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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 12:40:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
In FR I always wondered what happenned with the god of that plane, I mean, if you resurrect someone who was already dead, wouldn't the god of that plane be "pissed"? I can't imagine Lolth being happy in front of one of her souils being taken away, though I don't think Lolth would allow resurrections between her bethren and clerics...
Pharaun was supposed to be living a “happy” life in Lloth's domain when Alizssa resurrected him. That's like stealing from Lloth's treasures. She shouldn't have allowed it. But, well, she's always been fickle-minded, a given for someone who revels in chaos. So maybe there's no surprise there. The only thing I'm not happy with that resurrection is that Pharaun died again... Talk about double kill. Literally. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 20:03:10
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IMHO, it's not a big problem, though of course should be used with a thought. Plot-wise or in-universe, resurrection is far from guaranteed for several different reasons, and sometimes it's actively prevented - so it's not a deus ex machina.
In novels "oops, X died, waiting for resurrection" or "...and burn the body" hapen, and usually nothing falls apart. In sourcebooks, e.g. Ravenian knights have a deal about resurrection - again, it makes sense, but doesn't turn everything upside down either.
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Something about creating more chaos amongst nobility than the actual murder IIRC.
It's one side, yes. See here - Girl Genius links, for example. But that's an extreme case.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Pharaun was supposed to be living a "happy" life in Lloth's domain when Alizssa resurrected him. That's like stealing from Lloth's treasures. She shouldn't have allowed it. But, well, she's always been fickle-minded, a given for someone who revels in chaos.
No, no. Zoom out a little.
Elaine Cunningham made (repeatedly) a good point, but it should be seen in context.
On the one eyestalk - yes, petitioners do feel where they belong, "even the puniest manes wants to be in Abyss, it just wants to be something more powerful", as they say. And now boom, "leave the sandbox, mom calls to dinner". 
On the other eyestalk - one returns to life, and then what they think will happen? Running into a demilich or soul-devouring Astral worm, however scary it may be, is too improbable to be taken into account at all. Conversion or intelligent undeath are more likely, but still very rare.
So... how long they and their gods would expect this leave to continue? Compared to eternity, is it really a big deal? Or is it more "oh, Prime's calling - bye, boys, save me a chair, maybe will return with some more pals"?
On the third eyestalk - after raising, the ex-petitioners most likely will go on with their lives, i.e. do what they think needs to be done and act in the interests of their deity.
Calling petitioners back usually is less like stealing gems from a dragon's hoard and more like cupping some water which will promptly leak between the grasping fingers back into the ocean. Except they aren't even really "taken" - while alive, they still give faith.
Thus on the Outer Plane end it may be a significant event, but much less so than on Prime. Normally neither petitioner in question nor the patron deity got a good reason to see it in terms other than usual, be it "duty calls", "natural order of things", "that can be fun, but do this looks like more fun at the moment?" and so on. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 26 Dec 2011 20:16:42 |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 21:48:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
In FR I always wondered what happenned with the god of that plane, I mean, if you resurrect someone who was already dead, wouldn't the god of that plane be "pissed"? I can't imagine Lolth being happy in front of one of her souils being taken away, though I don't think Lolth would allow resurrections between her bethren and clerics...
Pharaun was supposed to be living a “happy” life in Lloth's domain when Alizssa resurrected him. That's like stealing from Lloth's treasures. She shouldn't have allowed it. But, well, she's always been fickle-minded, a given for someone who revels in chaos. So maybe there's no surprise there. The only thing I'm not happy with that resurrection is that Pharaun died again... Talk about double kill. Literally.
Lolth isn't that stupid, perhaps she knew about his future second death and wanted him to suffer again. Though I don't know how He "re-dies", I wouldn't discard that if it is in a painful way.. |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 06:05:14
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That suggests comparisons between RL and fantasy "afterlife" states, CP. A dangerous topic I dare not touch within the warded halls of Candlekeep.
I think most resurrectees are reasonably satisfied with their renewal on life. If not, they can simply arrange to promptly die again. Obviously the divinity who granted the resurrection, as well as the priestly proxy who channelled it, are also satisfied because otherwise they wouldn't have expended the effort. So I surmise that those souls who would refuse resurrection are the ones who simply "could not be brought back" on a failed resurrection survival roll. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 08:28:00
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I'm just saying that there's precedent for treating the subject different from Pet Cemetery.
Still, you're right.
Is it just me or is Raise Dead/Resurrection seemingly DESIGNED for adventurers? It seems like the people most likely to come would be those who would be most likely to die in battle but want to get back up to do it again. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 10:01:26
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I suppose the spells originated from deities wishing to reward their most worthy servants, or at least keep them around a bit longer to keep an edge over the competition. Like so many other priestly magics, it was then only a matter of time before mages devised the best arcane versions they could manage.
