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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 08:44:06
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Well Tyr is dead. That leaves an opening in the Triad that Torm proceeded to fill in terms of leadership and Bahamut filled in terms of bodies.
So, I'm curious, what kind of changes has Torm undergone in your mind? Is he the same Luke Skywalker-esque deity he was or significantly harsher?
What sort of humans worship Bahamut, since being part of the Second Triad means he's probably much more widely worshiped.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8031 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 10:03:53
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| I've never thought Torm was all that great, although he is a most popular choice among Realms fans. Helmdall is a much more interesting fellow. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 11:13:06
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Torm always struck me as the "Kid Brother" of the Triad with Tyr as the Wise Old Leader and Ilmater as the Odd Man Out for people who wanted to follow the Road Less Traveled.
I figured Ilmater was the guy that players took when they wanted to emphasize their paladins as healers and good guys.
Tyr was the guy for wisdom and so on. The followers of Tyr were the guys who ruled cities, administrated provinces, were concerned about making sure you had the proper justice codes, and so on.
Torm, on the other hand, was all about hot-blooded smacking down bad guys and adventuring for GLORIOUS JUSTICE.
Helm, of course, had a lot of fans in my adventuring group. Guarding is a very simple but effective ethos and it helped that it removed all morality from the equation. Duty, no matter what.
My New Torm is based on Patrick Magoohan of all people. Basically, he's very bitter about the whole Tyr/Helm thing and runs a very tight ship - his earnestness now devoted to being the God of Honor and personal integrity.
Since my players played Old realms, New Torm was quite a shock from him.
Sadly, I don't have a role for Bahamut yet. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 27 Dec 2011 12:35:24 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8031 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 13:04:02
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| You hit that nail right on the head with the holy hammer. Torm is a smiter. I've seen enough smiters on battlenet to know that the majority of them are just hotheaded violent bastards who are typically not especially bright and care little about Lawful Good alignment unless it helps them kill things. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8031 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 13:06:41
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| Btw, ick ... who would wanna worship Luke Skywalker? He's got a really nice sword but is otherwise unworthy even of contempt. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 13:40:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
You hit that nail right on the head with the holy hammer. Torm is a smiter. I've seen enough smiters on battlenet to know that the majority of them are just hotheaded violent bastards who are typically not especially bright and care little about Lawful Good alignment unless it helps them kill things.
Hilariously, I'm currently parodying that. In my Post-Spellplague campaign, the Knights of Samular disliked the idea of serving Torm SO much that they sought a new god and ended up getting subverted to the point of becoming unknowing servants of Bane.
(They can't be bad! They're wearing white!)
But yes, Torm is one of the best god for adventurers. When you want to be the guy who runs up and slashes things FOR GLORIOUS JUSTICE you serve Torm.
quote:
Btw, ick ... who would wanna worship Luke Skywalker? He's got a really nice sword but is otherwise unworthy even of contempt.
Eh, I like Luke. He's the best example I could think of for brash young heroes. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4487 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 14:12:42
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I feel the transition forced Torm to "Grow Up" in a sence of his duities and responsibilities. As a patron deity of Duty (ie. Duty's Bond [his greatsword]) I think he fullfilled the role of Justice bringer and smiter of the Triad where Bahamut filled the role of the "true knight", the embodiment of Honor and Valor.
Torm, feeling the need to re-civilize parts of war/spellplague-torn Faerūn, would probably be urging his followers to spread as much justice and law in the land as possible. A cleansing attempt to push back the fold of darkness slowly spreading from Netheril, Thay, the Sea of Fallen Stars. This might lead him to be a bit more forceful in dealings and outlook.
I also see those who worship Bahamut to be a bit more compassionate, espically in terms of dealing with problems. Where Torm's patrons might rule with the Law and the Sword, Bahamut's patrons might attempt use rehabilitation and compassion over direct rulings. For example, the guy who steals to feed his family might receive a very strict punishment in the form of imprisonment (according to the law) from a Tormite magistrate where as that same individual might get community service and rehabilitation to become a better member of the town/society under a magistrate dedicated to Bahamut.
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 05:44:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Btw, ick ... who would wanna worship Luke Skywalker? He's got a really nice sword but is otherwise unworthy even of contempt.
Because of what he did in the post-movie novels?
I only vaguely know something about him (maybe?) going a little into the dark side. But I can't say that I really even know if that's true for sure. What'd Luke do that's so bad?
I've never really been all that fond of Torm. Never had a player with a character who worshipped Torm, and I never went lawful good with any of my characters either.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 29 Dec 2011 05:46:41 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 06:36:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I only vaguely know something about him (maybe?) going a little into the dark side. But I can't say that I really even know if that's true for sure. What'd Luke do that's so bad?
It's not necessarily what he did that was so bad... just that he proved to be almost as susceptible to the lure of the Dark Side, much like his father.
