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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Dec 2011 : 09:41:42
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There was nothing before Ao. I wouldn't call that balance.
Democracy is a non-issue. Everyone, including the gods, are free. But what they have is not absolute freedom, for giving them such would be quite counterproductive to what Ao stands for: balance. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 02:34:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Agreed, save for the last sentence.
And that could be an answer to my question about Ao's weakness. The number of things he can attend to at the same time might be limited. If the gods of whatever pantheon create multiple disruptions that are more than he can handle, then...
While the sentence was intended as a jest, I don't think it should be fully discounted. The simplest solution is often the correct one, and no one's beyond a little schadenfreude. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 03:19:01
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Perspective.
Ao is NOT uncaring....
But what HE cares about is far beyond our feeble sense to comprehend, and at the same time, what we care about is so far beneath his notice that it is not so much uncaring, as an inability to even percieve things so trivial.
For instance, our bodies are composed of millions of cells, but what cells worry about doesn't normally concern us... unless it is something like cancer, which will eventually catch our attention when it becomes something we can no longer ignore. By the same token, we are normally beneath Ao's notice, unless a mortal does something that upsets the balance. Ergo, 'uncaring' is an unfair description - he has greater concerns then us - thats why we have gods to handle our concerns.
All just a matter of perspective, is all. When you step on an ant hill by accident, were you uncaring? More like oblivious. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 14:20:18
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quote:
There was nothing before Ao.
Ao created only the Realmsverse. Ao has a Master. There are others like Ao.
I wouldn't say that there was nothing before him. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 17:34:04
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It has also been theorized that Io (the draconic 'High God') is the Overgod of Oerth (Greyhawk).
The LoP may be the Overgod of The Outlands, but thats just one of my personal theories.
Also, Maztica, Fate (Zakhara), and The Celestial Emperor were all Overgods in 2e (briefly), before it was retconed. Ao was only the Overgod of Faerun, until inconsistencies arose and they had to 'fix it'. This was only for a brief period, until new sources clarified his greater position.
This is why I adopted a bit of HB lore for the cosmology - the position of 'High gods', which reside just above normal deities, but are not quite Overpowers. I also use the term 'Pantheonic Leader', which is a bit cumbersome. This being takes the same place as demi-powers do compared to deities, making them sort-of demi-Overgods (the assumption being that each tier in the 'divine rank' of things has a 'pupal Stage' - a transitional period where the being is at the threshold of the next higher cosmic tier).
Come to think of it, Primordials might fit this stage well. Hmmmmm...
So Maztica, Fate, and the CE could all be Overgods-in-training, as it were. My own personal piece of FR-homebrew dictates that K-T's Celestial Emperor is actually a fragment of THE Celestial Emperor - a true Overgod of its own Sphere - which had to split into separate (and less powerful) aspects in order to evacuate his sphere's beings (both divine and mortal) after some catastrophe. Basically, these 'high-God' fragments are akin to Avatars - they are just the individual bits that make up the Overgod. The same may also be true of Maztica and Fate (both of which I also have hb lore for as well). This is why Ao gives them - and their pantheons - special consideration (its a 'respect thing').
Which helps explain that temporary anomaly during 2e - they are Overgods... just not in Realmspace. Once again, all homebrew, so take it with a grain of salt.
Oh... and as for Maztica... I think she's a fragment of Io... but thats another tale.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Dec 2011 17:36:43 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 00:23:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
quote:
There was nothing before Ao.
Ao created only the Realmsverse. Ao has a Master. There are others like Ao.
I wouldn't say that there was nothing before him.
I don't think such considerations can ever be properly ascertained. Especially by mortals within the Realms.
For those who even perceive of the possibility for Ao [and judging by most of the recent lore, this number is steadily decreasing], he is the "be all and end all." What comes before, I suppose, is a question left largely to mystics, philosophers, and those with a religious bent for such concerns. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 00:38:00
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What came before Ao was ... Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (1st Edition*) and the original FR0 "Grey Box" ... themselves preceded by Chainmail and piles of largely unpublished Ed writings mostly centered around Mirt. Interestingly enough - there was "balance" in these games and stories. 
* Not actually called 1st Edition at the time, of course, only retronymed with the introduction of AD&D 2nd Edition. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 21 Dec 2011 00:41:09 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 03:11:12
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I refer to the pre-published Realms as the "Zeroth Edition" (like Asomov's "Zeroth law of Robotics").
And in OD&D, there is canon that beyond the gods is 'something else', which many gods aspire to attain... but even they do not know what "lies beyond". They only know there is more (and by gods, I mean the Immortals of OD&D). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Dec 2011 03:05:03 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 04:09:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I refer to it as the "Zeroth Edition" (like Asomov's "Zeroth law of Robotics").
And in OD&D, there is canon that beyond the gods is 'something else', which many gods aspire to attain... but even they do not know what "lies beyond". They only know there is more (and by gods, I mean the Immortals of OD&D).