Many kingdoms and churches were founded by successful adventurers. A deity with little power would do well in choosing "exceptional" individuals to champion the faith, or perhaps such deities accept the service of many believers but only the most durable and lucky ones (adventurers) manage to survive worldly hardships enough to reach the highest levels of divine spellcasting. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 13:57:03
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| Imo Lolth or Shar priests having access to resurrection is ridiculous, should be restricted to sun religions or similar |
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Valmon
Acolyte
Brazil
11 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 14:13:44
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In the case of Bruenor... I dont think its nice for a cleric to bother a dead king in the halls of moradin...
I dont think Moradin would agree... and maybe he wouldnt even provide the spell...
Ressurect a king like bruenor... should have a very special reason... afterall.. hes in peace in the halls of moradin (in his case, in peace in "wherever Mielikki enchanted forest" hehehe)...
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 14:35:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Imo Lolth or Shar priests having access to resurrection is ridiculous, should be restricted to sun religions or similar
Not necessarily. Fickle-mindedness aside, both goddesses are just as practical as the other good aligned deities. If they see that their dead subjects could serve them better alive, then they would gladly resurrect them. For whatever greater cause. The results (the resurrected's services) most often outweigh the cost (the deities' power that's spent for the resurrection, among all others). |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 14:55:09
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Deities (acting through the DM) always have the final say on which spells are granted to a priest. The priest might submit a list of spells while chatting up his god, and in 3E onwards he can reasonably expect all these standardized PHB powers are granted as expected unless he's somehow been "bad" ... but in old AD&D games the priest was usually surprised (and a little unhappy) with the spells he received and the exotic conditions or components needed to use them.
Resurrection is less of a routine option, more of an unusual and even desperate one, when it involves some kind of price. A real price, which costs dearly, not just a little pile of gold or XP or trinkets dumped at the priest's feet. It shouldn't be given lightly, it's not just a reset button on the side of the Nintendo you hit every time you screw up. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 17:59:18
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| Well, as mentioned, I do like the Iron Kingdoms approach, though I'd not use them in the Realms. I would, however, have deities require "favors" of people being resurrected, especially if the resurrectee is not of their faith. This might be minor, like a lot of cash, it may be something larger, like spending some time serving at a temple, or it may be something major like recoving some relic of the faith, taking down some powerful opponent of the faith, or assisting with the construction of a new temple. It would depend on the relationship between the character's deity and the deity of the resurrecting priest, and might even involve a geas or quest spell. |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 22:00:17
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A thought occurs to me though I'm not sure it is exactly along the line of discussion; it is related tangentially at least.
In The Dark Elf Trilogy, Matron Malice asked for one of the greatest gifts Lolth could bestow; Zin-Carla. The granting of that gift came with a heavy price on Matron Malice. Might this be some sort of Drow version of Raise Dead/Resurrection?
I think it's a canon example (dispute the writings of various authors as canonical or not elsewhere please) of exactly what the discussion was getting at with it being for very specific uses and taking a heavy toll on both the caster and the recipient.
Technically Zak was still dead though, hence it's really an interesting tangent to the discussion and might serve as an example to help answer the question Quale semi-posed about those particular deities having access to the magic.
Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Maybe it takes a different form depending upon the deity granting it. Maybe it comes with the price of a favor for the deity. Maybe it winds up changing some fundamental aspect of the character (DM's excuse for an alignment shift perhaps?). Maybe it opens a gateway from the Fugue or whatever plane the soul currently resides upon into a body and something sees it as a chance to come to the materiel plane and wreak some havoc.
All a bunch of great possibilities for DM story-making for PnP games.
Good Hunting! |
"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb
"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 23:18:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Imo Lolth or Shar priests having access to resurrection is ridiculous, should be restricted to sun religions or similar
Like healing magic, I don't think that bad guys don't benefit from it as much as anyone else. In the case of Shar, I could see a bunch of priests worshiping her to forestall their own oblivion and resurrection is just a function of that. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 14:58:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Imo Lolth or Shar priests having access to resurrection is ridiculous, should be restricted to sun religions or similar
Like healing magic, I don't think that bad guys don't benefit from it as much as anyone else. In the case of Shar, I could see a bunch of priests worshiping her to forestall their own oblivion and resurrection is just a function of that.
Well when you think about it, goodly people like Seiveril Miritar wife Illyela often refuse to come back as they are more than content in the realm of their patron God and those who worship evil gods rarely have loyal enough followers to enable a succesful resurrection so perhaps thats why we only see a few people getting resurrected. |
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Marquant Volker
Learned Scribe
Greece
273 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 19:16:59
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| i never understood the idea that the priest will frown and mumble something about an unhappy God , and the Queen will agree to bury her son/daughter instead of ressurecting him/her |
Edited by - Marquant Volker on 28 Dec 2011 19:17:49 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 19:46:57
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The Obarskyr line in Cormyr was never resurrected if I remember that talk with Vangey and Alusair; it was some divine lineage issue.
