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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 06:23:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I think this multiple timeline idea is being misunderstood. What I am talking about (and what I believe Erik is talking about) is one, single timeline with support for multiple portions of said timeline.
Indeed, that's what I meant. Going by Sage's definition, what I don't want is "alternate realities" or "multiple canons." I want one single canon--this is the baseline for the Realms, take it and do what you will with it. I don't think anyone is served by having multiple canons and multiple Realms.
That works for me.
I've enough trouble trying to maintain the multiple continuities of my current fiction/gaming world of Zhoth'ilam.
quote:
I want a single timeline, with support for multiple spots on that timeline. There can be a lot of activity at certain points (i.e. 1370s, 1480s, etc.), but there can and should be activity wherever on the single golden timeline of the Realms.
The only additional request I would make along these lines, is that the oversight provided to ensure continuity between the various time-points should recognise that the fanbase usually has preference for one or the other time-point over the rest. So ALL points should be respected, and none ignored in favour of what's to come or what's already past.
quote:
No retcons. The lore is all there. We should not be in the business of invalidating it.
Perfectly said. The 20+ years of lore allows for virtually unlimited exploration into the setting and it's history.
A retcon can, and usually will, introduce needless complexity -- especially when, in the case of the Realms, there is already enough inherent complexity built into the setting over the last two decades. Most of which could potentially be used to help explain the otherwise projected need for a retcon.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 11 Jan 2012 06:26:03 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 06:36:14
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I'm with Erik here.
don't nned muti timelines.
to much crap to remember.
I can see it now in the future I'll be gaming with erik and the fool sitting next to me blurts out that j edgar hoover is currently running the secret dragons of Corymr when in fact it's Al( scarface) Capone. and then the fool blsuhes as he realizes his mistake.
hahahahaha
to much to much to keep track of.
I am however all for have campaign settings of each era of the realms.
the early editions up to the current.
does it have to happen, well no.
I can and will buy the 5e fr campaign books( unless Im dead ) if they fix the mess they unintitentional made out of the 4e realms. Honestly , we really don't need a reason to explain a ruleset change unless I win the lotto and buy it from hasbro.....
retcon it and say it was always this way.
yeah its cheesy, it maybe rude but its far easier to pick up and go from there.
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 06:38:14
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| oh and I nominate Lord KArsus for the FR traffic cop position. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 07:33:29
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Actually, I think the Realmslore "traffic cop" lore-handler is no longer necessary. Yes, Jeff Grubb (or Ed, perhaps others) did a fine job coordinating parallel product lines and teams of game designers/authors back when (2E) D&D expanded into multiple horizontal worlds and rulesets. But that position was terminated and lore throughout D&D and the Realms has still managed to retain high consistency throughout - even during and after the 4E setting reformat. I think to some extent the "traffic cop" chores have been distributed; now voluntarily assumed by Ed overall, by Elaine and RAS in their corners of the Realms, by all the many other authors who do the research and legwork needed to get things "right". For the most part they aren't just people making money off the game, they're often fans and DMs and players who love the setting as avidly as we do. Those who don't love the Realms generally write poorly-received Realmslore novels and don't get a second chance; their mistakes are usually limited by cleanup efforts from authors who do care about the Realms.
Some authors (ESdB comes to mind first) are conspicuously obvious in Candlekeep and a dozen other D&D fansites, constantly following and discussing Realmslore, consulting the scribes (fanbase) and subtly probing for reactions to different ideas which might be worked into their Realms-canon storylines. Others (like Christopher Rowe) are less visibly active - except when promoting interest in their upcoming publications - but their participation in Realmslore discussions is exhaustively researched and highly insightful, their ideas on Realmslore are painstakingly "accurate" and align well with fan expectations. I'm confident that although we never see it, the authors and designers frequently consult each other (or deploy their peers to places like Candlekeep) to determine how they can forge Realmslore which remains consistent with canon and fanon expectations.
So I maintain that a traffic cop is not really needed, most especially since there are fewer D&D people working on fewer D&D projects now than there were in those frantic days of 2E cornucopia. A cop is only needed when enforcement is needed to force disorder into order ... and I haven't seen much great disorder which needs correcting. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Jan 2012 07:39:00 |
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Brix
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 09:43:51
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quote:
In other words, do a Waterdeep sourcebook, and then give us TWO different web-enhancements (or more), for each era, detailing the 'whos who' and 'current clack'. Maybe that would work. One sourcebook, two separate attachments (similar, almost, to how some of the 3e MMs had "In the Realms..." or "In Eberron...", etc).
That would work for me, too.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 11:19:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
One thing I absolutely do NOT support is the concept of having alternate timelines or alternate futures or such weirdness. Regardless of era, it is all one Realms--warts and all--and it should be kept to that singular standard.
Unfortunately the 4e Realms by its marriage of setting to rules and default PoL material causes a singular problem with 5e allowing people to play in whatever FR they want. If it keeps the Spellplague and 4e changes intact within the timeline of the setting, even if allowing you to play pre-Spellplague, it would seem to still force the inclusion of the slew of cosmology and history retcons it introduced. Primordials, Abeir, different origins and roles for various outsiders, some of the 1e/2e/3e outsider races didn't exist and never existed despite having roles within FR's history...
That's a problem that would easily be solved by having the 4e Realms as an alternate universe/timeline.
Some of the general 4e cosmology discontinuities with 1e/2e/3e, despite being monumental in scope, have possible solutions that still allow for possible inclusion into a larger continuity. Actually writing that sort of stuff up would be a fascinating task if you ask me. But I dabble my toes in all sorts of cosmologies: Planescape, Golarion's Great Beyond, etc. That stuff is up my alley. Within a single focused campaign setting like FR though, I think that at some point you have to choose to disappoint one group or else disappoint everyone involved.
I personally would prefer to dump all of the PoL stuff retconned into FR (though I'm not absolutely against it retaining a unique cosmology ala 3e versus the 1e/2e usage of the Great Wheel - though I use FR within the Wheel, and went out of my way to include a cleric of Lathander within a 3e Planescape piece in Dragon) |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 13:48:29
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| I think the biggest issue is the constant need to advance the setting timeline in the first place. This tends to cause way too many dramatic shift in a setting over a short period of time as authors write "bigger" stories. It also forces future canon into the Realms and slowly but surely takes it away from that spectacular setting Ed had originally designed. I would like to note that the first Realms novels (up to the Avatar series) were ALL set prior to the Gray Box. There is no reason that we couldn't reset the timeline back to that great setting (allowing all books published since then to be possible outcomes, but no longer official canon) and then encourage authors to set more stories in the past (and limit RSE's naturally, since we would already know which ones happened). History is much more important to the realism of a setting than advancing a timeline and keeping the setting set at a certain point still allows for writer creativity without worrying about destroying the spirit of the original setting over time. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 13:56:22
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| For me the timeline always advanced too fast, it should have been one month in Realms equals one year in real life. Right now it would be 1360 DR. |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 15:14:10
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My only request?