It's played out fully in the Dark Empire and Dark Empire II graphic novels from Dark Horse Publishing. Essentially, a clone of the Emperor seeks to make Luke his apprentice, and tempts the hero Skywalker into -- for a time -- serving the Dark Lord of the Sith. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8031 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 01:39:06
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| Actually, I was thinking more in terms of George Lucas Skywalker's vastly annoying stupid-whiny-kid behaviour, although he did "mature" somewhat during the course of the first trilogy. From what I understand, he was said to have gone on to achieve some real coolness afterwards ... but I still don't like him. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 09:57:07
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| I had assumed Amaunatar replaced Tyr until now. Bahamut seems like a strange third member of "the triad" to me. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 16:02:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I only vaguely know something about him (maybe?) going a little into the dark side. But I can't say that I really even know if that's true for sure. What'd Luke do that's so bad?
It's not necessarily what he did that was so bad... just that he proved to be almost as susceptible to the lure of the Dark Side, much like his father.
It's played out fully in the Dark Empire and Dark Empire II graphic novels from Dark Horse Publishing. Essentially, a clone of the Emperor seeks to make Luke his apprentice, and tempts the hero Skywalker into -- for a time -- serving the Dark Lord of the Sith.
I'm reading those books for the first time, right now. I discovered a hardcover collection of all three Dark Empire stories (I only knew of two of them), and just got it earlier in the week.
I have the action figures of the Reborn Emperor and the Dark Empire Luke and Leia. Now I finally have the story behind them! 
(And I still prefer the original figures of Thrawn and Mace Windu to any later versions) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 17:28:54
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In my games, I decided that Bahamut is the God of Civilization. He's basically the "Wise Old Sage" and counselor to Torm who is the "King" of the Triad and the person whose law effectively governs everything. I go to Dragonlance's Draco Paladine for the saintly old codger sort of feel towards the guy.
Amaunator I continue to treat as identical to Lathander, he's just a bit more serious and dedicated to smacking down people who offend him. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8031 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 17:31:06
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| I like that idea. So long as Bahamut doesn't maintain a Fizban avatar in the Realms. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 20:11:21
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Fizban is sort of redundant when you have Elminster for wizardly comic relief.
Though Skyrim has given me an excellent idea for how Bahamut might act with the dragon Paarthurnux.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2012 : 00:16:56
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| I don't think Amaunatar should be good :S I think if they had kept Lawful or Lawful Neutral he would have been Lawful. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2012 : 01:13:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I only vaguely know something about him (maybe?) going a little into the dark side. But I can't say that I really even know if that's true for sure. What'd Luke do that's so bad?
It's not necessarily what he did that was so bad... just that he proved to be almost as susceptible to the lure of the Dark Side, much like his father.
It's played out fully in the Dark Empire and Dark Empire II graphic novels from Dark Horse Publishing. Essentially, a clone of the Emperor seeks to make Luke his apprentice, and tempts the hero Skywalker into -- for a time -- serving the Dark Lord of the Sith.
I'm reading those books for the first time, right now. I discovered a hardcover collection of all three Dark Empire stories (I only knew of two of them), and just got it earlier in the week.
They're worthwhile takes on the early "future" of the franchise after Return of the Jedi. I'd also recommend the graphic novels from Dark Horse, too, if you can find them. They offer some tidbits that weren't included in the novels -- especially Dark Empire. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2012 : 01:14:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Fizban is sort of redundant when you have Elminster for wizardly comic relief.
Fizban was his own kind of quirky, though, and not so much comedic. So it sort of works.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2012 : 02:34:54
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I don't think Amaunatar should be good :S I think if they had kept Lawful or Lawful Neutral he would have been Lawful.
Well it helps that Lawful Neutral no longer exists. 
I question why he would have any connection to Lathander at all then, given Lathander is THE *BIG GOOD* of the Realms along with Mystra and Tyr/Torm. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 08 Jan 2012 02:37:20 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 09:14:53
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Why are you rolling your eyes at me when I stated that "if they had kept Lawful Neutral"? That seems really unnecessarily rude... I obviously know that they changed the alignment system. The 4th edition alignment changes don't make any sense other than to make the game less intimidating to new players so I don't see a reason to adhere to them when I understand the original alignment system...
My understanding is that Lathander was the dawn deity who has become the day deity (Amaunatar) who will become eventually become a dusk deity. Then the cycle will repeat. But I assume you know that, and won't roll my eyes a you ;) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 15:01:17
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Why are you rolling your eyes at me when I stated that "if they had kept Lawful Neutral"? That seems really unnecessarily rude... I obviously know that they changed the alignment system. The 4th edition alignment changes don't make any sense other than to make the game less intimidating to new players so I don't see a reason to adhere to them when I understand the original alignment system...
My understanding is that Lathander was the dawn deity who has become the day deity (Amaunatar) who will become eventually become a dusk deity. Then the cycle will repeat. But I assume you know that, and won't roll my eyes a you ;)
I'm assuming he's rolling his eyes at the fact that Lawful Neutral no longer exists in 4E, not at you. The simplification of the alignment system was not a universally approved-of change. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 15:55:25
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Why are you rolling your eyes at me when I stated that "if they had kept Lawful Neutral"? That seems really unnecessarily rude...
I was rolling my eyes at their removal of Lawful Neutral, not you. My apologies. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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The Second Triad
