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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 06:59:13
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Now, if you read the history, you notice Toril's earliest human civilizations were mostly known for their magic. But perhaps the Imaskari aren't the first human civilization, but were simply known as such because of their magic. Any civilization older than Imaskar would be somewhere around 9000 years old, and that doesn't leave much of a trace. So perhaps there are human nations that flourished in the few open spaces even as the Crown Wars waged all around?
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 07:40:15
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Nothing definitive, I'm afraid.
Humans are native to Toril, one of the Creator Races, known to have existed since the Days of Thunder, the earliest historical era [-35,000 to -30,000 DR]. They only achieved advanced civilisation later, but were around at least as long as the other Creator Races. We do know that some humans arrived from other worlds [likely bringing their own individual cultural and societal ways with them] -- such as those who would eventually migrate to Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhara -- as Powers & Pantheons and the 3e FRCS note. Judging from tidbits of info, from Ed, and various FR sources [in particular, Races of Faerūn]... they've either evolved naturally, or they were created by the gods in Faerūn's ancient past.
Also, Serpent Kingdoms and A Grand History of the Realms are both some of the best sources for this really early history. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 11:32:29
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Ancient civilizations in the Realms might be known for their magic simply because they lacked any non-magical technologies which could construct anything lasting. The only surviving evidence of their civilization are the magical structures, artifacts, and ritual arcane/divine components they constructed.
Our own civilization might be remembered ten thousand years from now as a people skilled at manufacturing plastics and radioactives. Not necessarily because this is the defining trait of our society, only the one with the longest shelf-life. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 13:26:35
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This is a very good question for Ed. It would also be interesting to know what human civilization first learned magic, and from whom/what. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 17:57:40
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Well, Sorcery and Druidism, by their very nature, were probably some of the first paths to magic that humanity took.
But yes, I agree that those early civilizations were known for magic simply because of the shelf-life of the results of their magical overuse.
Also, in one of the Dragon story anthologies, there is a story that takes place in the very distant past. I couldn't figure out what civilization it was, though I was admittedly new to the Realms at the time. I'm not talking about the story with the elves making the Dracorage Mythal, I'm talking about the story with the shadow dragon. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 19:23:16
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There were civilized humans during the Dawn Ages, before the First Flowering. We know this because there is at least one CANON (short) story wherein highly evolved (modern) humans are interacting with both Elves and Dragons (at the time Dragons 'ruled the world'). Presumably, these Elves were the 4e Elves (the ones that were 'sent ahead' by the Fey), because the other canon we have concerning the Elves (who we now know were Eladrin) was when they arrived after the fall of Tintageer (in Faerie). Keep in-mind we used to know the Elves as Green/Wood/(dark) Elves, and the Eladrin as High/Gray(not Grey) or Gold/Silver or even Sun/Moon/Star. The fact that the GHotR gives us (at least) two different 'Elven Arrivals' helps us with some of this problematic consistency.
Regardless, humans were advanced (civilized) and living among other sentient species right after the time of the Creator Races (Days of Thunder).
Now for the conjecture - the Humans in that short story were what was left of the human ethnic group that was THE Creator race (along with the other four); it makes sense - to me - if all the Creator Races lived during those prehistoric times, otherwise it seems like a bit of a stretch to group them together the way they are (since plenty of other groups can make similar 'creator' claims). Furthermore, Humans are considered 'The Race of Destiny' (D&D canon), which may or may not be related to them being a Creator race (but I think it should all be related).
Also, there are ruins that pre-date ANY known human culture (both in the north and the far east), which can be attributed to this 'lost' group of early humanity.
Anything else I think (and have posted elsewhere) goes well beyond conjecture and deep into Homebrew, and this is all that I feel is pertinent to this particular subject. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Dec 2011 19:28:56 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 20:26:24
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Markustay, I think I remember that story, with the humans being underlings to the Dragons. I always assumed that the humans regressed to a more barbaric state afterwards. I assume you mean "modern" in the 1370s Faerun sense, not the modern-day Earth sense?
And yes, I do remember when Elves and Eladrin were Green/Wood/Wild and Sun/Moon. I never actually made the jump to 4e. To me, Eladrin are still the Chaotic Good celestials. And while, in my personal D&D cosomology, Elves were originally the "people" of the Faerie Realm, they were not, in themselves, fey.