A good map.
I like the 4E Realms, Spellplague and other massive changes included, but the map is absolute crap. (Sorry to be so blunt.)
The new Realms, in whatever form it takes, simply requires decent maps. The Schley maps for the DDi articles are the quality I would like to see. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 16:14:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
One thing I absolutely do NOT support is the concept of having alternate timelines or alternate futures or such weirdness. Regardless of era, it is all one Realms--warts and all--and it should be kept to that singular standard.
Unfortunately the 4e Realms by its marriage of setting to rules and default PoL material causes a singular problem with 5e allowing people to play in whatever FR they want. If it keeps the Spellplague and 4e changes intact within the timeline of the setting, even if allowing you to play pre-Spellplague, it would seem to still force the inclusion of the slew of cosmology and history retcons it introduced.
I don't think this is true--or if it is, it's overstated. I think the "you have to play your game like this (PoL, etc)!" was just part of the marketing campaign for 4e. There's nothing about the system that forces you to play a certain way.
I have nothing against the PoL concept. I like the Realms as a slightly dark, slightly dangerous place, where most of the land is untamed, and that's what the 4e FR is marketed as. That doesn't mean your Realms are like that, and you should be able to flavor your game the way you want.
The nature of D&D and the FR enable you to play any era, any flavor, whatever you want--my idea is simply to make that more obvious and encouraged.
quote:
Primordials, Abeir, different origins and roles for various outsiders, some of the 1e/2e/3e outsider races didn't exist and never existed despite having roles within FR's history...
Huh, like what for example?
The Abeir one is probably the biggest example, but that's an issue I think with meta-knowledge. Everyone "knows" Abeir didn't exist prior to 4e, because the company line was that it was a word selected to play Abeir-Toril at the front of the alphabet. But then it gets revealed as a twin world. That doesn't contradict canon--it only contradicts our meta-knowledge, i.e., what we thought we knew about the world. Abeir is just one such example, but I'm totally down with such susprises.
I think with a little effort, the seeming contradictions in 4e Realmslore can be reconciled with previous iterations of the Realms.
quote:
That's a problem that would easily be solved by having the 4e Realms as an alternate universe/timeline.
That's what we have NOW, with the clamor to distinguish 3e and 4e as "different" settings. If you want alternate universes, look no farther from what's on the shelf at your local FLGS now. What I'm suggesting is that we make an effort to COMBINE everything into one fluid timeline/setting. And I think we can do it without disappointing people (at least not too much).
The nature of campaign settings is change. It's just a question of HOW MUCH change.
quote:
I personally would prefer to dump all of the PoL stuff retconned into FR (though I'm not absolutely against it retaining a unique cosmology ala 3e versus the 1e/2e usage of the Great Wheel - though I use FR within the Wheel, and went out of my way to include a cleric of Lathander within a 3e Planescape piece in Dragon)
Cosmology is a good question. I wonder if a cosmology could be written that combines all the various worlds and planes from all the different editions. I think it could be done!
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 16:41:10
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I actually prefer having multiple (even incompatible) simultaneous cosmologies in D&D. It's not like the ever-moving infinite planes are supposed to be comprehensible to gods and mortals. Even in RL, each science and each religion perceives a different cosmology which is mutually exclusive to all others, the more enlightened ones admit that we cannot ever accurately define or understand the entire cosmos, and yet the cosmos still exists and we exist within it. To me it would seem almost impossible for, say, the gods and worshippers of the Olympean pantheon to perceive or travel through the "same" planes as those of the Norse pantheon. The River Styx and Yggdrasil both exist, but few entities are capable of navigating both "cosmos" without re-attuning their own beliefs.
Where do natives of the Realms (or any other place) learn the planeslore which shapes "their" cosmos? Maybe they have to accept, on literal faith, whatever their gods teach them. Maybe they have access to dusty old tomes of arcane lore, penned by forgotten authors and passed down through the ages. Maybe they piece together whatever facts they can glean from summoned fiends (who like to deceive and corrupt), from visiting celestials (who are elusive and cryptic), or from planar travellers (who are as much the product of selective ignorance as everyone else). Even the "cosmopolitan" natives of a place like Sigil, no matter how sophisticated their planar lore, are still limited by their own spiritual filters; how can they go to places outside their own belief, comprehension, and imagination? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Jan 2012 16:52:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 18:07:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
I think the biggest issue is the constant need to advance the setting timeline in the first place. This tends to cause way too many dramatic shift in a setting over a short period of time as authors write "bigger" stories. It also forces future canon into the Realms and slowly but surely takes it away from that spectacular setting Ed had originally designed. I would like to note that the first Realms novels (up to the Avatar series) were ALL set prior to the Gray Box. There is no reason that we couldn't reset the timeline back to that great setting (allowing all books published since then to be possible outcomes, but no longer official canon) and then encourage authors to set more stories in the past (and limit RSE's naturally, since we would already know which ones happened). History is much more important to the realism of a setting than advancing a timeline and keeping the setting set at a certain point still allows for writer creativity without worrying about destroying the spirit of the original setting over time.
I disagree. The push to write bigger stories came from above, not from authors just wanting to tell stories... Books like Azure Bonds and Elfshadow show quite nicely that the timeline can advance without blowing up half of the setting each time. Even Salvatore has not, to the best of my knowledge, written an RSE -- he's set stories during existing ones, but I don't know of any that he wrote.
The trend towards "more boom!" came from above, and it's one of the things that damaged the setting. There are many, many Realms novels which don't even mention RSEs.
If the timeline didn't advance, the setting would stagnate, and many people would lose interest. Moving the setting forward does not require blowing it up. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 18:11:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
That's a problem that would easily be solved by having the 4e Realms as an alternate universe/timeline.
That's what we have NOW, with the clamor to distinguish 3e and 4e as "different" settings. If you want alternate universes, look no farther from what's on the shelf at your local FLGS now. What I'm suggesting is that we make an effort to COMBINE everything into one fluid timeline/setting. And I think we can do it without disappointing people (at least not too much).
