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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 07:42:42
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Has Ao personally destroyed a god? If not, would he? Under what circumstances? Would his unknown “Master” allow him to?
He seemed to have come close to obliterating Cyric.
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 16 Dec 2011 09:50:42
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Light
Learned Scribe
Australia
233 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 14:02:48
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| For no reason other than to try to get this topic up off the ground...nay, the gutter...where it currently resides, I will start off by saying that: Why dear Dennis I am unsure as to the answer of your question, as I am of many things, but I will be so bold as to say "No, Ao has not personally destroyed a god". That said he did maim Tyr for him questioning whether the Time of Troubles was necessary. Taking that into consideration I would not be surprised if his anger got the better of him at one point (a foolish new godling questioned him twice!) and he did destroy a god but as far as I know he hasn't so I'm sticking with my answer of "no". The way I see it Ao is the grumpy grandfather who will not hesitate to cane his children and, god help them, grandchildren should they disrespect him. |
"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga) |
Edited by - Light on 16 Dec 2011 14:05:37 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 16:43:02
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| He probably has. Likely so completely that the very idea of said deity was wiped from all of history. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 16:54:12
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That's an intriguing theory, CoA. What do you think his reason was? Other than the very generic "he must be very annoyed." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 17:43:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That's an intriguing theory, CoA. What do you think his reason was? Other than the very generic "he must be very annoyed."
I would think that if Ao did this, it would be for something like what happened on Krynn, in the alternate timeline that Caramon and Tas saw. If a single deity became so powerful that he was destroying other deities *and* was a serious threat to Ao's balance, then I can see Ao destroying that deity. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 17:56:44
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| It might not have been for something they did so much as something they were going to do. I've always thought of Ao as not perceiving time the way the rest of us, even the rest of the gods, do. For him, the future's already happened, we just haven't gotten there yet. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 18:21:42
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Another intriguing postulation. That's probably why he didn't wipe out Cyric from the face of the multiverse---because he'd known that the mad god would never rise above the rest. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 23:46:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That's an intriguing theory, CoA. What do you think his reason was? Other than the very generic "he must be very annoyed."
I would think that if Ao did this, it would be for something like what happened on Krynn, in the alternate timeline that Caramon and Tas saw. If a single deity became so powerful that he was destroying other deities *and* was a serious threat to Ao's balance, then I can see Ao destroying that deity.
Agreed.
And I would assume this attitude has only become more entrenched since the Time of Troubles, given Ao's more inclined hand toward how the various deities interact with Realmspace.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 00:28:28
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Has Ao also destroyed deities from other pantheon, like the Mulhorandi? Maybe it explains the seemingly inexplicable disappearance of some of them? Or mayhap he's simply barred them from Realmspace? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 01:21:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Has Ao also destroyed deities from other pantheon, like the Mulhorandi? Maybe it explains the seemingly inexplicable disappearance of some of them? Or mayhap he's simply barred them from Realmspace?
The activities and conduct of Ao have both largely been left undefined... to underline the "unknown" aspect of his/her/it's presence in the Realms-sphere.
So it's entirely possible, I suppose. And given the fact that both the gods and primordials had contested for ages, as the 4e FRCG tells us, maybe Ao had to employ more "aggressive" methods to reign in the ambitions of some deities -- to prevent greater damage to Realmspace should their "weapons of godly-destruction" be deployed against the primordials. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 01:51:39
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| Ao works in mysterious ways. For starters, he put Cyric in charge of some serious divine firepower. Let's not even discuss this entire Abeir-Toril mess that's attributed to him. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 01:55:09
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Has Ao also destroyed deities from other pantheon, like the Mulhorandi? Maybe it explains the seemingly inexplicable disappearance of some of them? Or mayhap he's simply barred them from Realmspace?
The activities and conduct of Ao have both largely been left undefined... to underline the "unknown" aspect of his/her/it's presence in the Realms-sphere.
So it's entirely possible, I suppose. And given the fact that both the gods and primordials had contested for ages, as the 4e FRCG tells us, maybe Ao had to employ more "aggressive" methods to reign in the ambitions of some deities -- to prevent greater damage to Realmspace should their "weapons of godly-destruction" be deployed against the primordials.
This actually supports my thinking that the greatest/biggest/most damaging wars of all are those not recorded in history.
