC has a poor track record of listening to the squeaky wheel well after that wheel has left the road and isn't coming back and it is usually to the detriment of the product. FR got lucky once in this regard, I see no reason to tempt fate a second time. I don't know what else to tell you to make you see what I am trying to say.
Edit to add:
Maybe that was a copout. I will try to explain what I mean from as many angles as possible.
1) Business. WotC is operating on finite resources (money, talent, personel, time, etc). D&D is given a portion of this. FR is given a portion of that portion. Assuming they divide the timeline, there is no guarantee these resources will increase. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Assuming they do, it won't double. Assuming they don't, they have to split their resources between timelines.
So, if they have to split existing resources, how do they best allocate them? An even 50/50 split between Timeline A and B? That sounds good and fair, but I believe they will review sales and marketing feedback and one will be favored over the other. Based on that it could be either one. Now we need to take into account that most companies don't like to admit they were wrong. Factoring that in, I know which timeline I would put my money on (4E and onward) getting more resources.
However, for the moment let's assume they are split evenly. How do you evenly split Ed Greenwood? Does he have time to write books for both timelines? What about Erik? Paul? Richard? Elaine? They won't all be able to do it, so one side or the other gets left out of their favorite authors. How do they determine who gets what? How do they placate the side that feels most left out? The same applies to game designers.
Moving on from that, eventually one or the other will generate higher sales. This will lead to the timeline with lower sales getting less attention. It's smart business to put your money behind the winner. Maybe the secondary one limps along, or maybe it finally gets completely cut. What happens to the fans of that branch? They aren't going to like WotC for dropping their setting and some of them are going to feel bitter at the fans of the other setting. I believe this is the inevitable outcome.
If that happens, how long does it take for them to decide one or the other is the better horse to back?
Of course, we are also assuming that designers and authors will be able to easily move back and forth and keep everything straight because there will be some crossover in talent. We are also assuming some of the talent won't state a preferrence and stick to it, leaving their fans that backed the other timeline with the choice of continuing to buy their books despite being in a setting they don't want to be a part of or missing their favorite author. I believe this will also lead to more hard feelings between the fan groups.
There is also potential increased printing costs. If the fan base splits, there won't be a need to print as many copies for material of either timeline because neither will sell as many as they currently sell. This means shorter print runs, which depending on their contracts could increase the cost per copy because they are losing some of their bulk discount with a smaller print run.
I also believe all of the new leg work and division of labor needed for this type of project will increase the end price of the products because of increased costs, real or imaginary (they are a company out to make money after all).
2) The fans. I believe that once people see that WotC is willing to to make drastic changes based on massive complaining, the complaining will never end. To use a real world example, it's why you don't negotiate with terrorists. Once you do, anyone with the means to endanger something you like can get whatever they want out of you. I am absolutely not trying to say those who dislike 4E are terrorists or in any real way comparable to them or their goals. I am saying that by blindly giving in to demands the company opens themselves up to an endless stream of complaints that will eventually include, "but you gave them what they wanted" which will simply magnify their anger because now WotC has not only slighted them in some way in the past (leading to their initial complaint) but they have now shown that they do not matter as much as those Anti Spellplague folks. I see it as an unending problem once it starts. All one has to do is look at the current situation. "Those people who complained got their wish with the Spellplague, why can't we get what we want?". WotC is unlikely to take the lead and be the bigger man here so it's up to the fans.
Splitting the timeline will further split the base. Other groups will see what a concentrated campaign of publicly airing their problems can accomplish and they will organize accordingly. Maybe the Spellplague is the most dividing part, but it isn't the only dividing part. This will encourage the other segments to become more and more vocal demanding the same treatment and further divide the fans as smaller groups feel like they are less important.
Fans may also be split for purely economic reasons. Some people simply can't or won't spend enough money to support both lines. Some people won't want to deal with the headache of trying to remember what has and hasn't happened in two different timeline. Likewise with time concerns. Groups will be forced to choose one or the other. This is already true, however, WotC isn't presently trying to sell to one of those two. To wrap this back around to business, now they will be putting out new Pre-Spellplague material which might draw off some 4E/5E fans (cutting into 4E/5E sales) in the hope that the group presently not being catered to will decide to start buying material again. Maybe that will happen, maybe it won't. I honestly have no idea how a company could even begin to measure that possibility, leading me to believe that it is a supreme gamble for them with high cost and little chance of a payoff.
3) Plots. How does the non Spellplague timeline proceed? What is okay with copying from the Spellplague timeline and what isn't? What about events that began before the Spellplague? Does Thay still undergo a civil war? Does it still go the same way, barring Spellplague specific parts? Since it's pre Spellplague, does Shade still control Sembia? How do the events of The Ghost King change? Do they? If there isn't some change then it's just the same only Mystra didn't die and certain bits didn't blow up. If there are big changes, will they be logical or will they just be made to make people say "see, it's different now." I believe this particular line of thought stands an excellent chance to end up just as messed up as the Spellplague.
4) Overlap. Once the Non Spellplague timeline gets around to killing known characters or making them immortal or whatever, should the Post Spellplague setting feel any need to make them match if their fate can be reasonably assumed to also be the same in the Post Spellplague setting? What happens when both sides want to use something Pre Spellplague but their uses are contradictory? Who wins and gets their way? As an example, the Post Spellplague setting needs to have Manshoon do something in the Pre Spellplague era that set a plot into motion that is now coming to fruition involving some previously detailed artifact. The Non Spellplague folks want to use the same artifact for a different purpose and their story requires it to be well beyond Manshoon's grasp at that point in time. Not the best example but hopefully it illustrates my point. So, now you need someone to control Post Spellplague point continuity in two timelines, and someone to ensure both timelines don't have a contradictory moment in their mutual past.
