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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 16:02:30
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What do you think about the use of resurrection in novels?
In my opinion it usually just gets ignored besides some rare occasions where a god intervend or some very rare ritual made it work.
Also I know why its handled this way and that it would destroy many good stories I'm allways wondering why don't they just raise him when someone important dies.
Resurrection or Raise Dead are common spells for clerices and every major city in the realms should have at least dozens of clerics capable of casting it. So whenever at least an important person dies there should be no problem to bring him back. The only ecpetions would be when he doesn't want to come back or his murderer made special preparations the prevent him from beeing raised.
The latest example which brought me thinking about this again was reading the Shandril books where her mate died and Storm tells her that there is a rare chance to bring him back with her spellfire. But even without it Storm should have known that they just have to go to some friend whos a high level cleric and let him solve it.
So what do you think?
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 16:23:09
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I'd like it to be used very rarely, as it should be. What's the point of dying if you can be resurrected anytime anywhere?
I'd rather see a character die then transform into something else (lich, shade, whatever forms of undead) than see him return to life practically as his usual self. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 16:26:10
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In an RPG its great (and kinda necessary), but in a novel I think it detracts from the story.
After all, without risk of permanent death, you really don't worry much about the characters - you lose that connection to them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 16:39:47
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| Yes I agree, but just ignoring it although it should be possible allways feels odd to me |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 16:40:42
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| I remember Vangy explaining to a young princess Alusair why resurrection would not be considered if the event of her father's murder. Something about creating more chaos amongst nobility than the actual murder IIRC. It happened in the last book of Ed's Knights trilogy I think. |
Edited by - Kilvan on 21 Dec 2011 16:47:08 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 16:46:07
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| Evil organizations will most likely avoid resurrection in the case of an officer killed, simply because it allows younger blood to ascend in said organization. They'll be less menacing for older members, and younger members are only too glad for the possibility of easy promotion. I remember Manshoon causing a lot of surprise when he commanded the resurrection of Fzoul in Crown of Fire (even worse because Fzoul openly betrayed Manshoon shortly before). It wasn't good news for the priests of Bane, even though Fzoul was their most important member. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 07:59:39
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I think the practice of resurrecting the dead should be kept at a minimum (in other words, very rarely), regardless of alignment. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 08:42:52
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Yes but why? Besides not making a good story for the reader.
What motivation would for example the dwarfes of Mithril Hall have not to just hire a high enough cleric to resurrect Bruenor?
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 08:57:37
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Yes but why? Besides not making a good story for the reader.
What motivation would for example the dwarfes of Mithril Hall have not to just hire a high enough cleric to resurrect Bruenor?
Possible answers:
1. The characters may cease to give enough value to their lives, or live it carelessly, knowing they have multiple lives.
2. Stuck-up hierarchy. No one gets to step down nor step up. Everyone is stuck up to their respective roles.
3. As MT noted, the readers would most likely lose connection with the characters.
4. Tends to lean towards redundancy. For example, character X wants to climb Mount Z. On his way, from point A to D, he dies. He gets resurrected and tries to climb again. Then we again see his trek from A to D. Upon reaching point J, he dies the second time. So again we're shown how he tries to again climb from point A to J....and so on and so forth... |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 22 Dec 2011 09:55:05 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 13:45:55
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| Death of major characters usually mark important part of the novel, both for the reader and the surviving characters. Resurrection would take that away. I just read one in the excelent Downshadow, and the possibility of resurrection would have ruined much of the plot. I think the best way to handle this kind of situation would be to always come up with a reason to discard the possibility of raise dead, like having an elf involved (since resurrection = sacrilege). But then, that would get redundant, so I'm fine with the current way it is handled. |
Edited by - Kilvan on 22 Dec 2011 14:02:10 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 13:46:48
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| I prefere a "Dead is Dead" approach. The possibility Resurrection and Raise Dead tend to eliminate the sense of true danger. I actually tried the "Dead is Dead" thing with a Skyrim character, turned out to be a lot of fun and certainly forces you to be more careful. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 14:10:46
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Alusair: Oh no my father the king died. Hurry and get the priest to raise him.
Vangi: No wait. I feel this is a speacial moment for all of us and raising him would destroy it. So just let us nake you the new Queen.
Alusair: Hmm ok good point.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 14:21:37
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I think if Resurrection/Raise Dead is going to be used, it should be very climatic and have a HUGE purpose within the majority of the story. I think I've read it happening in Realms novels possibly 3 times total (twice in the same book, BTW) and once to bring back an elven warrior to help rebuild an elven city. The first two were in a novel so......game-based, I really just shook my head when it was performed. The second had a strong significance and really showed the reader that the final decision is based on the person being raised.