I have another question, and I'd like to hear your sagacious theory. (Which makes me consider changing this thread's title to All things Ao.) Yes, it has been established that Ao is supposed to be treated the Greatest Unknown. But, if you were to conjecture, what do you think is his weakness? Or does he even have one? With very little information known about him, perhaps this is quite difficult to answer, but one I daresay not impossible. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 02:51:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Yes, it has been established that Ao is supposed to be treated the Greatest Unknown. But, if you were to conjecture, what do you think is his weakness? Or does he even have one? With very little information known about him, perhaps this is quite difficult to answer, but one I daresay not impossible.
Interesting questions.
If we were to consider just the more recent information on Ao [as per the 4e FRCG], we're told that "his might is unimaginable ... " and that "He serves no one ... "
Assigning weakness to such an entity should be difficult, but, I suppose, not impossible. And I think we've seen something of a hint of weakness on Ao's part. His inattentiveness. If nothing else, his prior inclination to, perhaps, disregard the petty squabbles and rivalries between the Realms deities for so long, nearly brought an end to his grand creation.
Granted, he "corrected" the problem before that end occurred. But imagine if he had simply left the deities of the Realms to run all of creation into a miasma of impossible conflict without end? What would that have meant for Ao and his relationship with the cosmos? Could the trapped/exiled primordials have sought their revenge as a result of this perceived inattentiveness on Ao's part? Would he have been able to stop them if they had... with all of his creation deteriorating around him?
And who is to say what may have occurred during the "contested ages" between the gods and the primordials? Perhaps there was a "super-primordial"-type that nearly rivalled Ao in power and pure reality-shaping majesty.
From the designer perspective -- and I'm going by Rich Baker's earlier 2007/2008 replies about slowly "writing" Ao out of the Realms cosmology -- I'd say Ao's greatest weakness would be whatever the designers [*devilish snicker*] decide. Or, at the very least, whatever the DM decides for their own Realms.
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Edited by - The Sage on 17 Dec 2011 02:53:04 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 03:18:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Yes, it has been established that Ao is supposed to be treated the Greatest Unknown. But, if you were to conjecture, what do you think is his weakness? Or does he even have one? With very little information known about him, perhaps this is quite difficult to answer, but one I daresay not impossible.
Interesting questions.
If we were to consider just the more recent information on Ao [as per the 4e FRCG], we're told that "his might is unimaginable ... " and that "He serves no one ... "
Assigning weakness to such an entity should be difficult, but, I suppose, not impossible. And I think we've seen something of a hint of weakness on Ao's part. His inattentiveness. If nothing else, his prior inclination to, perhaps, disregard the petty squabbles and rivalries between the Realms deities for so long, nearly brought an end to his grand creation.
Granted, he "corrected" the problem before that end occurred. But imagine if he had simply left the deities of the Realms to run all of creation into a miasma of impossible conflict without end? What would that have meant for Ao and his relationship with the cosmos? Could the trapped/exiled primordials have sought their revenge as a result of this perceived inattentiveness on Ao's part? Would he have been able to stop them if they had... with all of his creation deteriorating around him?
And who is to say what may have occurred during the "contested ages" between the gods and the primordials? Perhaps there was a "super-primordial"-type that nearly rivalled Ao in power and pure reality-shaping majesty.
From the designer perspective -- and I'm going by Rich Baker's earlier 2007/2008 replies about slowly "writing" Ao out of the Realms cosmology -- I'd say Ao's greatest weakness would be whatever the designers [*devilish snicker*] decide. Or, at the very least, whatever the DM decides for their own Realms.
I kinda expected the last part.
On inattentiveness: I'm unsure of it. I'm more inclined to agree with CoA that Ao perceives time quite differently from other gods. The past, present, and future might be all the same to Ao, or may look like the dimensions of a 3D picture that he can perceive clearly at the same moment.
On superprimordial: Likely. Though what's stopping him from striking Ao and ultimately replacing him is yet another question. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 03:22:39
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| Ao is described as omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. Yet in the end he did not prevent the Avatar Crisis nor the Spellplague ... which suggests that either he is omni-lacking in one or more ways, or that he is an uncaring and incompetent overgod. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 03:37:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
On inattentiveness: I'm unsure of it. I'm more inclined to agree with CoA that Ao perceives time quite differently from other gods. The past, present, and future might be all the same to Ao, ...