Mourngrym's wife Shaerl (at the time pregnant girlfriend?) is about the only prominent character I remember being resurrected as if she was a PC and this happened outside of a novel.
I think the novels are pretty good about having major powerful characters who would have access to resurrection magic not die traditional deaths that would allow them to be easily brought back to life. The less powerful characters who die in novels from swords/etc usually die far away from powerful priests or just wouldn't have coinage enough to pay for that level of service.
I think the only time I felt cheated by a resurrect spell being used in a novel was the end of Crown of Fire when Manshoon decided to raise Fzoul after Shandril blew him apart.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 20:42:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
The Obarskyr line in Cormyr was never resurrected if I remember that talk with Vangey and Alusair; it was some divine lineage issue.
Mourngrym's wife Shaerl (at the time pregnant girlfriend?) is about the only prominent character I remember being resurrected as if she was a PC and this happened outside of a novel.
I think the novels are pretty good about having major powerful characters who would have access to resurrection magic not die traditional deaths that would allow them to be easily brought back to life. The less powerful characters who die in novels from swords/etc usually die far away from powerful priests or just wouldn't have coinage enough to pay for that level of service.
I think the only time I felt cheated by a resurrect spell being used in a novel was the end of Crown of Fire when Manshoon decided to raise Fzoul after Shandril blew him apart.
I believe Duke Eltan, of the Flaming Fist, has been resurrected. And there is, of course, Nain Keenwhistler, of the Company of Crazed Venturers, who holds a record for the number of times he's been resurrected.*
*Which begs the question: who wants to keep adventuring with someone who keeps dying? |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 23:58:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
*Which begs the question: who wants to keep adventuring with someone who keeps dying?
Anyone, if it means he's eating all the arrows  |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 01:31:36
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| I wonder if there's any "bloodlines" which are resistant to resurrection? It seems like an interesting idea, though I would hesitate to give bonuses for selecting such a character trait: PCs would simply generate an endless string of perma-dead characters, just to gain a few extra points. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 01:42:10
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Such resistance, if there's any, must be due to some curse that even their patron god (whoever he is) cannot lift, perhaps because the curse is partly the work of another (arguably) more powerful deity. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 01:54:57
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A curse of eternal rest?
Again, it's an interesting concept but probably not really practical for anything ... outside of a novel perhaps. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 02:13:34
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A curse of eternal non-meddling. A servant of a lesser god being very instrumental in foiling the schemes of a greater deity... The latter would ensure the said servant never sees the dawn of day ever again, and the faithful's patron would be powerless against it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 03:33:43
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| Isn't everyone with a low constitution resistant to resurrection, or did they do away with that in the later editions? |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 04:57:30
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| There ya go! If you use a point-buy stat generation system then "resurrection resistance" can indeed provide some extra points to spend on something else. Although combined with the other penalties from low Con (ie: you're wimpy and take less effort to kill) this might not be especially viable logic. |
[/Ayrik] |
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glitter
Acolyte
France
45 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 09:38:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Well, I can see a priest of Tempus, having died gloriously in battle, NOT wanting to be back to life at all cost. Isn't it the "goal" of the War god's followers to go out in such a way?
Good point, after all, what is the goal of a character once he is dead ? Isn't it to stay in the realm of his/her god ?
We can assume that most dead people would refuse the resurrection.
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- You’re a looney. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 11:20:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
In The Dark Elf Trilogy, Matron Malice asked for one of the greatest gifts Lolth could bestow; Zin-Carla. The granting of that gift came with a heavy price on Matron Malice. Might this be some sort of Drow version of Raise Dead/Resurrection?
The spell was described somewhere, IIRC.
Why it's so great... the subject retains all the skills and acquires undead immunities (poison and telepathy are major and widespread threats in Underdark), and won't try anything "funny", like living drow tend to do.
Meld is much the same, but without undead qualities and trickier - without constant concentration, but when not observed it's a question of how far the subject can be trusted, and he's a living drow already. 
quote:
Originally posted by glitter
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Well, I can see a priest of Tempus, having died gloriously in battle, NOT wanting to be back to life at all cost. Isn't it the "goal" of the War god's followers to go out in such a way?
Good point, after all, what is the goal of a character once he is dead ? Isn't it to stay in the realm of his/her god ?
That varies. Petitioners may want to join the plane, brawl and feast or whatever forever, serve the deity, have ambitions, want to eventually becoming a proxy... Outer Planes aren't dull and uniform, after all.