When one really looks at it from a Realms perspective, if you die and are in the embrace of your deity, why would you want to leave? To go back to all the earthly doings of mortals? To see suffering, death, murder, evil, and pain? When you really look at it from the POV of the deceased, your asking them to leave paradise to go back to the ho-hum of boring life. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 14:41:04
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| Yes good point. Maybe knowing that there really is an afterlife gives you a diffrent perspective about this. When you know you will see all you loved ones again after they die. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 15:02:38
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| Well, I can see a priest of Tempus, having died gloriously in battle, NOT wanting to be back to life at all cost. Isn't it the "goal" of the War god's followers to go out in such a way? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 17:28:20
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There was an excellent article in Dragon, I believe, but I couldn't possibly tell you what issue at this point.
It discusses ALL the problems resurrection entails - there are a LOT of legal ones (after all, someone already inherited all their property, and titles). The dead don't own anything, plain and simple - even if they 'come back' (and their kin could demand whatever they are carrying, as well, including arms and armor... its a nightmare).
This is why, if you bring back a noble, or worse, royalty, it is a VERY bad idea - it could easily cause a civil war. One such scenario was even discussed in the 3rd party tome SECRETS (an excellent source, even though its hit-or-miss). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Dec 2011 17:29:08 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 19:57:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There was an excellent article in Dragon, I believe, but I couldn't possibly tell you what issue at this point.
It discusses ALL the problems resurrection entails - there are a LOT of legal ones (after all, someone already inherited all their property, and titles). The dead don't own anything, plain and simple - even if they 'come back' (and their kin could demand whatever they are carrying, as well, including arms and armor... its a nightmare).
LOL, not to mention the other party members that were already eyeing up their flaming sword |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 07:48:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Well, I can see a priest of Tempus, having died gloriously in battle, NOT wanting to be back to life at all cost.
So are the Sharrans. Losing one's life is the ultimate manifestation of loss. Resurrection contradicts that very premise. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 09:18:36
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| I think any follower whose death services their god would feel that way; whether it be selfless dedication to a greater purpose or selfish assumption of the promised afterlife. Death in battle to serve Tempus, death in darkness to serve Shar, death to return to the natural cycles of Silvanus or Kelemvor, death through drowning, cold, fire, magic, storms, whatever. You can be sure that priests of Lathander will contrive to die at the peak of sunrise, priests of Milil after the completion of their greatest performance, priests of Sharess and Sune through their most extraordinary exertions. Priests think death is important. It's a bit of a wonder that they even have resurrection magics at all. Surely these powers are granted by their gods to serve some greater purpose than to just keep the church coffers filled? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Dec 2011 09:19:46 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 10:03:49
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For the deities, some servants are too indispensable. Thus, the resurrection. However, any forms of reuse get tiresome eventually. Hence, the rarity of such boon. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 14:25:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Well, I can see a priest of Tempus, having died gloriously in battle, NOT wanting to be back to life at all cost.
So are the Sharrans. Losing one's life is the ultimate manifestation of loss. Resurrection contradicts that very premise.
Yeah, but tell that to Rivalen and a few of his brothers after the Archwizards trilogy. |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 17:47:45
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Ed has talked about why nobles are usually not resurrected in responses to posters over the years, if you check the So Saith Ed files. Not to mention the point someone brought up, if you are no in paradise, why would you want to leave.
It's just a tv show, but if you watched Buffy, when she died and was brought back against her will that she was in heaven and happy and now it feels like hell here because she wants to go back to heaven. Kinda the same thing I would imagine. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 19:17:05
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| I like the way the Iron Kingdoms handle it. Yeah, it's possible to be resurrected... But it's rather unlikely that you'll come back as you were. Or that you'll come back alone. It's also possible that something else will come back instead of you, and/or that the priest attempting the resurrection is going to suffer some misfortune as well. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 00:01:49
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My view of resurrection is that it actually should be used more often in books, but it shouldn't be used very commonly. I take the view that spellcasting priests capable of casting "Raise Dead" are not RARE but they're important. They're not going to raise the dead of someone not of their faith unless they have a pressing reason to. They'll do it for adventurers but only those who are directly aiding their kind.
I generally treat "Raise Dead" as a form of battlefield first aid anyway. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 00:38:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I like the way the Iron Kingdoms handle it. Yeah, it's possible to be resurrected... But it's rather unlikely that you'll come back as you were. Or that you'll come back alone. It's also possible that something else will come back instead of you, and/or that the priest attempting the resurrection is going to suffer some misfortune as well.
I like this conception as well. And that fact that most of the setting's gods actually frown on resurrections, which likely attributes to many of the complications encountered during the process of resurrecting someone in the Iron Kingdoms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 01:39:12
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| An important part of the resurrection game mechanic is that success is not guaranteed. There is always a chance of failure. For D&D players this is determined randomly. For FR authors this is determined by requirements of the plot and narrative. An example is Jak Fleet; his failed resurrection motivated Erevis Cale far more than a successful resurrection might have - an annoyingly moral fat little halfling Harper would only impede Erevis and slow him down, a dead one imparted an impetus of pathos, guilt, and vengeance which motivated Erevis on an unrelenting path towards redemption and forgiveness. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 06:05:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Well, I can see a priest of Tempus, having died gloriously in battle, NOT wanting to be back to life at all cost.