The "Immortals" boxed set is one of my all-time favourite RPG products. I still refer to it even today. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 09:59:28
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When do you think would WotC cease to assign a Greater Master for Lesser Masters? At first there were only the greater gods as supreme beings in the cosmos. Then they created Ao to be the gods' father. And recently they made the "Master" of Ao. What's next? A Council of Eternities/Infinities? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 10:00:28
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| There is allways a bigger fish |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 21 Dec 2011 10:02:28 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 15:33:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
When do you think would WotC cease to assign a Greater Master for Lesser Masters? At first there were only the greater gods as supreme beings in the cosmos. Then they created Ao to be the gods' father. And recently they made the "Master" of Ao. What's next? A Council of Eternities/Infinities?
I've actually toyed with the concept of a "Creator God Council" -- composed entirely of the creator gods of practically every pantheon and/or setting/world.
For example, I believe Ao would transdimensionally hobnob with the High God of Krynn on matters of multiversal importance. [I'm actually borrowing somewhat from the imagery of the Marvel Comics celestial conception -- in that the heads of various pantheons and assorted creator divine types sometimes come together to plan strategies for threats that could arise and potentially consume the entire multiverse.] |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 15:40:46
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Hmm. Ao is a Creator God. What does that make his "Master"? Greater Creator God? SuperCreator God?
So perhaps you can instead have (as the highest/supreme body) the "Council of Greater Creator Gods," who supervises the overgods. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 20:51:53
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| For all we know, Ao-the-creator is just a lesser employee who constantly churns out worlds (and other interesting products) off his station in a cosmic production line. Or he could just as easily be in some sort of godly kindergarten, the Realms could be the awkwardly imperfect creation of a child. There's little sense in speculation without any data. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 21:55:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
When do you think would WotC cease to assign a Greater Master for Lesser Masters? At first there were only the greater gods as supreme beings in the cosmos. Then they created Ao to be the gods' father. And recently they made the "Master" of Ao. What's next? A Council of Eternities/Infinities?
I think we've all missed the forest for the trees here....
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And in OD&D, there is canon that beyond the gods is 'something else'...
It's a Collossal Cosmic Conspiracy Consortium. The purpose of which is to keep any of us from discovering that beyond the Mortals, Demi-Gods, Gods, High Gods, Over Gods it's.........................
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Wait for it.............
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Ed of the Green Wood!!!!!
(Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain...) |
Edited by - Wolfhound75 on 21 Dec 2011 21:58:30 |
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Erudite
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 21:57:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
For all we know, Ao-the-creator is just a lesser employee who constantly churns out worlds (and other interesting products) off his station in a cosmic production line. Or he could just as easily be in some sort of godly kindergarten, the Realms could be the awkwardly imperfect creation of a child. There's little sense in speculation without any data.
I like this explanation  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 00:53:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Hmm. Ao is a Creator God. What does that make his "Master"? Greater Creator God? SuperCreator God?
Check with Grant Morrison -- Supergod!
quote:
So perhaps you can instead have (as the highest/supreme body) the "Council of Greater Creator Gods," who supervises the overgods.
In this isntance, I usually hint [rather than suggest outright] that the universal consciousness [composed of the "star-stuff" {yes, I'm borrowing from the religion of the Minbari in Babylon 5 for that} of every living being, object, and entity itself, is the final arbiter on ALL of creation.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 03:29:43
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I've been toying with the idea of having the actual stars and planets be the gods - the forms mortals see are just 'sendings'; Avatars in humanoid form. The central sun of every system/Sphere would be THE Overgod. In that model, theoretically there could be spheres with more then one Overgod (binary systems, for instance).
I wouldn't want to live in a sphere where the Overgod was a Black Hole.
I wonder if the Overgod of the Dwarven Home World system is a White Dwarf. 
I know that doesn't really work in FR, unless Aumanator/Lathander were both just Avatars of Ao. Aumanator maybe... A'tar... its workable. Lathander just doesn't fit, unless he was a mortal Saint/Chosen/Exarch of Aumanator who ascended.
Then each Sun/system would be part of a greater consciousness, which would be a galaxy, and then the galaxies would make up the ultimate consciousness, which would be universe itself. Theoretically there could be yet another layer, where the consciousness of each universe is part of the Multiversal Overmind.
So is the Overgod of Earth Oberon (the Chronicles of Amber) or Alanis Morisette (DOGMA)?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Dec 2011 03:32:42 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 04:04:33
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Our classical civilizations (and likely many others) identified the planets with their gods, and we still use (even perpetuate) their mythological naming scheme today. Astrology and religion were once inseparable.
There is a finite (and not very large) number of sizeable/interesting satellites orbiting within Realmspace - I think these objects are outnumbered by the gods. There could be many more objects in an "open" solar system (like ours) which isn't clearly defined within the boundaries of a crystal sphere.