5) NPC overload. It's obvious to me that a number of popular NPCs are going to survive the time jump. Elminster, the Simbul, Storm, Manshoon, Szass Tam, The Shade Princes, Drizzt, etc. Do they decide which timeline gets which, or do they both get them? If they both get them, what stops them from being endlessly used in both to drive sales? Will it actually drive sales or will people get sick of reading about the same people in two timelines? Alternatively, will the authors have the time to write about them in two timelines? If not, who gets who?
I can probably come up with more reasons if I really try, but this should hopefully better explain my point. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
Edited by - Tyrant on 12 Jan 2012 05:58:25 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 05:06:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Imp
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So let me sum this up... We may or may not have a division amongst fans, but it's a horrible idea to try to repair that division, because it either won't be all-inclusive or because someone may decide later they dislike it... Alright, I don't see any way to respond to that that won't come across as snarky. I'm out.
If that's what you were somehow able to twist what I wrote into then it's probably for the best that you don't try to respond because it's obviously pointless for me to continue trying to explain my point.
Obviously.
Ah, I'm hurt. You didn't even call me Brace.
Okay, I really don't think we need that kind of antagonistic behaviour from any scribe.
Let's move on, eh?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 05:07:24
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| Whoever it was that mentioned it'd be nice to see the Realms return to 80% lore usable by any edition and 20% crunch is probably closest to what WotC could do to please the most people most of the time. Regardless, I predict the release of yet another edition is going to end badly for some, as it has with every other new edition that has been released. Someone always feels left behind. I know that sounds horribly cynical, but that's what tends to happen with player fracturing. To be honest, I have no clue how Wizards could salvage the majority of players with so many divisions, if that's truly their objective. I wouldn't want to try and please everyone. Heh. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 05:16:17
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One point in the exchange so far that seems to be overlooked is that the division already exists. Wooley is essentially correct - Wizbro is going to lose people if they don't offer some sort of choice/alternative. Regardless of what any of us thinks, this is a fact. Wizbro shot itself in the groin, and they're going to lose some blood, one way or another.
ESdB did some amazing damage control with the superb work he and others did on the NWCS - but I know for a fact that some people didn't see that book, simply because they were so disgusted with what had been done to the Realms simply to shoehorn it into the ridiculous 'Points of Light' foolishness. In many cases, it was too little, too late
Especially considering that Eberron already filled that niche, it was like squishing an ant with a steamroller. There was no thought, no imagination, no love of the Realms involved when the Points of Light Wrecking Crew went on a delusion-filled destruction bender across Faerun and beyond.
If they aren't going to offer an alternative (and it is my sincere belief that they won't - they just aren't that swift), they had best take some of what the fans would like to see and implement it in the repair job the Realms desperately requires. Return some gods. Bring back some Big Names that aren't Drizzt. Return some real estate. Keep their grubby Sellplagued-tainted mitts away from the Sword Coast. And for the love of all the gods, put Ed Greenwood in charge of it. If anyone has the ability combined with the love of the Realms to salvage what was done, and make it shine again, he does.
- OMH |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 05:29:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So let me sum this up... We may or may not have a division amongst fans, but it's a horrible idea to try to repair that division, because it either won't be all-inclusive or because someone may decide later they dislike it... Alright, I don't see any way to respond to that that won't come across as snarky. I'm out.
If that's what you were somehow able to twist what I wrote into then it's probably for the best that you don't try to respond because it's obviously pointless for me to continue trying to explain my point.
Perhaps, then, you could explain your point in a way that doesn't make me think my own words are being twisted?
I have tried to explain how splitting the time line will split the fan base further. I have tried explain what a colossal head ache it will be for WotC and eventually for the fans. I was very clear. I have not been the only one to be very clear. Erik and Diffan have both been pretty clear. It didn't work for DC despite multiple attempts. Marvel does not support alternate timelines the same as they do their main timeline because they know it's the one that matters. Star Wars does exactly what I am saying the Realms should do and it does it well, proving very clearly that it can work. I think the desire to split the timeline is not being thought out to very logical and likely conclusions that will lead to an endless string of future problems. I believe WotC has a poor track record of listening to the squeaky wheel well after that wheel has left the road and isn't coming back and it is usually to the detriment of the product. FR got lucky once in this regard, I see no reason to tempt fate a second time. I don't know what else to tell you to make you see what I am trying to say.
But since the fanbase has already been split, the damage is already done. At worst, they won't get old fans back. At best, they'll get some of the old fans back, and maybe some new ones, as well.
There's a couple of differences between your Star Wars example and the Realms. One is that Star Wars is operating in eras that are more than just a few generations apart. Another is that Star Wars doesn't have one era that leads directly into another that is so disliked by some that they'd prefer to walk away from it altogether.
And Marvel can't keep one timeline straight. No wonder they don't try it with more than one. They are not a good example, in this case.