I would disagree. If someone sticks to canon and plays in 3E, then they know that most of the NPCs they're using now are going to be dead, and that some of the lands they're using are going to disappear.
An alternate timeline, however, would allow those lands to remain past the time of the Spellplague, and it would allow people to either keep using NPCs as long as they want or come up with their own endings.
Yes, people can do that now, but not if they want to try to stick as closely to canon as possible.
The 3E and 4E eras are officially related to each other. The call for an alternate timeline is to have a 3E era that doesn't officially lead into the 4E era -- the best of both worlds. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 19:04:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would disagree. If someone sticks to canon and plays in 3E, then they know that most of the NPCs they're using now are going to be dead, and that some of the lands they're using are going to disappear.
An alternate timeline, however, would allow those lands to remain past the time of the Spellplague, and it would allow people to either keep using NPCs as long as they want or come up with their own endings.
Yes, people can do that now, but not if they want to try to stick as closely to canon as possible.
The 3E and 4E eras are officially related to each other. The call for an alternate timeline is to have a 3E era that doesn't officially lead into the 4E era -- the best of both worlds.
If people make the choice to stick as close to possible with canon, aren't they knowingly accepting that they will have to take what they view as the good with the bad? I know that some people view the Spellplague as the extreme end of "the bad", but they knew what they were getting into when they decided to stick as close to possible with canon. Every change and decision was never going to be to their liking. What about folks that didn't like the Time of Troubles? People that didn't like the return of Shade? People that had problems with aspects of the Grey Box? People that utterly despise the Chosen? People that want some weird setting where the Time of Troubles happened, but Shade didn't return, and the Spellplague still happened, but Thay is now ruled by the Simbul for some odd reason? Do they all get official alternate timelines too? Why do those who dislike the Spellplague get preferencial treatment over everyone else who dislikes something? They can't retcon every decision that someone disagrees with, so why create even more cracks in the fanbase by signaling that you clearly favor one set of fans over the others instead of showing that you favor as many fans as possible by supporting every era?
This is a cut off your nose to spite your face situation. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 19:06:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Erik doesn't want the job (he said so). George would be great, as would Old Sage here (he has his own FR database!), and of course Ed would be PERFECT (but I think Ed is too busy). We need someone who knows nearly as much as Ed (and is able to pick Ed's brain when he wants), and still hasn't got a gazillion projects keeping him from doing his job.
Other suggestions would be Kuje, and Gray Richardson, but I think their areas of interest may be more focused then George's (although I don't now Kuje well-enough to judge that, really). Steven Schend is also an obvious choice - he wrote many of those timelines that made up the GHotR. The task could also be split, with one person specializing in Planer lore (Shemmy?), and another in Faerun history, and another in regions beyond Faerun, etc, etc. Maybe one traffic-cop, and lots of 'go-to' people. This ships been on auto-pilot for far too long.
Well, I didn't necessarily say I *didn't want it*--I can just think of a number of people who'd be better than me, and unless it were an actual paid position, I wouldn't have time to do it and still, y'know, eat.
I have a shortlist of my favorite candidates, which includes Steven Schend and Ed, as well as Brian James, Mr. Grand History himself.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 19:14:04
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@Ayrik: Well, multiple planar cosmologies have been going on since 3e, and as much as you tell gamers "mortals aren't meant to comprehend all this," they (as mortals) still want to comprehend all of it. 
What I'd like to see is an official sourcebook that says "here is the core cosmology, people visualize/understand the universe in as many different ways as there are different worlds." So basically, yeah, multiple cosmologies are fine, with it officially stated that there are supposed to be multiple cosmologies.
Though I'd also like to see the rerelease of Planescape.
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
My only request?
A good map.
...
The Schley maps for the DDi articles are the quality I would like to see.
Decent maps would be top priority.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 19:22:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would disagree. If someone sticks to canon and plays in 3E, then they know that most of the NPCs they're using now are going to be dead, and that some of the lands they're using are going to disappear.
An alternate timeline, however, would allow those lands to remain past the time of the Spellplague, and it would allow people to either keep using NPCs as long as they want or come up with their own endings.
Yes, people can do that now, but not if they want to try to stick as closely to canon as possible.
The 3E and 4E eras are officially related to each other. The call for an alternate timeline is to have a 3E era that doesn't officially lead into the 4E era -- the best of both worlds.
If people make the choice to stick as close to possible with canon, aren't they knowingly accepting that they will have to take what they view as the good with the bad? I know that some people view the Spellplague as the extreme end of "the bad", but they knew what they were getting into when they decided to stick as close to possible with canon. Every change and decision was never going to be to their liking. What about folks that didn't like the Time of Troubles? People that didn't like the return of Shade? People that had problems with aspects of the Grey Box? People that utterly despise the Chosen? People that want some weird setting where the Time of Troubles happened, but Shade didn't return, and the Spellplague still happened, but Thay is now ruled by the Simbul for some odd reason? Do they all get official alternate timelines too? Why do those who dislike the Spellplague get preferencial treatment over everyone else who dislikes something? They can't retcon every decision that someone disagrees with, so why create even more cracks in the fanbase by signaling that you clearly favor one set of fans over the others instead of showing that you favor as many fans as possible by supporting every era?
This is a cut off your nose to spite your face situation.
How is supporting two different groups showing favortism? It could be argued that by not supporting fans who dislike the 4E Realms, they're already showing favortism.
That said, people have a capacity at which they can no longer accept the good with the bad. I'm in that category, myself. I didn't like Shade being the uber-bad guys of the setting in 3E. I didn't like the Silence of Lolth. Heck, I didn't like how things were changed with the advent of 3E but never explained.
But I could have accepted those things and still supported the setting. Hells, I did accept those things and still run out to the store on my lunchbreak for every new supplement.
It's the Spellplague that was too much for me -- and indeed, a quick check of many of the prior discussions within these halls will show the same thing for many other people.
I'm not going to argue about the Spellplague again, or discuss why I personally had issues with it. What I'm saying is that for a lot of us, that's the cutoff point between the Realms we loved and the new version. The Realms of 4E are officially an outgrowth of the Realms of 3E -- but many people do not feel that this is the case.