Stars and constellations being little more than lamps painted onto an inner surface seems rather lame to me, but oh well, that's just the way it is. I suppose the grandest acts of vandalism move these patterns around. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 04:54:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've been toying with the idea of having the actual stars and planets be the gods - the forms mortals see are just 'sendings'; Avatars in humanoid form. The central sun of every system/Sphere would be THE Overgod. In that model, theoretically there could be spheres with more then one Overgod (binary systems, for instance).
I like this idea.
In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that the actual galaxy would be the "celestial sphere" of multiple pantheons and their associated gods. Every solar system would be home to an individual pantheon, a domain, with the head of each being the central star [or stars, in the case of binary or trinary solar systems {which could generate a cool concept for joint co-ruling high gods over a particular system of planetary gods}]. The path of planetary formation could determine the greater, lesser, and demigod statuses of the gods. Gas Giants as greater gods -- being more ethereal and difficult to define, while lesser powers would be rocky planetary bodies, being more grounded in the world of mortals by having defined substance. Asteroids and the leftover bits of planetary genesis could be the demigods -- halfway points between nothingness and planets. The overgod, as I see it, would be the central mass of stars and energy inhabiting the centre of the galaxy [discounting the popular astrophysical view that supermassive black holes sit at the centres of most galaxies -- and, also, hinting somewhat at the plot of Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, I suppose].
Gaseous anomalies between stars and/or systems could proto-gods. Their future relations determined by which stars/gods died as supernovas, prior to their births -- thus spreading their divine solar might beyond their domains and forging the potential for new gods and pantheons to be born in the stellar darkness between systems.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 07:40:14
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I'm not inclined to buy the idea that the gods are stars and planets. As manifestations, perhaps. Something to make their presence known; to remind their sentient creations of their existence and importance. BUT not the gods themselves per se. The gods (in my opinion, of course) are supposed to be composed of both material and immaterial things. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 20:10:15
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In 4e the stars are sentient creatures of extreme power. I forget their exact nature, but I recall that they are all watching the mortal world and hate mortals with a passion beyond our understanding, and that some of them are slowly making their way towards the mortal world.
The idea of celestial bodies being the physical bodies of the gods is also used in the Elder Scrolls universe; you'll noticed in games that as the moons wane, you can see through the dark parts, which shouldn't be possible. That's because the moons are the rotting remains of Lorkan, the ancient trickster god of the pantheon. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 00:10:53
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| In Bob Shaw's Orbitsville series, Bob writes that a galaxy has sentience and has overgod-like powers (much to the surprise of the main character). |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 00:19:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
In 4e the stars are sentient creatures of extreme power. I forget their exact nature, but I recall that they are all watching the mortal world and hate mortals with a passion beyond our understanding, and that some of them are slowly making their way towards the mortal world.
Is this true also for the 4E Realms? Given that there are (most likely) star-pact warlocks in the new Realms, perhaps yes?
If so, that strikes me as yet another (major) cosmological difference between the old and the new.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 01:21:59
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| Markus - you might like The Dragon and the Unicorn by A. A. Attanasio. A story full of pagan symbology, each world is a dragon, a living sentient magical thing; our world is a somewhat hateful, troubled dragon, angered by the gods and lesser creatures which live like parasites upon it. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 02:04:24
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I had once considered having the worlds be primordial giants; there is some sort of ancient connection (and animosity) between dragons and giants. Perhaps the stars are dragons, and the planets giants? We could equate solar-flares with fire-breathing.
My idea isn't original, obviously, but only partly derived from Greek Mythology. My concept of sentient stars (and planets) comes from a very old series i read called The Starchild Trilogy, which was a pretty unique idea for me, back when I read mostly fantasy. In that series, humans learned to communicate with their suns, and even become part of the universal consciousness (the suns are all telepathic, and therefor connected in a massive, galaxy-wide network). Becoming part of that network was akin to becoming a god; your awareness was expanded - you were able to experience everything every other being and star was experiencing - basically, omnipresent. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Dec 2011 17:28:53 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 17:33:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Is this true also for the 4E Realms? Given that there are (most likely) star-pact warlocks in the new Realms, perhaps yes?
Nope. Stars in Realmspace are portals to a radiant region of the Elemental Chaos. Pretty much as it's always been. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 19:18:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Is this true also for the 4E Realms? Given that there are (most likely) star-pact warlocks in the new Realms, perhaps yes?
Nope. Stars in Realmspace are portals to a radiant region of the Elemental Chaos. Pretty much as it's always been.
So how do star-pact warlocks work in the Realms?
Or are there none?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 00:32:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Is this true also for the 4E Realms? Given that there are (most likely) star-pact warlocks in the new Realms, perhaps yes?
Nope. Stars in Realmspace are portals to a radiant region of the Elemental Chaos. Pretty much as it's always been.
Indeed. The stars of Realmspace were specifically noted as being portals to the Plane of Radiance in the older lore. Which, I guess, has been folded into the Elemental Chaos now in the 4e cosmology, given that plane's correspondence to the older Inner Planes framework. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Has Ao personally destroyed a god?