I'm looking at this from the standpoint of someone who will likely never again pay retail for a Realms product. I love the Realms enough to have collected everything twice, but I cannot get into the 4E Realms -- and I say that from the standpoint of someone who has bought and read the sourcebooks, and tried a couple of the novels. My opinion is an informed one.
From WotC's standpoint, I am no longer a customer -- they've gotten maybe $30 off of me since 4E was announced. This, from someone who has in the past spent more than $100 on new D&D stuff in a month.
If WotC wants me back as a customer, they need to sell me Realmslore I want. If they sell me an alternate timeline, I'm back -- and many of the people that have left in disgust would come running back, as well.
People already debate settings and timeframes within a setting. Supporting an alternate timeline won't change that -- but I don't see it making it any worse than it already is, either. And WotC has supported multiple settings at once, before. They've already done it, without the catastrophic results you speak of. Why would this be any different?
In short, I don't see that the problems you describe are all that major. Either they already exist, or they are outweighed by the potential benefits. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 06:14:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
One point in the exchange so far that seems to be overlooked is that the division already exists. Wooley is essentially correct - Wizbro is going to lose people if they don't offer some sort of choice/alternative. Regardless of what any of us thinks, this is a fact. Wizbro shot itself in the groin, and they're going to lose some blood, one way or another.
Will it lose customers, or has it already lost them? If they didn't already quit, will not providing them with an option they had no real reason to believe would happen really drive them to quit now? I believe the customers you speak of are already lost and are no longer buying Realms products. In that case, will splitting the timeline stand a reasonable chance of bringing them back? I honestly don't think so and I believe it is a tremendously resource consuming gamble to make on a maybe. I believe a smaller, less cost intensive measure is the best approach. If they come flocking back, showing that they can be appeased, then look into more expensive measures to keep them this time. It won't take many more big gambles failing to sink the whole ship.
quote:
If they aren't going to offer an alternative (and it is my sincere belief that they won't - they just aren't that swift), they had best take some of what the fans would like to see and implement it in the repair job the Realms desperately requires. Return some gods. Bring back some Big Names that aren't Drizzt. Return some real estate. Keep their grubby Sellplagued-tainted mitts away from the Sword Coast. And for the love of all the gods, put Ed Greenwood in charge of it. If anyone has the ability combined with the love of the Realms to salvage what was done, and make it shine again, he does.
- OMH
It's better to fix than to erase with the mighty eraser that is the retcon. Saying "yeah, well, that's how it is now" got us where we are. Doing it again isn't the answer. Showing how things have been rebuilt or are being rebuilt is better. It makes sense. People rebuild. Gods can come back to life. Making it make sense is as important as having it done. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 06:48:25
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I have to say, this discussion back and forth is fascinating, and it's helping me clarify my own thoughts on the matter. What I am seeing are rational arguments by one side, to build and support rather than to split off and continue the divide. They are powerful, positive arguments for growth. And in a negotiation, logic and rationality are important. So is compromise, and that is largely what the rational arguments are asking the anti-Spellplague/4E people to do. Sounds terrific, right? Even noble, in some ways.
The problem with all this? People simply do not make decisions solely based on logic and rationality unless there is no real choice, unless it's a real life and death matter. And this isn't a life or death matter, it's a question of what we like. Are we willing to compromise on what we like in order to become customers as we were before? Those decisions are based solely on the gut, emotional likes and dislikes. "What I want" (meaning the individual, not me specifically) becomes the only important measure in matters of taste, not what is best for a community of people you might never meet in person. Particularly when that community is known to have varying tastes from my own.
As someone who voted to eliminate 4E by re-setting to an earlier edition state, the split is already there. To me, the divide is huge. No "further" split can really happen. All the logical, rational arguments about what's "good for the community" therefore carry no weight for me individually. I felt stepped on and discarded several years ago. And now they're asking me to compromise just to become a customer again? That situation, from where I sit -right now- serves only to benefit them and not me in any way. I am more than capable of taking all the prior lore that I love and fleshing out a world -entirely- to my tastes. Any good DM can. Yet if I "compromise", I'm telling them that I'm not only okay with how they stepped on me and tossed me out, but I'm now somehow fine with buying 100% of their product and being content with 25% of it (read: 25% stuff that makes me happy, 75% stuff I have to choke down) because of some questionable "moral support of the community" belief. That's offensive to me on a level that I can't quite explain, because again it's a gut-level decision. If I go that route, I know for a fact that the stuff I hate will sit in my craw and fester. Why would I want that?
So honestly, what is the benefit of my compromising when they will not? This is no life or death matter in real life, I have no real need to be pragmatic or compromise in this situation whatsoever. They have lost me as a customer, years ago. And honestly, I diverged my own Realms way before the Spellplague; but it's the era of the Spellplague that utterly made me stop buying 95% of their products. From my perspective, I was telling them long ago to stop the endless RSEs, and I still continued to purchase novels and gaming materials post 2E and into 3E. At least I could adapt most of that, even if I didn't like some of the core events (Time of Troubles, returned Shade and the Shadowvar, etc.). But I was "compromising" back then. No more, I say. The Spellplague/Abeir/etc went too far. So at this point, if they want me back, -they- need to give me what I want. For the company, the real question is how much they will compromise based on how many people they think they can get back, isn't it?