Anyway, the petitioner's patron may think there's "something great to be done/finished", etc - but yeah, usually it will simply fall under "not really necessary" shrug for the other side. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 13:13:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
My view of resurrection is that it actually should be used more often in books, but it shouldn't be used very commonly. I take the view that spellcasting priests capable of casting "Raise Dead" are not RARE but they're important. They're not going to raise the dead of someone not of their faith unless they have a pressing reason to. They'll do it for adventurers but only those who are directly aiding their kind.
I generally treat "Raise Dead" as a form of battlefield first aid anyway.
Yeah, I look at it as the party cleric will raise his comrades. Outside of that, the church is going to want more than just lip service and some coin. If its a church of Gond, then maybe some time spent trying to help the working community and improve their living conditions. If its a church of Milil, then perhaps they expect the renting out of an auditorium, hiring a writer to make a play/opera (which may have moral views that the church of Milil wants to present), and then presenting this play to the masses for next to nothing. The church of Ilmater may require the person to work amongst the diseased. For some churches, the aid will mostly likely be more "hands on". For instance, if its the church of Lathander, then maybe they'll request the aid of adventurers to wipe out some undead. The church of Miellikki may want someone to hunt down some Malarite poachers. Then there will be the churches who will send the person to acquire some long lost item. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 13:23:22
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
IMHO, it's not a big problem, though of course should be used with a thought. Plot-wise or in-universe, resurrection is far from guaranteed for several different reasons, and sometimes it's actively prevented - so it's not a deus ex machina.
In novels "oops, X died, waiting for resurrection" or "...and burn the body" hapen, and usually nothing falls apart. In sourcebooks, e.g. Ravenian knights have a deal about resurrection - again, it makes sense, but doesn't turn everything upside down either.
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Something about creating more chaos amongst nobility than the actual murder IIRC.
It's one side, yes. See here - Girl Genius links, for example. But that's an extreme case.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Pharaun was supposed to be living a "happy" life in Lloth's domain when Alizssa resurrected him. That's like stealing from Lloth's treasures. She shouldn't have allowed it. But, well, she's always been fickle-minded, a given for someone who revels in chaos.
No, no. Zoom out a little.
Elaine Cunningham made (repeatedly) a good point, but it should be seen in context.
On the one eyestalk - yes, petitioners do feel where they belong, "even the puniest manes wants to be in Abyss, it just wants to be something more powerful", as they say. And now boom, "leave the sandbox, mom calls to dinner".
On the other eyestalk - one returns to life, and then what they think will happen? Running into a demilich or soul-devouring Astral worm, however scary it may be, is too improbable to be taken into account at all. Conversion or intelligent undeath are more likely, but still very rare.
So... how long they and their gods would expect this leave to continue? Compared to eternity, is it really a big deal? Or is it more "oh, Prime's calling - bye, boys, save me a chair, maybe will return with some more pals"?
On the third eyestalk - after raising, the ex-petitioners most likely will go on with their lives, i.e. do what they think needs to be done and act in the interests of their deity.
Calling petitioners back usually is less like stealing gems from a dragon's hoard and more like cupping some water which will promptly leak between the grasping fingers back into the ocean. Except they aren't even really "taken" - while alive, they still give faith.
Thus on the Outer Plane end it may be a significant event, but much less so than on Prime. Normally neither petitioner in question nor the patron deity got a good reason to see it in terms other than usual, be it "duty calls", "natural order of things", "that can be fun, but do this looks like more fun at the moment?" and so on.
Assuming of course that they don't switch faiths once returned to life. After all, some evil person is resurrected... he might recall some of the afterlife somehow (usually they don't)... so he turns to a life of good. He dies and now some good deity tries to collect on his soul as well as the previous evil deity. It goes before Kelemvor and he makes a decision (maybe he sticks the fellow in the wall). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 13:34:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Marquant Volker
i never understood the idea that the priest will frown and mumble something about an unhappy God , and the Queen will agree to bury her son/daughter instead of ressurecting him/her
In the case of royalty, think of it like this. The King dies.. the son gets to move up. The King is resurrected... the son wants to keep the throne. The kingdom is divided. Much death in the kingdom as a result of bringing one person back. Therefore, kings and other royal personages once officially dead.... well, it might in the best interests of the kingdom and accepted tradition that they stay dead (and therefore, the king refuse to come back). Now, that's not saying that if the heir is a pathologically insane person (and the king only realized it when he was slain by said heir), that if he were given the chance to return to the living for the chance to help his kingdom... he might do it.... he might also still refuse to return and instead request of his god to send a hero to right the wrongs and let his ghost appear to said hero to make said request. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Resurrection in novels