Obviously, a lot of folks like the 4E Realms. And hey, more power to them. Going back and supporting an alternate timeline, branching off from some time in the past, does not affect those people in the slightest. They are still free to choose, just as those of us who don't care for the 4E Realms are free to choose. I'm just trying to present options to get us all back to supporting the Realms.
I don't think the idea of supporting multiple eras, but leaving them all as one connected setting, accomplishes this idea, because fans of the 3E era know they will either have to go to a point well before the Spellplague or go off on their own at that point.
And I, for one, would prefer to have a supported setting to deviate into, because it's like Ed has said about his decision to sell the Realms to TSR: when it was just him, the Realms couldn't surprise him. He was the person with all the ideas and who knew what was happening...
The number of books and supplements purchased by all of us over the years shows that we all want to have a similar feeling. We all want to crack open a new sourcebook and let new Realmslore delight us. We all want to meet new characters and see new sides of the Realms. We all want to wonder what's over the next horizon, and what tomorrow will bring.
What's wrong with wanting Wizards to support the setting we love? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 19:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I disagree. The push to write bigger stories came from above, not from authors just wanting to tell stories... Books like Azure Bonds and Elfshadow show quite nicely that the timeline can advance without blowing up half of the setting each time. Even Salvatore has not, to the best of my knowledge, written an RSE -- he's set stories during existing ones, but I don't know of any that he wrote.
The trend towards "more boom!" came from above, and it's one of the things that damaged the setting. There are many, many Realms novels which don't even mention RSEs.
If the timeline didn't advance, the setting would stagnate, and many people would lose interest. Moving the setting forward does not require blowing it up.
Did Azure Bonds advance the timeline per se? I mean sure the info was eventually incorporated into canon, but the first book definitely took place in 1357 which was detailed in the Grey Box, yet Azure Bonds didn't appear in that box at all.
I am also not convinced that advancing the GAME timeline officially is necessary. Call of Cthulhu has never advanced the timeline and yet it still has a decent following with the brand recognition of D&D. I would argue again that the game can be set with the Grey Box (and perhaps some of the original supplements) while leaving authors to detail various aspects of both the past. present, and future Realms without needing to update the GAME timeline or issue new supplements and such. Since the Realms likely has many more fans that read the novels than play the game, I doubt this would have much of an impact outside of the fanatics and sadly the fanatics don't exactly drive revenues. |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 19:39:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How is supporting two different groups showing favortism? It could be argued that by not supporting fans who dislike the 4E Realms, they're already showing favortism.
That said, people have a capacity at which they can no longer accept the good with the bad. I'm in that category, myself. I didn't like Shade being the uber-bad guys of the setting in 3E. I didn't like the Silence of Lolth. Heck, I didn't like how things were changed with the advent of 3E but never explained.
But I could have accepted those things and still supported the setting. Hells, I did accept those things and still run out to the store on my lunchbreak for every new supplement.
It's the Spellplague that was too much for me -- and indeed, a quick check of many of the prior discussions within these halls will show the same thing for many other people.
I'm not going to argue about the Spellplague again, or discuss why I personally had issues with it. What I'm saying is that for a lot of us, that's the cutoff point between the Realms we loved and the new version. The Realms of 4E are officially an outgrowth of the Realms of 3E -- but many people do not feel that this is the case.
Obviously, a lot of folks like the 4E Realms. And hey, more power to them. Going back and supporting an alternate timeline, branching off from some time in the past, does not affect those people in the slightest. They are still free to choose, just as those of us who don't care for the 4E Realms are free to choose. I'm just trying to present options to get us all back to supporting the Realms.
I don't think the idea of supporting multiple eras, but leaving them all as one connected setting, accomplishes this idea, because fans of the 3E era know they will either have to go to a point well before the Spellplague or go off on their own at that point.
And I, for one, would prefer to have a supported setting to deviate into, because it's like Ed has said about his decision to sell the Realms to TSR: when it was just him, the Realms couldn't surprise him. He was the person with all the ideas and who knew what was happening...
The number of books and supplements purchased by all of us over the years shows that we all want to have a similar feeling. We all want to crack open a new sourcebook and let new Realmslore delight us. We all want to meet new characters and see new sides of the Realms. We all want to wonder what's over the next horizon, and what tomorrow will bring.
What's wrong with wanting Wizards to support the setting we love?
I agree with a lot of this. For me, I was upset with the Time of Troubles (so soon after the initial release of the setting) and never incorporated that into my game, yet still loyally purchased virtually all supplements until 3rd edition. 3rd just didn't seem like D&D to me (more like a revised up GURPS) and I despised stat blocks that took up a whole page (and all the other crunch that took away from Lore) and so I haven't bought since then (talking about game products here).
I think there are two ways that WoTC can support ALL of the FR fans. One is to support alternate (or at least various timelines), which is why I push back towards the Grey Box, as it is the freshest alternative and provides a lot more between it and the SpellPlague (if you are going to reset a timeline, go all out, not halfway). The other (less ideal) would be to finally get off their rears with pdf's and give everyone access to all the old Realms stuff at a reasonable cost.
**Of course my real preference is a total reset back to the Grey Box accompanied by a re-release of the original trail map. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 20:22:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How is supporting two different groups showing favortism? It could be argued that by not supporting fans who dislike the 4E Realms, they're already showing favortism.
You miss my point. You are elevating those who dislike the Spellplague above all others who have complaints about the setting. By giving them what they, and only they, want WotC is showing very clear favoritism. What makes them more special than people who disliked the Time of Troubles? That's what I mean. You can try to make your latter argument but it won't hold water. By supporting every part of the timeline, you are supporting people who dislike the 4E Realms because you are supporting the parts they do like. Just like you are supporting people who don't want to play past the Time of Troubles, or those who think the Grey Box is the be all end all. There are two choices being presented here. Almost everyone can get some of what they want, or one select group can get everything they want while everyone else gets to see who WotC favors. The latter of those two ideas is needlessly self destructive and I am really surprised more people can't see that.
quote:
That said, people have a capacity at which they can no longer accept the good with the bad. I'm in that category, myself. I didn't like Shade being the uber-bad guys of the setting in 3E. I didn't like the Silence of Lolth. Heck, I didn't like how things were changed with the advent of 3E but never explained.
So what did you do for those ideas? Did you demand that they retcon them too? Did you demand an alternate timeline for each of those events?
quote:
But I could have accepted those things and still supported the setting. Hells, I did accept those things and still run out to the store on my lunchbreak for every new supplement.