Others like, even love 4E Realms. I have no qualms with those individuals, because I see them as people who like a totally different timeline already compared to my home Realms. But should -I- be asked to purchase materials I'm 75% unhappy with, to support a Realms timeline for someone else's pleasure? Would you ask someone to buy a car they didn't like, furniture that "wasn't quite comfortable", or buy a computer brand they didn't particularly like because it's somehow good for your town or neighborhood? No. Decisions like this are always made by the individual at the gut level, the emotional level. And that's as it should be, I think.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 12 Jan 2012 06:50:04 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 06:51:34
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Wooly I edited my last post to detail what I am talking about, please read it.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But since the fanbase has already been split, the damage is already done. At worst, they won't get old fans back. At best, they'll get some of the old fans back, and maybe some new ones, as well.
Yes, damage has been done. I don't want to see more damage done with another pointless split that in my opinion will cost far more than it will have any hope of gaining causing a net loss for the Realms. Priority number one has to be to keep the current customers. Number two is get more fans, either new fans or old fans returning, and to do so as cheaply as possible. An alternate timeline will not be cheap.
quote:
There's a couple of differences between your Star Wars example and the Realms. One is that Star Wars is operating in eras that are more than just a few generations apart.
My proposal would see the Realms also operate in eras seperated by millenia and to very likely lump 1-3 together. That's also not a very accurate description of the SW eras. I was wrong in an earlier post when I described them. Only one of their eras is a tremendous stretch of time. They go Old Republic (5000-33 years before ANH), Rise of the Empire (33-0 years before ANH), Rebellion (0-5 years after ANH), New Republic (5-25 years after ANH), New Jedi Order (25-40 years after ANH), Legacy (40+ years after ANH). A New Hope is the defining moment of their timeline. I expect that eventually the Legacy Era will be broken up because some stories take place way beyond 40 years after ANH. But, my point is, they have several era piled right on top of each other that the movie characters survived through (except Chewie). I don't see why the Realms would be that different. I would divide the distant past into major eras instead of one all encompassing "past" though.
quote:
Another is that Star Wars doesn't have one era that leads directly into another that is so disliked by some that they'd prefer to walk away from it altogether.
You don't follow SW much do you? There are a lot of people that would wipe out the Vong years (the New Jedi Order era) from existence if they could. Likewise with the prequels. Hating part of the franchise with the fury of a thousand suns is the sign of a true Star Wars fan.
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And Marvel can't keep one timeline straight. No wonder they don't try it with more than one. They are not a good example, in this case.
They are a perfect example. Keeping one timeline straight is a tough job that not everyone is up to. Multiple timelines is suicide.
quote:
and many of the people that have left in disgust would come running back, as well.
Based on what? That's the crux of my point. You can speak for yourself, what about everyone else? Why will it work for them? I've seen the fury WotC can create in people first hand. The people I saw at GenCon who were upset when they announced the 2.0 version of the miniatures game wouldn't have given WotC another penny if it would've cured cancer and brought about world peace. There is no placating that kind of hate. What I want to know is, how many people are at that point vs how many people are willing to be reasonable. How many people are actually going to come back because of an alternate timeline? Will they feel slighted if their dream timeline is obviously the alternate?
quote:
People already debate settings and timeframes within a setting. Supporting an alternate timeline won't change that -- but I don't see it making it any worse than it already is, either.
Really? Round after round of "Elminster is better as a crazy old man with no Goddess" "No, he's better as a superhero" with a side helping of "Oh great, the Justice League of Fearun is back" won't be an escalation over the usual "Hey I like Shade, what about you?" "Shade sucks, I wish they would all die" (which of course will now include "Oh great, two timelines dominated by Shade.") Our arguments will go from being mostly limited to which aspects we like vs dislike to now including the all new dimension of which timeline does it better.
quote:
And WotC has supported multiple settings at once, before. They've already done it, without the catastrophic results you speak of. Why would this be any different?
Because these are unlikely to be given the full attention of two different settings, in short. The longer answer is in my edited post above.
quote:
In short, I don't see that the problems you describe are all that major. Either they already exist, or they are outweighed by the potential benefits.
No, all of the problems do not already exist. There will be many others. Read my edited post to see what I mean. I also have extreme doubt about those potential benefits. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 07:22:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I have to say, this discussion back and forth is fascinating, and it's helping me clarify my own thoughts on the matter. What I am seeing are rational arguments by one side, to build and support rather than to split off and continue the divide. They are powerful, positive arguments for growth. And in a negotiation, logic and rationality are important. So is compromise, and that is largely what the rational arguments are asking the anti-Spellplague/4E people to do. Sounds terrific, right? Even noble, in some ways.
The problem with all this? People simply do not make decisions solely based on logic and rationality unless there is no real choice, unless it's a real life and death matter. And this isn't a life or death matter, it's a question of what we like. Are we willing to compromise on what we like in order to become customers as we were before? Those decisions are based solely on the gut, emotional likes and dislikes. "What I want" (meaning the individual, not me specifically) becomes the only important measure in matters of taste, not what is best for a community of people you might never meet in person. Particularly when that community is known to have varying tastes from my own.