Edit: I'm not trying to be all against 4e Lore here, I'll admit I have my misgivings with many of the retcons, but I'm just being clear on what "version" of Realms canon I'm working off of, if that makes sense? |
Edited by - Eladrinstar on 09 Dec 2011 20:40:11 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 22:10:05
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| Perfectly acceptable. Plenty of us here at the Keep don't consider anything 4e related actually canon. We've just all agreed to stop screaming at each other about it. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2011 : 19:46:44
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LMAO ^ Nice one, Hoondatha 
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
Markustay, I think I remember that story, with the humans being underlings to the Dragons. I always assumed that the humans regressed to a more barbaric state afterwards. I assume you mean "modern" in the 1370s Faerun sense, not the modern-day Earth sense?
As in, they don't look like 'cavemmen' - they are physically the same looking as us (or modern-day Faerunians, whatever edition you use).
I make that point because humans here on Earth 35,000 years ago look very different from us (but still human, none the less). The planet Oerth (Greyhawk) has Cavemen, as do a few other published settings, but there is no evidence of 'primitive man' in the Realms, AFAIK. That leads me to believe that Humans were either interlopers, created whole-cloth in the Realms, or (most likely) their beginnings are SO far in the distant past that no-one, not even the Elves, have any records of it. Also, bear in ind that anything really primitive-looking that gets unearthed (archaeology) would probably be blamed on some other sentient species (like Goblinoids), so 'early man' on Toril may just have gotten over-looked and been mis-categorized. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Dec 2011 19:48:24 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2011 : 20:18:04
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I'd imagine the only thing left would be standing stone structures, likely now worn down to megaliths. Which I imagine are later co-opted by druidic circles. Which is actually exactly what happened in the real world.
Ed Greenwood, in those So Saith Ed threads, once remarked that Faerun's scholars believe the land to be twice as old as the Days of Thunder. Now, I'm not sure if that's meant to be truth or just what the scholars believe to be truth. |
Edited by - Eladrinstar on 10 Dec 2011 20:20:55 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2011 : 04:03:05
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Actually, humans just 2000 years ago looked different from us. Even those separated by just a few generations look somewhat different, although changes in diet, activity, medicine, and environment - plus the increased merging of historically isolated population groups - might be strongly influential factors.
Then again, even Neanderthals don't look as different from "modern humans" as we once thought. |
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Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Dec 2011 04:04:04 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2011 : 05:04:53
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| Markus did say those humans looked different from us. (And I agree, even Neanderthals have left a slight genetic impact on humanity, everywhere except sub-Saharan Africa.) |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2011 : 20:24:06
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Early human civilizations on Fearun should be comparable to early hunter gatherers of the stone an bronze age on earth. Largely nomadic tribes that lived by following the seasonal resources along the landscape. Agriculture must have been a late discovery as pacifying an area long enough to ensure a harvest meant the humans had to compete with more advanced and established cultures of other humanoids, giants and dragons for the land they wished to inhabit. The earliest I see this happening is after the decline of the Scaley Folk, when the Yuanti and Saruhkk populations began to lose vigour because of dropping global temperatures. I am convinced that stabilised human culture was probably best possible if they became subservient to a dragon overlord, enjoying its protection while tending the land.
Elves paved the way for humans because their offworld knowledge of magic (their unique blend of both divine and arcane sorcery called elven high magic and their already perfected art of mixing martial skill with arcane magic) and their experienced organisation managed them to maintain effective strategies against physically superior creatures. Dwarves had freed themselves from giant overlords on other worlds through tenaciousness, divine aid and bold acts of demolition, so they too would have brought to Fearun effective strategies for rebelling against the powerhouse civilisations on Fearun at that time.
Only when the bigger races such as giants and dragons were combatted into decline did human civilizations have the courage to maintain a claim on land. The building of organised mage clans must have helped a great deal for establishing a military threat large enough to deter invasions from rival races. Perhaps because early humans were limited to sorcerers that were born at random and were difficult to organise in groups were humans confined to keeping a low profile. Maybe when sorcerers began being born more often (because of the blood of draconic overlords became increasingly prevalent in human populations) the tides turned for the better. Another theory that could be possible is when the basics of wizardry were discovered (from the elves?) did humans dare to try to lay a claim on the real power of holding lands as wizards are more readily organised into clans or guilds.
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My campaign sketches
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 04:37:41
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| I'm not so convinced that the Elves were responsible for humanity's rise to civilization. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 09:04:13
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Grand History of the Realms says that, during the Days of Thunder "Though humans did exist during this time, they were primitive and apelike, using only simple tools and living in caves." And if you check out the Days of Thunder map, it notes that "Primitive Human Tribes" inhabited the southwest area of the continent, in the region that would later become the continent Katashaka.