It's the Spellplague that was too much for me -- and indeed, a quick check of many of the prior discussions within these halls will show the same thing for many other people.
But are there any real numbers to back that up? Or is this like how it seems that everyone hates the SW prequels, despite them making an astronomical amount of money to the point that people had to watch them more than once. It seems like everyone hates them because anytime anyone so much as begins to say they aren't too bad they are shouted down by an insanely vocal group to the point that everyone else gets the hint. Are you sure that isn't the case here too? Are you sure a majority here represents more than a blip on the radar for the total fan base? Is an extreme gamble worth trying to appease a vocal segment that for all you know have left for good and absolutely nothing will bring them back? And if they do come back, how long until something else pisses them off and they walk away again? Beyond that, how does creating a new problem fix an old problem?
quote:
I'm not going to argue about the Spellplague again, or discuss why I personally had issues with it. What I'm saying is that for a lot of us, that's the cutoff point between the Realms we loved and the new version. The Realms of 4E are officially an outgrowth of the Realms of 3E -- but many people do not feel that this is the case.
And I am sure those same people have a laundry list of other things they dislike and some of those likely have a lot of overlap too. What about those things? Retcons for everybody? Once you start down this path, forever will it dominate your destiny.
quote:
Obviously, a lot of folks like the 4E Realms. And hey, more power to them. Going back and supporting an alternate timeline, branching off from some time in the past, does not affect those people in the slightest. They are still free to choose, just as those of us who don't care for the 4E Realms are free to choose. I'm just trying to present options to get us all back to supporting the Realms.
It will split the fanbase, that's the problem. What happens when the alternate Pre-Spellplague hits the moment of the Spellplague, and the Spellplague doesn't happen? What do you do from that point forward? Split everything into two seperate lines? One set of books where it did happen and one set where it didn't? The same with suppliments? Now you have things going in two different directions. What happens when the next most vocal minority realizes what they can accomplish if they complain loud enougn and long enough and now, suddenly we have a third timeline where the Time of Troubles didn't happen, or Shade never came back, or the Chosen don't exist, or whatever? What happens when they don't get their way and leave? How is this in any way a good idea? This is opening Pandora's Box.
And the real sticking point, which is the alternate and which is the "one, true" setting?
Then let's look at how practical it is from a business standpoint. Let's say they do make a Spellplague and non Spellplague version of everything. That is unlikely, but if there isn't a similar amount of material for both then one or the other will feel slighted and fire up the flame wars again. So, let's assume the releases are similar in number. Now you have increased costs, though it is unlikely you may have doubled them. I say it's unlikely because you probably have people in staff positions working on the projects so you are paying for them no matter what and printing twice as many books (though they are 2 different books) might not double the cost depending on the contract, etc, etc. So, now that you have increased costs by a very noticeable amount, have you increased the consumer base? Not right away. Instead you have split it. Some people will buy both, but I don't see their being a ton of overlap. So, you have taken an already small fanbase and split it's buying power across an increased number of products that follow two seperate paths and that have increased your production costs. Unless you magically split the fanbase right down the middle (in which case you will kill both sides), one side or the other will get the axe. Then you have even more pissed off fans who will leave your customer base and you have to hope and pray that the ones who stay will keep whichever half survived afloat. Yeah, I can see why a company would look at that and say "how do I get me some of that?".
quote:
I don't think the idea of supporting multiple eras, but leaving them all as one connected setting, accomplishes this idea, because fans of the 3E era know they will either have to go to a point well before the Spellplague or go off on their own at that point.
They already have to avoid things they don't like. Why is this suddenly an insurmountable task when it comes to the Spellplague? Don't like it, don't use it. Say Mystra is still alive, the Chosen are still alive and well, the things that got blown up didn't, there aren't any spellscars or flying rocks. Rinse and repeat for anything else you disliked. If you stick with canon, there are going to be things you dislike.
quote:
And I, for one, would prefer to have a supported setting to deviate into, because it's like Ed has said about his decision to sell the Realms to TSR: when it was just him, the Realms couldn't surprise him. He was the person with all the ideas and who knew what was happening...
And when the Spellplague-free Realms needs a sales booster shot and they roll out the next RSE... It will happen as sure as the sun will rise in the East, so what then? What happens when the next thing that you can't stand comes along? Third timeline? I see no reason to believe it couldn't happen again.
quote:
The number of books and supplements purchased by all of us over the years shows that we all want to have a similar feeling. We all want to crack open a new sourcebook and let new Realmslore delight us. We all want to meet new characters and see new sides of the Realms. We all want to wonder what's over the next horizon, and what tomorrow will bring.
What's wrong with wanting Wizards to support the setting we love?
Nothing is wrong with wanting that. It's what I want. If it is one setting with support for all parts, you will get support for the part you love too and almost everyone wins. Or we can split it up and watch canon debates or "My Realms is better than Your Realms" debates rage forever all while any new fans wonder what the hell is going on with multiple timelines. Personally I can do without that. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 20:48:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Let's think about what input we should give them for the Forgotten Realms in 5E. If you had your way, what would you do for the Realms as part of 5E's launch?
I would do something else (explained in your post below).
Sell an adventure that prevents 4E. Allowing those to play off in a spin of universe, which allows Wizards to sell stuff for that spin off Universe. Sell all that spin off stuff in a secure electronic form so Wizards doesn’t have to stock shelves, while not getting ripped off.
I don’t think Wizards can just say sorry you bought all this stuff, and not support 4E.
Edit: Deleted unneeded tangent.
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Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
Edited by - Thrasymachus on 11 Jan 2012 21:29:56 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 22:17:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How is supporting two different groups showing favortism? It could be argued that by not supporting fans who dislike the 4E Realms, they're already showing favortism.
You miss my point. You are elevating those who dislike the Spellplague above all others who have complaints about the setting. By giving them what they, and only they, want WotC is showing very clear favoritism. What makes them more special than people who disliked the Time of Troubles? That's what I mean. You can try to make your latter argument but it won't hold water. By supporting every part of the timeline, you are supporting people who dislike the 4E Realms because you are supporting the parts they do like. Just like you are supporting people who don't want to play past the Time of Troubles, or those who think the Grey Box is the be all end all. There are two choices being presented here. Almost everyone can get some of what they want, or one select group can get everything they want while everyone else gets to see who WotC favors. The latter of those two ideas is needlessly self destructive and I am really surprised more people can't see that.