As someone who voted to eliminate 4E by re-setting to an earlier edition state, the split is already there. To me, the divide is huge. No "further" split can really happen. All the logical, rational arguments about what's "good for the community" therefore carry no weight for me individually. I felt stepped on and discarded several years ago. And now they're asking me to compromise just to become a customer again? That situation, from where I sit -right now- serves only to benefit them and not me in any way. I am more than capable of taking all the prior lore that I love and fleshing out a world -entirely- to my tastes. Any good DM can. Yet if I "compromise", I'm telling them that I'm not only okay with how they stepped on me and tossed me out, but I'm now somehow fine with buying 100% of their product and being content with 25% of it (read: 25% stuff that makes me happy, 75% stuff I have to choke down) because of some questionable "moral support of the community" belief. That's offensive to me on a level that I can't quite explain, because again it's a gut-level decision. If I go that route, I know for a fact that the stuff I hate will sit in my craw and fester. Why would I want that?
So honestly, what is the benefit of my compromising when they will not? This is no life or death matter in real life, I have no real need to be pragmatic or compromise in this situation whatsoever. They have lost me as a customer, years ago. And honestly, I diverged my own Realms way before the Spellplague; but it's the era of the Spellplague that utterly made me stop buying 95% of their products. From my perspective, I was telling them long ago to stop the endless RSEs, and I still continued to purchase novels and gaming materials post 2E and into 3E. At least I could adapt most of that, even if I didn't like some of the core events (Time of Troubles, returned Shade and the Shadowvar, etc.). But I was "compromising" back then. No more, I say. The Spellplague/Abeir/etc went too far. So at this point, if they want me back, -they- need to give me what I want. For the company, the real question is how much they will compromise based on how many people they think they can get back, isn't it?
Others like, even love 4E Realms. I have no qualms with those individuals, because I see them as people who like a totally different timeline already compared to my home Realms. But should -I- be asked to purchase materials I'm 75% unhappy with, to support a Realms timeline for someone else's pleasure? Would you ask someone to buy a car they didn't like, furniture that "wasn't quite comfortable", or buy a computer brand they didn't particularly like because it's somehow good for your town or neighborhood? No. Decisions like this are always made by the individual at the gut level, the emotional level. And that's as it should be, I think.
Thank you for clearly and calmly stating your views. I do have a few questions though.
1) Based on common assumptions about the Hasbro/WotC relationship and the current health of the overall D&D franchise, how is this not likely a life or death matter for the Realms IP? It seems to me that is exactly the moment we have almost reached due to the health of D&D, which the Realms has found it's fate bound to.
2) How are the Pro Spellplague people not compromising with their proposal? Resources are finite. To spend any on lore or novels for past eras is to not spend them on the current era. The proposal would call for fewer resources going to the Post Spellplague era in an attempt to give other fans what they want. It's not a 50/50 split, but it is an admission that other fans need love too.
As an aside, I don't believe everyone voting that way is Pro Spellplague. I believe some of them (no clue how many though) simply don't see the point in retcons or multiple time lines.
3) Suppose they do go your preferred route and you go back to being a customer. What is your realistic tolerance of bad moves on the part of WotC before you drop them again? Given your comments that you have been dealing with bad decisions well before the Spellplague, and realizing that despite any intentions they may have, they and you are human and you will eventually disagree, isn't it a 100% possibility that they will continue to make decisions you disagree with?
I'm asking these because I am honestly curious about your outlook. I agree with your belief that people will decide with their gut. I understand that people feel they have been wronged. I get that they want something they seriously dislike to just go away. However, I believe we are in one of those situations where logic and reason have to be employed by those deciding the course of the franchise. Customers will continue to follow their gut of course. No one is saying you should buy something you don't want "for the greater good". I don't agree with anyone who thinks that. I won't buy things for the greater good. But, I believe the franchise must attempt to cater to the greater good and heal as many wounds as they can without creating more. They can't please everyone and they won't win everyone back. Some people will never come back no matter what WotC does. Others have simply moved on. But some people might come back and some new fans might be found and I believe there are more efficient ways to win them over than to bet it all on an alternate timeline or major retcon. Betting it all didn't work last time. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 07:49:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
Thank you for clearly and calmly stating your views. I do have a few questions though.
Well, I hope I always come across as being clear and calm. I probably don't 100% of the time, but I aim for that.
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1) Based on common assumptions about the Hasbro/WotC relationship and the current health of the overall D&D franchise, how is this not likely a life or death matter for the Realms IP? It seems to me that is exactly the moment we have almost reached due to the health of D&D, which the Realms has found it's fate bound to.
It may indeed be a life or death matter for the Realms IP. For the company, they certainly must take a critical, logical view of potential profits and losses. The company can't afford to make the same emotional decision that the customer always will.
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2) How are the Pro Spellplague people not compromising with their proposal? Resources are finite. To spend any on lore or novels for past eras is to not spend them on the current era. The proposal would call for fewer resources going to the Post Spellplague era in an attempt to give other fans what they want. It's not a 50/50 split, but it is an admission that other fans need love too.
At this very moment, the pro-Spellplague/4E people have exactly what they want, or they wouldn't be buying it (or have already bought into it). They will make the same emotional decision that anti-4E Realms people do (i.e. "do I really like it?"), and they should.
What the -company- must decide, though, is whether or not the customers they gained by 4E are worth potentially turning off. WotC did make this decision with the old customer base prior to 4E, essentially believing that the people that they would gain would be greater in number than the people lost. Every edition change will lose "some", but only the company has the actual numbers and can therefore even begin to make a stab at statistical gains/losses.
My sense, which is in no way scientific or based in fact, is that they appear to have lost more than they gained. That, or it was a "wash" for numbers. If it was more loss with 4E than gain, it might benefit them to scrap 4E. If it was more of a "wash", it would probably make more sense for them to stand with 4E but soften all those changes.