Traditionally, we've been told that Ao exists outside the Realms time/space contiuum for the most part. So that's a given.
quote:
... or may look like the dimensions of a 3D picture that he can perceive clearly at the same moment.
Ao exists in an eleven-dimensional superstring cosmology.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 03:40:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Ao is described as omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. Yet in the end he did not prevent the Avatar Crisis nor the Spellplague ... which suggests that either he is omni-lacking in one or more ways, or that he is an uncaring and incompetent overgod.
Or both could be part of his grand design. I once postulated that by proxy he started the Spellplague for two reasons. First, to regulate Mystra's ever-increasing power. Second, to rid Toril of some unwanted cobwebs. Another explanation: he hard-wired Mystra to automatically reboot once in a while, thus preventing her to grow more in power and possibly challenge him. And the Spellplague is simply an effect of such pre-programmed reboot. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 03:45:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
... or may look like the dimensions of a 3D picture that he can perceive clearly at the same moment.
Ao exists in an eleven-dimensional superstring cosmology.
Oh, well, if Szass Tam was able to perceive reality in nine dimensions, I guess it's safe to assume a being a thousandfold more powerful than he is can perceive it in a hundred, a thousand, or a million dimensions. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 04:58:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Ao is described as omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. Yet in the end he did not prevent the Avatar Crisis nor the Spellplague ... which suggests that either he is omni-lacking in one or more ways, or that he is an uncaring and incompetent overgod.
Or that he's like a good parent, who realizes that sometimes you have to let your kids get hurt or fail, so that they'll learn from the experience. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Dec 2011 04:58:24 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 05:15:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Ao is described as omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. Yet in the end he did not prevent the Avatar Crisis nor the Spellplague ... which suggests that either he is omni-lacking in one or more ways, or that he is an uncaring and incompetent overgod.
Which is largely what I meant by Ao's "inattentiveness," earlier.
To some divinely-inclined or primordial-types, especially those looking to establish an agenda for themselves in Realmspace, Ao's inattentiveness could be perceived [and subsequently exploited] as a weakness. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 05:38:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Ao is described as omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. Yet in the end he did not prevent the Avatar Crisis nor the Spellplague ... which suggests that either he is omni-lacking in one or more ways, or that he is an uncaring and incompetent overgod.
Or that he's like a good parent, who realizes that sometimes you have to let your kids get hurt or fail, so that they'll learn from the experience.
As a "parent," has he spank them for misbehavior?
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It's difficult to tag world/Realmspace-shaking catastrophes as Ao's incompetence because in the first place, no one knows what exactly are Ao's agenda. For all we know, all the gods could simply be the aspects of his personality, reflected by his super-consciousness, and formed and reformed by the faithful's prayers. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 06:18:37
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As a "parent" Ao punished the entire pantheon (for the actions of a few) to emphasize the grave severity of his extreme displeasure. He didn't just spank them, he also grounded them, took away their allowances, forbid them the use of the family car, denied them access to books and television and cellphones and video games, he even rather arbitrarily lashed out and abused one. To make things worse, the subsequent actions of these deities (including the new arrivals) indicated that they didn't learn a damned thing from the experience. Not great parenting in my view.
Claiming these events were part of his "grand design" set into motion when he created Mystra and the others seems unlikely to me - was correcting these imbalances at the behest of his superiors part of this design? Although I do admit it isn't impossible that Ao's design/implementation of Mystra might be flawed or have runtime bugs which have forced some downtime and reinstalls, I imagine him looking at some Mystra-Blue Screen of Death while swearing at some unexpected and meaningless error/fault code. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Dec 2011 06:24:41 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 06:29:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Claiming these events were part of his "grand design" set into motion when he created Mystra and the others seems unlikely to me - was correcting these imbalances at the behest of his superiors part of this design?