The thing is, though, that more people have complaints about the Spellplague than anything else. It was with the Spellplague that the community became sharply divided -- so if you want to make the larger number of people happy, that's the point you go back to.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That said, people have a capacity at which they can no longer accept the good with the bad. I'm in that category, myself. I didn't like Shade being the uber-bad guys of the setting in 3E. I didn't like the Silence of Lolth. Heck, I didn't like how things were changed with the advent of 3E but never explained.
So what did you do for those ideas? Did you demand that they retcon them too? Did you demand an alternate timeline for each of those events?
Nope. Because as I said, up until the Spellplague, I could take the good with the bad.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But I could have accepted those things and still supported the setting. Hells, I did accept those things and still run out to the store on my lunchbreak for every new supplement.
It's the Spellplague that was too much for me -- and indeed, a quick check of many of the prior discussions within these halls will show the same thing for many other people.
But are there any real numbers to back that up? Or is this like how it seems that everyone hates the SW prequels, despite them making an astronomical amount of money to the point that people had to watch them more than once. It seems like everyone hates them because anytime anyone so much as begins to say they aren't too bad they are shouted down by an insanely vocal group to the point that everyone else gets the hint. Are you sure that isn't the case here too? Are you sure a majority here represents more than a blip on the radar for the total fan base? Is an extreme gamble worth trying to appease a vocal segment that for all you know have left for good and absolutely nothing will bring them back? And if they do come back, how long until something else pisses them off and they walk away again? Beyond that, how does creating a new problem fix an old problem?
Check out almost any thread in these halls that focuses on the Spellplague. You'll see the numbers I'm talking about.
How does giving the old fans what they want create any problems at all? They did it for 20 years without causing a huge divide in the community...
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not going to argue about the Spellplague again, or discuss why I personally had issues with it. What I'm saying is that for a lot of us, that's the cutoff point between the Realms we loved and the new version. The Realms of 4E are officially an outgrowth of the Realms of 3E -- but many people do not feel that this is the case.
And I am sure those same people have a laundry list of other things they dislike and some of those likely have a lot of overlap too. What about those things? Retcons for everybody? Once you start down this path, forever will it dominate your destiny.
I'm not talking about retcons for everyone or everything. I'm talking about an alternate timeline, splitting from the single most divisive event in the history of the published Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Obviously, a lot of folks like the 4E Realms. And hey, more power to them. Going back and supporting an alternate timeline, branching off from some time in the past, does not affect those people in the slightest. They are still free to choose, just as those of us who don't care for the 4E Realms are free to choose. I'm just trying to present options to get us all back to supporting the Realms.
It will split the fanbase, that's the problem. What happens when the alternate Pre-Spellplague hits the moment of the Spellplague, and the Spellplague doesn't happen? What do you do from that point forward? Split everything into two seperate lines? One set of books where it did happen and one set where it didn't? The same with suppliments? Now you have things going in two different directions. What happens when the next most vocal minority realizes what they can accomplish if they complain loud enougn and long enough and now, suddenly we have a third timeline where the Time of Troubles didn't happen, or Shade never came back, or the Chosen don't exist, or whatever? What happens when they don't get their way and leave? How is this in any way a good idea? This is opening Pandora's Box.
The fanbase is already split. And part of that is because a vocal minority that didn't like the setting and wasn't going to get into it anyway was catered to.
And yes, I suggest two concurrent settings. In the minds of some, that's already what we're looking at. And I am again not saying to cater to everyone -- I'm suggesting trying to heal the major split that already exists. There's two main factions of Realms fans -- either they continue to disregard the fans of the older setting, or they try to win them back.
Again, I don't see how giving the old school fans something to keep them aboard is going to cause issues.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
And the real sticking point, which is the alternate and which is the "one, true" setting?
Dragonlance has alternate timelines, caused by Raistlin and Fistandantilus and Tasslehoff. Which one is the one, true Dragonlance?
Call them two separate settings. Not an issue.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
Then let's look at how practical it is from a business standpoint. Let's say they do make a Spellplague and non Spellplague version of everything. That is unlikely, but if there isn't a similar amount of material for both then one or the other will feel slighted and fire up the flame wars again. So, let's assume the releases are similar in number. Now you have increased costs, though it is unlikely you may have doubled them. I say it's unlikely because you probably have people in staff positions working on the projects so you are paying for them no matter what and printing twice as many books (though they are 2 different books) might not double the cost depending on the contract, etc, etc. So, now that you have increased costs by a very noticeable amount, have you increased the consumer base? Not right away. Instead you have split it. Some people will buy both, but I don't see their being a ton of overlap. So, you have taken an already small fanbase and split it's buying power across an increased number of products that follow two seperate paths and that have increased your production costs. Unless you magically split the fanbase right down the middle (in which case you will kill both sides), one side or the other will get the axe. Then you have even more pissed off fans who will leave your customer base and you have to hope and pray that the ones who stay will keep whichever half survived afloat. Yeah, I can see why a company would look at that and say "how do I get me some of that?".
Again, the fanbase is already split. Why are you so opposed to trying to reconcile the split?
WotC and TSR before them have already supported multiple settings, even if only two or three. I don't see how supporting the Forgotten Realms and a Classic Realms are going to be any different from supoorting the Forgotten Realms and Eberron.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
They already have to avoid things they don't like. Why is this suddenly an insurmountable task when it comes to the Spellplague? Don't like it, don't use it. Say Mystra is still alive, the Chosen are still alive and well, the things that got blown up didn't, there aren't any spellscars or flying rocks. Rinse and repeat for anything else you disliked. If you stick with canon, there are going to be things you dislike.
So if you don't like it, fine, screw you, fix it yourself, we don't care. We've already seen the success of that strategy. Ask Paizo how well that strategy has done for WotC.
Besides, as I already said, the old fans cannot get any new Realmslore if they don't like the Spellplague. That doesn't make any money for WotC, and it drives the fans to other settings, like Golarion.
Again, what is so horrible about trying to give someone what they want?
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
And when the Spellplague-free Realms needs a sales booster shot and they roll out the next RSE... It will happen as sure as the sun will rise in the East, so what then? What happens when the next thing that you can't stand comes along? Third timeline? I see no reason to believe it couldn't happen again.
What part of I've only found one thing to force me to walk away are you not understanding? In 20 years, it was only when the entire setting became unrecognizable that I had to stop buying things. No other RSE accomplished this, not even close.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertThe number of books and supplements purchased by all of us over the years shows that we all want to have a similar feeling. We all want to crack open a new sourcebook and let new Realmslore delight us. We all want to meet new characters and see new sides of the Realms. We all want to wonder what's over the next horizon, and what tomorrow will bring.