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As an aside, I don't believe everyone voting that way is Pro Spellplague. I believe some of them (no clue how many though) simply don't see the point in retcons or multiple time lines.
At this point, the fanbase is highly fractured. I don't think it's as simple as pro or con Spellplague/4E. I think the roots go deeper, and the opinions on what to change (or not) are highly, highly varied.
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3) Suppose they do go your preferred route and you go back to being a customer. What is your realistic tolerance of bad moves on the part of WotC before you drop them again? Given your comments that you have been dealing with bad decisions well before the Spellplague, and realizing that despite any intentions they may have, they and you are human and you will eventually disagree, isn't it a 100% possibility that they will continue to make decisions you disagree with?
It depends, just like it depends for any customer. Speaking only for myself, I think I was pretty tolerant of the crazy that went on in both 2E and 3E. It is quite possible that even if they gave me exactly what I wanted right now, they could do something that totally turns me off in the future. But isn't that true for any customer, really?
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I'm asking these because I am honestly curious about your outlook. I agree with your belief that people will decide with their gut. I understand that people feel they have been wronged. I get that they want something they seriously dislike to just go away. However, I believe we are in one of those situations where logic and reason have to be employed by those deciding the course of the franchise. Customers will continue to follow their gut of course. No one is saying you should buy something you don't want "for the greater good". I don't agree with anyone who thinks that. I won't buy things for the greater good. But, I believe the franchise must attempt to cater to the greater good and heal as many wounds as they can without creating more. They can't please everyone and they won't win everyone back. Some people will never come back no matter what WotC does. Others have simply moved on. But some people might come back and some new fans might be found and I believe there are more efficient ways to win them over than to bet it all on an alternate timeline or major retcon. Betting it all didn't work last time.
Ultimately, yes, the company will have to decide logically what is best, in terms of gaining enough (retaining? bringing back? drilling up more?) customers to make whatever they do "worth it" to them.
But I wouldn't ever expect a ton of customers to buy into a rational decision for any company. I'm not sure, since we are inherently imbedded in the "problem" itself, if we can ever really understand what would be "best" for the IP. There are just too many things we don't know and probably never will: sales figures, internal company resources, true group customer dynamics, etc.
Whatever they do, it's unavoidable that they'll have some attrition just because of the rules change. They have to do the best thing for their IP, based on what will gain them customers. Whatever that might be. If it ends up that the "best thing" for the company and the IP doesn't bring me back as a customer, though, I haven't gained or lost anything really. I still have my old stuff. But I would be more than happy to return as a customer, if they give me what I want.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 12 Jan 2012 08:02:30 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 07:49:28
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I've been following this thread and only decided to reply because I saw me being mentioned. Waves at Markus, hey man, thanks so much that's a great honor but I'd only take that position now as someone who keeps track of anything before the Grand History.
Anyhow, beyond that, Therise and Wooly have said pretty much anything I'd have to say. As someone who threw in the towel, so to speak, because of the Spell plague, the only way Wizards would ever see money from me again for FR is if they made material that was before the Spell Plague. Even during 3e, like Therise, I was tired of the RSE's but I lived with them even if I never used them in my version but I still supported the setting, knowing that the Realms was still pretty much the same and the people were pretty much still alive. But when 100 years passed, sorry, that's not the Realms to me any more, it's a whole new setting.
Anyhow, as I said I only decided to post in this because of the honor Markus gave me and to pretty much agree with Therise and Wooly. Otherwise, I haven't had much to say on the site for awhile, I don't feel "at home" here like I used to because of a lot of bickering that continued on and on and on, and some private words that were said to me at the last Gencon that I went to around the time 4e was being published. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 08:15:40
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Here's something else, and it's going to sound a little (or a lot) like "geez, those customers, can't tell what the heck they want!"
Let's say they ditch 4E. With 4E gone, I'd happily start purchasing new Realms material for the game. But because I like certain authors, I would still be willing to buy their "finish up the trilogy" books in 4E. Sound weird? Talk about a purchase with major ambivalence involved!
I think it's quite possible that a lot of what's perceived as enjoying 4E has been based on novel purchases. And that may not be a good litmus test at all. I've bought several 4E novels, but it's because I like the author more than I hate the 4E changes. But there isn't any way in the world that I'll buy a 4E Realms game supplement, I don't care which designer wrote it.
I'm certain that I can't be alone in this. So I think it's one of those "customer factors" they need to really understand better before any big changes are made. Other customers will have ways that they're willing to bend, as well. 4E enthusiasts might not even be as put off from a re-set as we might think, particularly those that have divorced the rules from the games and novels.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 12 Jan 2012 08:19:06 |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 09:05:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
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Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
One point in the exchange so far that seems to be overlooked is that the division already exists. Wooley is essentially correct - Wizbro is going to lose people if they don't offer some sort of choice/alternative. Regardless of what any of us thinks, this is a fact. Wizbro shot itself in the groin, and they're going to lose some blood, one way or another.
Will it lose customers, or has it already lost them? If they didn't already quit, will not providing them with an option they had no real reason to believe would happen really drive them to quit now? I believe the customers you speak of are already lost and are no longer buying Realms products. In that case, will splitting the timeline stand a reasonable chance of bringing them back? I honestly don't think so and I believe it is a tremendously resource consuming gamble to make on a maybe. I believe a smaller, less cost intensive measure is the best approach. If they come flocking back, showing that they can be appeased, then look into more expensive measures to keep them this time. It won't take many more big gambles failing to sink the whole ship.