Probably. To create a thing, sometimes one has to destroy something. Similarly, to maintain balance, or the Greater Balance, Ao needs to induce a relatively containable doses of imbalance. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 07:02:02
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| I suppose my greatest issue with this argument is that I understand Ao, from the descriptions I've read, to be a transcendant entity, one who is generally occupied somewhere outside/beyond the normal setting. The "grand design" argument presupposes that Ao is instead an entity which permeates his cosmos, presence in every particle and manifested in every event. It seems incompatible because, to me, such a permeating entity has but a single power in his portfolio: that of creation ... and once he's expended that power there's no requirement (or possibility) of him intervening to nudge things along past trouble spots. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 12:27:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I suppose my greatest issue with this argument is that I understand Ao, from the descriptions I've read, to be a transcendant entity, one who is generally occupied somewhere outside/beyond the normal setting. The "grand design" argument presupposes that Ao is instead an entity which permeates his cosmos, presence in every particle and manifested in every event. It seems incompatible because, to me, such a permeating entity has but a single power in his portfolio: that of creation ... and once he's expended that power there's no requirement (or possibility) of him intervening to nudge things along past trouble spots.
I personally don't see that he permeates the cosmos... And I also wouldn't say his sole portfolio is creation. I'd say his sole portfolio is divinity itself, and like most deities in the Realms, things outside the scope of his portfolio aren't worth his attention. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 13:03:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I suppose my greatest issue with this argument is that I understand Ao, from the descriptions I've read, to be a transcendant entity, one who is generally occupied somewhere outside/beyond the normal setting. The "grand design" argument presupposes that Ao is instead an entity which permeates his cosmos, presence in every particle and manifested in every event. It seems incompatible because, to me, such a permeating entity has but a single power in his portfolio: that of creation ... and once he's expended that power there's no requirement (or possibility) of him intervening to nudge things along past trouble spots.
I personally don't see that he permeates the cosmos... And I also wouldn't say his sole portfolio is creation. I'd say his sole portfolio is divinity itself, and like most deities in the Realms, things outside the scope of his portfolio aren't worth his attention.
To be honest, I've always assumed Ao transcends the strict confines of a portfolio. He is the creator god, after all. Assigning a portfolio to a creator god essentially limits the extent of that creativity -- regardless of how you define the portfolio.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 18:07:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Ao is described as omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. Yet in the end he did not prevent the Avatar Crisis nor the Spellplague ... which suggests that either he is omni-lacking in one or more ways, or that he is an uncaring and incompetent overgod.
I don't think him being uncaring implies him being incompetent. On an above-cosmic scale, those events could have been relatively minor in comparison to the things Ao prevents on a daily basis that we just don't know about. Alternatively they're all part of his or his master's grand plan. Or maybe he just thinks watching Mystra die repeatedly is entertaining. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2011 : 07:37:08
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Agreed, save for the last sentence.
And that could be an answer to my question about Ao's weakness. The number of things he can attend to at the same time might be limited. If the gods of whatever pantheon create multiple disruptions that are more than he can handle, then... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2011 : 08:19:28
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It might be more subtle than that. Ao constructed a world with rules. Every time Ao appears, the rules are broken (if they haven't been already). Ao himself is above all rules ... which means the consequences of his interventions might also be above the rules, the more he gets involved the more damage he causes to his own creation. Perhaps it is also a matter of magnitude; Ao is basically a bulldozer and so not well-suited to digging a small garden as a shovel (god) or of the same fine measurements as a teaspoon (mortal). There could be a limit to how much interference can be tolerated before his creation is utterly ruined.
Perhaps Ao and his powers are enigmatic even to the gods, so they study and analyze every datum they can possibly observe during Ao's rare appearances, and each time Ao is around or does something there is some risk that he inadvertently reveals knowledge about him that the gods should not have. How often can he act before one or more gods learns one of his higher powers (or weaknesses), thus being able to manipule the world and other gods (and perhaps Ao himself) in ways which would destroy the balance?
Perhaps the cosmic balance he strives for is more than an abstract ideal: it might be critically necessary to sustain existence. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Dec 2011 08:28:17 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2011 : 08:46:41
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If it's an abstract ideal, Ao would have long ago perished. Ao is Balance. The absence of one means the non-existence of the other. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2011 : 09:16:33
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I disagree. We had balance before Ao, we have appear to have balance after.
And to be honest, regardless of the motivations and purpose ascribed to Ao (during the the Time of Troubles, at least), specific actions on his part seemed sometimes impulsive and rarely moderated by any sort of balance. If anything, he seemed to repeatedly demonstrate that he was in charge and the cosmos is not a democracy ... one way or another, everyone who dared to directly slight or challenged Ao's power was immediately smote down into obedient silence. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Topic |
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Has Ao personally destroyed a god?