What's wrong with wanting Wizards to support the setting we love?
Nothing is wrong with wanting that. It's what I want. If it is one setting with support for all parts, you will get support for the part you love too and almost everyone wins. Or we can split it up and watch canon debates or "My Realms is better than Your Realms" debates rage forever all while any new fans wonder what the hell is going on with multiple timelines. Personally I can do without that.
But how do you support all parts when there is a predetermined and unavoidable future that people want to avoid?
Sure, people may say "My Realms is better than your Realms" -- but we already have that with Eberron, with Dragonlance, and particularly with Greyhawk. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 22:34:23
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I have to say, it's pretty interesting (at least to me)... as of today more than 40% of respondents just want a total reversion to an earlier edition, which would wipe out all of the 4E changes.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 22:34:47
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quote:
originally posted by Tyrant
But are there any real numbers to back that up? Or is this like how it seems that everyone hates the SW prequels, despite them making an astronomical amount of money to the point that people had to watch them more than once. It seems like everyone hates them because anytime anyone so much as begins to say they aren't too bad they are shouted down by an insanely vocal group to the point that everyone else gets the hint.
First of all, the returns from the box office for the prequels prove little. Most Original Trilogy fans (like myself) saw them (only once) for our love of Star Wars and our hope (now dashed) that Lucas could re-create the magic of the first trilogy. And as referenced by the box office receipts, ALL THREE of the originals outperformed the prequels (and by quite a margin)(http://boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm).
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 23:34:19
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quote:
Therise
I have to say, it's pretty interesting (at least to me)... as of today more than 40% of respondents just want a total reversion to an earlier edition, which would wipe out all of the 4E changes.
So ... basically just republish the 3.x product line?
I can understand how many people would want to retrograde to reap the benefits of d20 OGL. But I suspect many of them already own all the D&D 3X stuff they'd want to buy, most probably prefer PRPG or another system.
Is there any breakdown on the remaining 60%? What is your source, Therise?
[Edit]
My bad. Just remembered this scroll had a poll (your Poll, Therise) ... sorry, I tend to routinely ignore them. Repeating what I've recently said elsewhere: I think this poll would produce different results if surveyed outside Candlekeep; we already know quite well what the general D&D edition consensus for the majority of our fellow scribes would be. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Jan 2012 01:22:48 |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 23:42:40
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How about this. I would want designer's open to
discuss divergent timelines with us so that
we can play the Realms our way. NDA keeping us
from learning back story to advance our own stories
are frustrating to the extreme.
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 23:47:32
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If your story is dependent on their story, is it *really* your story?
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
How about this. I would want designer's open to
discuss divergent timelines with us so that
we can play the Realms our way. NDA keeping us
from learning back story to advance our own stories
are frustrating to the extreme.
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Korginard
Learned Scribe
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 00:14:44
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Pretending 4th Ed never happened seems too much like sticking my head in the sand. It happened, novels have been written, information is out there. I agree with Eric that a setting that acknowledges these changes and moves toward healing the dammage is the way to go.
I feel the best thing for the future of the Realms would be to leave statistics and rules and such to the core rulebooks. I want Realms products to paint me a picture of who folk are, where they reside and travel, and what's over the next hill. Focus on the essence of the world and it's people, not the rules. Give me details about life in the realms that don't require consideration of which set of rules we are using. Look at the Volo's Guides as an excellent example. I treasure the kind of information I found in those books. Details of a person are left to the DM. This person is a 12th level Thief. Use whatever you feel like using to determine what that means in terms of stats and rules.
Now of course said books will have new spells, feats, items, ect that are unique to the realms. All I ask is that flavor trumps statistic.
I also like the idea of different time periods, especially for the novels. Not writting about the world before the spellplauge is as silly as ignoring the world after it.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 00:37:21
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quote:
Erik Scott de Bie
@Ayrik: Well, multiple planar cosmologies have been going on since 3e, and as much as you tell gamers "mortals aren't meant to comprehend all this," they (as mortals) still want to comprehend all of it.
Oh. Yes, exactly lol. btw, when are you going to burn up some official stats for Ao? quote:
What I'd like to see is an official sourcebook that says "here is the core cosmology, people visualize/understand the universe in as many different ways as there are different worlds." So basically, yeah, multiple cosmologies are fine, with it officially stated that there are supposed to be multiple cosmologies.
Though I'd also like to see the rerelease of Planescape.
Methinks we are in complete agreement. I hate to admit it, but as much as I enjoy walking the planes I still recognize that they have always been something of an optional extension to the "real" D&D settings; moreover they're a sort of sophistication which doesn't hold the interest of all D&D audiences. But please don't ask me to choose between Realmslore and planeslore if budgets could only allow one and not both. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Jan 2012 00:39:03 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 00:55:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The thing is, though, that more people have complaints about the Spellplague than anything else. It was with the Spellplague that the community became sharply divided -- so if you want to make the larger number of people happy, that's the point you go back to.
No, that satisfies the loudest complainers, assuming that is in fact true which has yet to be proven. That does not satisfy the most people unless the people who dislike the Spellplague outnumber those who don't mind it, which has also not been demonstrated to be true. You are still only satisfying one complaint while ignoring all others and potentially chasing off your current customers. You need to look past personal bais and consider that you might be in a minority. You also need to consider that there is the very real possibility that those people who left won't come back no matter what you do. So, is it worth killing your current business to please people who's greatest wish is to watch your business burn to the ground?
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Nope. Because as I said, up until the Spellplague, I could take the good with the bad.
I assume you see the critical point in your argument? You could handle it up to that point. Again, what about everyone else with an axe to grind?
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Check out almost any thread in these halls that focuses on the Spellplague. You'll see the numbers I'm talking about.
As much as I like this place, if this is the sum total of Realms fans or anything beyond a drop in the bucket then the Realms needs someone who can raise the dead to help it.
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How does giving the old fans what they want create any problems at all? They did it for 20 years without causing a huge divide in the community...
Because you (why you assume you speak for all the old fans or even an appreciable number of them is beyond me) want something that will be dividing and destructive. You dislike what WotC did with the Spellplague. Will they really earn your trust by the act of telling their current fans where they can stick their 4E material? Is anyone really that gullible or do you hate the 4E Realms so much that anything that sends them down in flames will win you back despite there being proof positive that they will stab you in the back the moment someone else can complain louder than you can?