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If they aren't going to offer an alternative (and it is my sincere belief that they won't - they just aren't that swift), they had best take some of what the fans would like to see and implement it in the repair job the Realms desperately requires. Return some gods. Bring back some Big Names that aren't Drizzt. Return some real estate. Keep their grubby Sellplagued-tainted mitts away from the Sword Coast. And for the love of all the gods, put Ed Greenwood in charge of it. If anyone has the ability combined with the love of the Realms to salvage what was done, and make it shine again, he does.
- OMH
It's better to fix than to erase with the mighty eraser that is the retcon. Saying "yeah, well, that's how it is now" got us where we are. Doing it again isn't the answer. Showing how things have been rebuilt or are being rebuilt is better. It makes sense. People rebuild. Gods can come back to life. Making it make sense is as important as having it done.
That was my point. Since we know that they will not go back and erase their...hmmm...'less than stellar ideas'...they need to take stock of where the timeline sits right now, and without having to resort to retcons, start fixing what they broke. Okay...what they brutally smashed.
This means listening...actually listening...to the people who know the Realms far better than they ever could. Their freelance writers have all demonstrated a knowledge of, and love for, the Realms that seem to continually elude them - if I had my druthers, ESdB and the James brothers (to name those that immediately spring to mind) would gather under the direction of Ed Greenwood and get to work. Tack on an additional five or ten years to the timeline, and use those years to fix, really fix, what Wizbro shattered (i.e. the Shattered Realms gets put back together again).
Some things, you couldn't fix. Unther. Maztica. And so on. But other things, you could. Small fixes to the Sword Coast to slowly steer it back to what it used to be. Start rebuilding Halruaa. Bring back some of the Seven Sisters. Bring back Helm, Eilistraee, Tyr, and Vhaeraun (for starters). Re-establish crintri in Dambrath. Re-populate Eryndlyn. Rebuild Zhentil Keep and/or the Citadel of the Raven. Oh, and massively tone down the Sellplague. And the list could go on and on (these are just some suggestions...I am sure people could come up with lots more).
They don't need to promise a retcon. But they do need to give us Realms-lovers something...for pity's sake, anything. Apart from the Neverwinter material (which you can tell was not an in-house project), we've been battered like toy boats in a tempest, straining to get to shore in hopes of finding a safe port that never appears. Some of us still hope we might get there, still.
But that's not our call. Wizbro knows what we want. They know they stepped in the steaming pile of brown. And it's entirely on them to fix it.
- OMH |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 11:03:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
One point in the exchange so far that seems to be overlooked is that the division already exists. Wooley is essentially correct - Wizbro is going to lose people if they don't offer some sort of choice/alternative. Regardless of what any of us thinks, this is a fact. Wizbro shot itself in the groin, and they're going to lose some blood, one way or another.
Will it lose customers, or has it already lost them? If they didn't already quit, will not providing them with an option they had no real reason to believe would happen really drive them to quit now? I believe the customers you speak of are already lost and are no longer buying Realms products. In that case, will splitting the timeline stand a reasonable chance of bringing them back? I honestly don't think so and I believe it is a tremendously resource consuming gamble to make on a maybe. I believe a smaller, less cost intensive measure is the best approach. If they come flocking back, showing that they can be appeased, then look into more expensive measures to keep them this time. It won't take many more big gambles failing to sink the whole ship.
quote:
If they aren't going to offer an alternative (and it is my sincere belief that they won't - they just aren't that swift), they had best take some of what the fans would like to see and implement it in the repair job the Realms desperately requires. Return some gods. Bring back some Big Names that aren't Drizzt. Return some real estate. Keep their grubby Sellplagued-tainted mitts away from the Sword Coast. And for the love of all the gods, put Ed Greenwood in charge of it. If anyone has the ability combined with the love of the Realms to salvage what was done, and make it shine again, he does.
- OMH
It's better to fix than to erase with the mighty eraser that is the retcon. Saying "yeah, well, that's how it is now" got us where we are. Doing it again isn't the answer. Showing how things have been rebuilt or are being rebuilt is better. It makes sense. People rebuild. Gods can come back to life. Making it make sense is as important as having it done.
That was my point. Since we know that they will not go back and erase their...hmmm...'less than stellar ideas'...they need to take stock of where the timeline sits right now, and without having to resort to retcons, start fixing what they broke. Okay...what they brutally smashed.
This means listening...actually listening...to the people who know the Realms far better than they ever could. Their freelance writers have all demonstrated a knowledge of, and love for, the Realms that seem to continually elude them - if I had my druthers, ESdB and the James brothers (to name those that immediately spring to mind) would gather under the direction of Ed Greenwood and get to work. Tack on an additional five or ten years to the timeline, and use those years to fix, really fix, what Wizbro shattered (i.e. the Shattered Realms gets put back together again).
Some things, you couldn't fix. Unther. Maztica. And so on. But other things, you could. Small fixes to the Sword Coast to slowly steer it back to what it used to be. Start rebuilding Halruaa. Bring back some of the Seven Sisters. Bring back Helm, Eilistraee, Tyr, and Vhaeraun (for starters). Re-establish crintri in Dambrath. Re-populate Eryndlyn. Rebuild Zhentil Keep and/or the Citadel of the Raven. Oh, and massively tone down the Sellplague. And the list could go on and on (these are just some suggestions...I am sure people could come up with lots more).