We know that the Sarrukh created (or bred) Yuan-Ti, which are human-scalyfolk hybrids. This suggests that human slaves were kept by the Sarrukh and their scalyfolk servitors. Humans may thus have first learned something about civilization from the Sarrukh (or their minions.)
GHOTR also states that circa -18,000 DR "estimates suggest that the Citadel of the Raven was constructed in this period. Some scholars purport that the citadel is irrefutable evidence that a grand human nation existed on Faerūn long before recorded history. Sages have further theorized that the barbarians of The Ride are the descendants of that once-great civilization."
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 16:10:06
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I had theorized two separate groups - one more advanced then the other, but both having civilizations more along 'modern' lines (not tribal).
The first was the Posi peoples, who rose during the Days of Thunder and controlled a large area in the North. At this time the poles were in a different position - the planet has suffered from at least one crustal shift (definitely meteoric in origin). Their civilization would have been centered around the very large island in the massive bay north of the Sword Coast - See this map here. The Endless Sea shown on the Giantcraft map is actually part this very large inland bay.
The second would have been centered around the eastern and southern shores of the Yal Tangri - the Great Ice Sea. These were the early Kalmyk people, or rather, the Raumviran, who became the Kalmyk, Raumathari, Rashemi, etc (all the 'slavic-like' peoples of Faerūn). Note that this sea opens up to the greater ocean north of it, and is connected by water to the rest of the northern shore of the Faerūn continent (the one mistake of the Fonstad maps). Not really a mistake, so much as a 'misrepresentation' - the sea freezes-over often, sometimes for centuries at at time, and is a treacherous crossing even during the best of times (except before the crustal shift, when the climate was warmer).
My theory is that the fairly advanced Posi people met and traded with the proto-Kalmyk, who were still fairly tribal, and probably even dominated them for a period of time. However, the proto-Kalmyk (Rauma people?) learned a great deal from them, included things like sea-faring. After the cataclysm (The Sundering, which I think was actually coupled with other events, like a tearfall), the Posi civilization was left in ruins, and within a century or so fell back into barbarism, but the Kalmyk were able to use their purloined knowledge and build their own kingdoms (including the Citystate of Kalvera... but thats another story...)
Ergo, the Posi people would have been a civilized pre-Sundering (Days of Thunder) people, and the Kalmyk would have risen soon after their fall during the Dawn Ages. These two groups would account for the majority of antideluvian (truly ancient) human ruins found around the Realms. Keep in mind that most other humans at this time would have been fairly primitive, but in various stages of development (just like RW). After the Kalmyk, the next group of any significance would be the Cortae (FR's early Celt-like people), from which we get many of our other Heartlands ethnic groups. The Talfir would have been one of the first Cortae tribes to rise above the hunter-gatherer state, soon followed by the proto-Tethyrians and others.
None of this contradicts canon - quite the contrary. In our RW, we STILL have many groups of 'primitives' living at the tribal - and even sub-tribal (family) - level. That means the 'ape-like' humans mentioned in the GHotR (and I have to wonder at that entry) would have been in the majority on Toril, with small pockets of more advanced humans spread around (once again, just like RW). The fact that we have many other sentient beings on Abeir-Toril feeds into this line of reasoning - if it is possible in the RW to have primitives living at the same time as folk with flight (the Australian aborigines worshiped airplanes!), then shouldn't extremely varied levels of culture be even more likely where we have 'outside influences'?
I never really understood the existence of 'cave people' in fantasy, because the existence of gods normally precludes evolution, but whatever. Another strange entry is the one in PotFS product, on that island with the time portal; it mentions primitive Elves! I figure they mean culturally, since 'cave-elves' shouldn't exist, because canonically they were created whole-cloth. These were probably the 'common' Elves that were sent ahead to Toril before the fall of Tintageer, and before the arrival of the Eladrin (High Elves), and those Elves - the Sylvan Elves (which includes Dark, Green, wood, wild, etc) still live at a fairly primitive level (technologically, not culturally).
I have a theory that the Sundering had as much to do with wiping-out the up-and-coming human civilizations as it did with creating Evermeet; in fact, Evermeet may have just been a byproduct (punishment?) of a more nefarious High Magic Ritual (there is always 'a price'). Keep in mind that THE Sundering occurred during at least two different points in history, since the ritual "Reached backwards and forwards in time", which is why I think all of it - Tintageer, the Tearfall, the War of Light & Darkness, the Fey exodus, etc, is all connected to one on-going event. Elven High Magic doesn't so much as make things happen, as it does tap into history itself and arranges things so they happen - remember, the Fey have a unique relationship with time, and Elven High Magic canonically existed before Elves learned of The Weave (the ritual which brought them to Faerūn), which means it must be based on Fey (Faerie) magic.