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I'm not talking about retcons for everyone or everything. I'm talking about an alternate timeline, splitting from the single most divisive event in the history of the published Realms.
In what world does that not lead to everyone with an axe to grind demanding their version getting the same treatment? Once you show that WotC will bend if you complain loud enough... well if you can't see the outcome of that then this is a pointless discussion.
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The fanbase is already split. And part of that is because a vocal minority that didn't like the setting and wasn't going to get into it anyway was catered to.
So to fix this your plan is to split it along another line and cater to a group that won't be getting back into it at the cost of the people currently paying the bills?
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And yes, I suggest two concurrent settings. In the minds of some, that's already what we're looking at. And I am again not saying to cater to everyone -- I'm suggesting trying to heal the major split that already exists. There's two main factions of Realms fans -- either they continue to disregard the fans of the older setting, or they try to win them back.
I don't know what to tell people who think there are two settings because there aren't. There is one setting and it's up to them to accept reality or not. They can choose to ignore parts, but that doesn't make it magically cease to be much as they wish it did. Supporting two settings is inviting disaster. You think people are pissed now about 4E? Wait until one of the two universes doesn't pull it's own weight and gets the axe. Be prepared for a whole new definition of pissed because the losing side will absolutely hate the other. If 3E wins you will forever be known as whining children who helped kill another setting to satisfy supremely self centered desires. And if 4E wins...
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Again, I don't see how giving the old school fans something to keep them aboard is going to cause issues.
If they're still aboard they must be okay with 4E or are devoted enough to buy anything with the Realms label. Otherwise they aren't buying anything and aren't really "on board", are they? From there you have to seriously ask, will that actually bring them back? I think it's a foolish assumption personally as I usually don't give companies a second chance at screwing me, especially if they're opening gesture is to screw someone else to win me back.
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Dragonlance has alternate timelines, caused by Raistlin and Fistandantilus and Tasslehoff. Which one is the one, true Dragonlance?
Call them two separate settings. Not an issue.
Nice try. FR A and FR B? The names will be very similar and it will become clear which has preferrence. Now, care to really answer the question?
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Again, the fanbase is already split. Why are you so opposed to trying to reconcile the split?
I'm not opposed to it. For whatever reason you choose to attribute to it, you refuse to see how much of a headache multiple time lines will become. I am not going to guess as to the cause of this, but you need to look at pretty well every other attempt and see how they worked out. On the other hand, I can point to a shining, functional example of what I am talking about. It even has an RPG.
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WotC and TSR before them have already supported multiple settings, even if only two or three. I don't see how supporting the Forgotten Realms and a Classic Realms are going to be any different from supoorting the Forgotten Realms and Eberron.
The problem is that you don't see. FR and Eberron appeal to two different crowds. Likewise with Dragonlance, Dark Sun, etc. Yes, there is some overlap, but overall the different worlds have a different feel. This already fragments the D&D fanbase into different camps, which is already a problem for sales. Now, you are suggesting taking one of those camps and breaking it into smaller pieces. The two FR will not be so different as to draw in different minded crowds but fans will pick sides within the camp. You're talking about having Empire Strikes Back compete against Special Edition Empire Strikes Back, not SW vs Gone With the Wind.
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So if you don't like it, fine, screw you, fix it yourself, we don't care. We've already seen the success of that strategy. Ask Paizo how well that strategy has done for WotC.
Your alternative is "here, we'll hold your hand and print books just for you too". Tell me how that is a better business decision. Tell me how supporting every part of the timeline is saying "screw you". Is the word "every" just not getting through? How can you be more inclusive? Giving in to insane demands is generally a bad move. You never know what demands need to be met next week to keep them in the fold.
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Besides, as I already said, the old fans cannot get any new Realmslore if they don't like the Spellplague. That doesn't make any money for WotC, and it drives the fans to other settings, like Golarion.
Really? Every last second from the dawn of creation up until the Spellplague has been covered in the most minute level of detail? I'm sorry but I am calling complete BS on that. If you think there is nothing left pre Spellplague there's no point in me continuing this.
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Again, what is so horrible about trying to give someone what they want?
In and of itself the idea is nice. However, reality tells us to think before you act. Sure, you can give them what they want. But what if what they want is destructive to your goals? What if they want is insane? What if the only reason you are considering giving in to them is because they have made it their life's purpose to complain about your past actions? What if the people you are trying to placate would watch you burn rather than putting out the fire with a smile on their face? You need to consider who, how, and why you are giving people what they want before you blindly give in because if you give in to the wrong group for the wrong reasons, where does it end?
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What part of I've only found one thing to force me to walk away are you not understanding? In 20 years, it was only when the entire setting became unrecognizable that I had to stop buying things. No other RSE accomplished this, not even close.
What part of, what guarantee do you have they won't do something equally dumb in the future are you not getting? You have zero control over the future actions of WotC. They have let you down before. What rational argument can you present that says they absolutely will not do so again? And yet again, you don't represent anyone beyond yourself. What about everyone with a lower tolerance for these types of events? Do they not count or do only the Spellplague haters deserve to have their feelings tended to?
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But how do you support all parts when there is a predetermined and unavoidable future that people want to avoid?
The same way anyone else who is presently succeeding in doing so does... Is that really a question? I am going to die some day and I consider that a predetermined and unaviodable future that I would rather avoid (though I am unsure which way the majority opinion goes on this matter). I, and most of the rest of the human race, seem to manage somehow. How do you tell SW: Old Republic fans that they can't blow up certain planets because they still exist 5000 years later? Or that The Empire will lose at Endor? How do you tell Battletech fans that nothing will stop the Clan Invasion? Or the Jihad? How do other Realms fans cope with the Time of Troubles even if they hate it with the fury of a thousand suns? These people seem to manage just fine. I happen to think most Realms fans don't need someone to hold their hand and can manage just fine too. You got by just fine through all that other stuff you didn't like. How did you manage? This isn't rocket science. I'll help in any way that I can if anyone is really stuck on something.
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Sure, people may say "My Realms is better than your Realms" -- but we already have that with Eberron, with Dragonlance, and particularly with Greyhawk.
"May"? Really? After all the crap about 4E you think it "might" devolve into that? Wow. Again, this is something I look at and the thought of "how do I get me some of that" never crosses my mind and I have no idea why anyone else wants in on it. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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WotC is asking for input, so...
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