So are the Sharrans. Losing one's life is the ultimate manifestation of loss. Resurrection contradicts that very premise.
Yeah, but tell that to Rivalen and a few of his brothers after the Archwizards trilogy.
Rivalen would gladly die for Shar. Though his brothers probably won't, most specially Brennus. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 06:46:51
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quote:
The Sagequote:
Wooly Rupert
I like the way the Iron Kingdoms handle it. Yeah, it's possible to be resurrected... But it's rather unlikely that you'll come back as you were. Or that you'll come back alone. It's also possible that something else will come back instead of you, and/or that the priest attempting the resurrection is going to suffer some misfortune as well.
I like this conception as well. And that fact that most of the setting's gods actually frown on resurrections, which likely attributes to many of the complications encountered during the process of resurrecting someone in the Iron Kingdoms.
Interesting ideas. I simply make resurrection very costly - enough that my players are very apprehensive about whether a particular dead character or other is worth bringing back. This has the desired effect of making death something they try very hard to avoid.
Incidentally, my PCs play "hardcore". They'll usually adopt a handy secondary character for the remainder of the play session to continue participating and minimize disruption, sometimes they really like hanging on to the henchman or apprentice or NPC (or monster!) they've been given and that becomes their new character, at least for a while. Otherwise, all new characters are level one, no twinks, no "inheritence", no exceptions. The PCs are now very good at preparing and executing their tactics in ways which work to keep the lower level sorts in their midst (PCs and NPCs alike) alive and useful.
We've discussed alternatives for resurrection (and reincarnation) before - it cheapens the game as easily as it cheapens a novel - but still we accept it "as is" because suddenly changing important rules after years of play is too inconsistent.
I rather like an alternative approach suggested in (2E) Legends & Lore under the entry for Arawn, Celtic god of death and the underworld: he collects the souls of worthy heroes, he will sometimes prevent resurrection attempts and offer to replace the fallen hero he'd like to keep with a "similar" one taken from his endless legions of the dead. Well, actually, Arawn doesn't interfere with the resurrection process itself; he just expresses his disapproval of unauthorized resurrection by collecting the "dead" character in person. Offering Arawn heroic prizes or service can sometimes spare a doomed soul. For a time. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Dec 2011 06:49:37 |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 09:01:49
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| Also like Iron Kingdoms way of resurrection it is a way of balance the system, I mean why everything should be an advantage, there should be also dangers attached to the resurrection. In FR I always wondered what happenned with the god of that plane, I mean, if you resurrect someone who was already dead, wouldn't the god of that plane be "pissed"? I can't imagine Lolth being happy in front of one of her souils being taken away, though I don't think Lolth would allow resurrections between her bethren and clerics... |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
Edited by - Thelonius on 24 Dec 2011 09:02:45 |
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MalariaMoon
Learned Scribe
324 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 10:59:09
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I concur with Ayrik. I like my games to mirror the resurrection lite nature of the written Realms. I greatly limit the availability of such magic to my PCs. I make Raise Dead highly debilitating for both the caster and returning character and only useable for a few hours after the character’s demise. Resurrection is never a service that can be casually purchased at a temple. Some great service for the temple is required before resurrection will be considered. Furthermore, only the most powerful priests can cast it and as other posters have mentioned, sometimes patron gods are unwilling to return souls to the prime material plane.
In some cases, I’ve ruled that local priests are unable to cast Raise Dead and Resurrection magic, but that they can roughly divine the cosmological location of a departed soul and open a temporary gate to the relevant plane. Thus bringing back a character becomes an adventure in itself (something like venturing into Hades to rescue a loved one, as one of the Greek heroes did in myth).
These steps make death a significant occurrence in the campaign, and players really way up whether bringing a character back from the dead is really worth it.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 12:28:19
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In my games, I run it like this.
1. The only clerics in the world capable of casting Resurrection are usually the patriarchs of the faith. The heads of the churches in a country are usually capable of doing it.
2. It's almost as easy to just pretty much go to an archwizard and ask for a Wish - which is to say, not at all.
3. Raise Dead is okay so long as it's within 3 days, which is when (in my realms) most bodies are buried. It's why bodies are kept in temples since their souls might be able to return (A Jergal-Era tradition). Resurrection is almost NEVER cast save in an emergency of Biblical proportions.
(the last time it happened in my games was when Cormyr's priests got together and raised Alusiar from the Dead because, bluntly, Cormyr needed their Warrior-Goddess - screw the rules)
4. As a bit of flavor text, instead of souls getting to decide whether they can come back or not, Kelemvor decides it.
5. Kelemvor priests are the only priests who would REMOTELY think of asking for Raise Dead as a regular spell. Which fits their role in my games as Kelevor as a healing god. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 24 Dec 2011 12:28:59 |
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Resurrection in novels