They don't need to promise a retcon. But they do need to give us Realms-lovers something...for pity's sake, anything. Apart from the Neverwinter material (which you can tell was not an in-house project), we've been battered like toy boats in a tempest, straining to get to shore in hopes of finding a safe port that never appears. Some of us still hope we might get there, still.
But that's not our call. Wizbro knows what we want. They know they stepped in the steaming pile of brown. And it's entirely on them to fix it.
- OMH
While i admit that some aspects of the current realms leave me cold I don't think that turning back the clock is the right solution. I agree that the realms as it is cannot rationally be expected to survive but to resurrect most of the fallen gods and empires sounds to gimmicky to me. Like when Barry Allen was brought back by DC. I mean do we want the realms to turn into the sort of place where you die only to return a few issues later?
If the realms is to be stabilized i think it should be left up to new heroes for the most part. Perhaps a few iconic characters like Mystra should be revived. |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 11:06:56
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| Keep dreaming, it's obvious that the Wizards realized their mistake and they will return to the real Realms |
z455t |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 13:51:35
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Drizzt and Elminster are iconic, images of them invoke associations with greater things within the Realms.
But I don't see Mystra as being iconic. Mystra, to my mind, is just another deity for characters to worship, one whose greatest claim to notoriety is the size of the craters her repeated dying leaves behind.
I've seen a lot of sages describing details from their gaming in ways which always depict Mystra as the great and noble hero-goddess supreme. Mystra hires the players to crusade against an evil thing, Mystra's champions scour away the invading orcs, Mystra's clergy defends the city during a siege, etc. Those are all noble and worthy causes, of course ... but to my mind Mystra is not the deity who should be involved in such stuff, she is a weaver of magic, not an uppity righteous-smiting paladin goddess. Of course I cannot blame Wizbro for how people choose to play their game, but I do sometimes wonder if Mystra has gotten too much attention which would deservedly go towards other deities, if Mystra has been miscast into a generic "good vs evil" role which is categorically not hers to govern. What's the point of even having the rest of the pantheon around if they're always just pawns and backprops in the endless conflicts between Mystra and her enemies? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Jan 2012 13:58:59 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 14:11:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Drizzt and Elminster are iconic, images of them invoke associations with greater things within the Realms.
But I don't see Mystra as being iconic. Mystra, to my mind, is just another deity for characters to worship, one whose greatest claim to notoriety is the size of the craters her repeated dying leaves behind.
I've seen a lot of sages describing details from their gaming in ways which always depict Mystra as the great and noble hero-goddess supreme. Mystra hires the players to crusade against an evil thing, Mystra's champions scour away the invading orcs, Mystra's clergy defends the city during a siege, etc. Those are all noble and worthy causes, of course ... but to my mind Mystra is not the deity who should be involved in such stuff, she is a weaver of magic, not an uppity righteous-smiting paladin goddess. Of course I cannot blame Wizbro for how people choose to play their game, but I do sometimes wonder if Mystra has gotten too much attention which would deservedly go towards other deities, if Mystra has been miscast into a generic "good vs evil" role which is categorically not hers to govern. What's the point of even having the rest of the pantheon around if they're always just pawns and backprops in the endless conflicts between Mystra and her enemies?
Getting rid of Mystra the cosmic do-gooder deity needs to happen, whether they re-set the Realms to an earlier state or if they keep the 4E changes as part of history.
It's, as you say, just not her job. It shouldn't be in her list of goals to act how she did. I think in some ways, she was poisoned by Midnight (Ariel Manx). Given the name "Midnight", I've been surprised that the Shar-loving designers of late 3E and 4E never went down the road of having Midnight revealed as a Sharran plot to completely destabilize Mystra.
I still think there's a deep-level plot there that would be interesting to explore, that among the chaos caused by Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul during the ToT, Shar saw a way to essentially poison Mystra.
IMO, we need the old Mystryl back, neutral and concerned only with magic. Or reveal that Lurue -is- an avatar of old Mystryl... and eventually rejects rejoining with this fragment of poisoned Mystra/Midnight that seems to have survived.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 14:17:24
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A truly wonderful discussion going on here, one that it has been a joy to read. :)
After reading so many of the opinions and ideas here (my own included), I'm finding more and more that coming back to the Realms just may not be in the cards for me. I quite loathe the Realms of 4E in pretty much all regards. As many have said, it just isn't the same and has little or no connection to the Realms I love. While I would love for the 4E Realms to "go away", I don't think that would set my mind at ease and bring me back in to the fold. It would be pretty much the same as what was done to usher in 4E. Blow it all up. I find I can't say "blowing it up for 4E was a colossal blunder and I hate it, I'm done" and "go back to pre-4E Realms and I'm a customer again" without sounding like a complete hypocrite. It's the same thing, just in reverse.
There have been some alternatives suggested that might be less hypocritical (alternate timelines, altering history via time travel, etc), but I can't help but agree with many that forward is the way to go. "You can't go home again" sums up my thoughts.
So I'm stuck in a loop, as it were. Forward is the way to go, but I will not return to a Realms where 4E happened.
I'd love to go home again....but it will just never be the same. My new home in Golarion is pretty damn nice though. |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
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WotC is asking for input, so...
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