All stuff I have worked-out for my own proto-history of the Realms (ALL the realms, meaning all worlds, not just Toril), so its mostly homebrew, based upon some pretty sparse canon. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Dec 2011 16:26:26 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 08:23:06
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| Of course ''cave-men'' are possible in fantasy, when gods create some creature that doesn't mean its form is set in stone and it cannot evolve or de-evolve. And humans of 30 000+ thousands years ago (or even 200 000 years ago) were just like the modern humans, with the same ability to establish a civilization. |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 16:53:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Of course ''cave-men'' are possible in fantasy, when gods create some creature that doesn't mean its form is set in stone and it cannot evolve or de-evolve. And humans of 30 000+ thousands years ago (or even 200 000 years ago) were just like the modern humans, with the same ability to establish a civilization.
Sorry, but pet peeves are kicking in: There is no such thing as "de-evolution." But yes, I agree, who is to say that Chauntea or someone didn't set up conditions on Toril that certain lifeforms would evolve the way she wanted them to? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36966 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 19:05:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Of course ''cave-men'' are possible in fantasy, when gods create some creature that doesn't mean its form is set in stone and it cannot evolve or de-evolve. And humans of 30 000+ thousands years ago (or even 200 000 years ago) were just like the modern humans, with the same ability to establish a civilization.
Sorry, but pet peeves are kicking in: There is no such thing as "de-evolution." But yes, I agree, who is to say that Chauntea or someone didn't set up conditions on Toril that certain lifeforms would evolve the way she wanted them to?
Actually, I think that in a setting where evolution can be aided, hindered, or worked around by magic or divine fiat, that de-evolution would be possible thru the same methods. |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 20:46:59
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quote:
Actually, I think that in a setting where evolution can be aided, hindered, or worked around by magic or divine fiat, that de-evolution would be possible thru the same methods.
I guess what I was trying to say was that I wanted to avoid the implication that anything can be "less evolved" or that evolution goes in any sort of direction like more- or less-advanced. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 01:06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Of course ''cave-men'' are possible in fantasy, when gods create some creature that doesn't mean its form is set in stone and it cannot evolve or de-evolve. And humans of 30 000+ thousands years ago (or even 200 000 years ago) were just like the modern humans, with the same ability to establish a civilization.
Sorry, but pet peeves are kicking in: There is no such thing as "de-evolution." But yes, I agree, who is to say that Chauntea or someone didn't set up conditions on Toril that certain lifeforms would evolve the way she wanted them to?
Actually, I think that in a setting where evolution can be aided, hindered, or worked around by magic or divine fiat, that de-evolution would be possible thru the same methods.
Agreed. So long as there are arcane manipulative forces that directly conduct along biological lines [a nefariously crafted perverse shape-shifting spell which regresses a biological entity to an earlier stage of evolutionary development, for example]... I can't see it being all that difficult for de-evolution to work in a fantasy setting. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 01:49:25
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Most Spelljammer folk view groundlings as their devolved or primitive (at least blatantly ignorant) cousins. Who would want to live on the scab of a smelly old mudball?
Planars have similar opinions towards Primes and Primers. Although their attitudes tend to be slightly more predatory.
There might be some merit in their opinions, since it has been established that various races or populations arrived to the Realms from other worlds and other planes. Humans of the Realms seem quite underdeveloped when measured against the Gith races. Elves (of any edition, by any name) are certainly inferior to the pure eladrin who dwell on the outer planes. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 06:27:31
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| Again, I'm not saying that magic and such can't turn humans into cavemen, but I'm saying that's not de-evolution because nothing is actually "less evolved" than anything else. Evolution doesn't work in a straight line towards "more advanced and better." It's just the tern "de-evolution" is a pet peeve and I take (perhaps inappropriate) umbrage at its use. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 07:17:43
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Of course "de-evolution" is misplaced, but no more than "evolution" as the term is understood within popular convention and usage. The more precise term would be "natural selection" and every species surviving on our world today is as equally "evolved" to fit into its niche as every other. I learned long ago that arguing the finer points of technical and scientific terminology has its place, and that arguments over the specific subject of "evolution" are generally not well placed on forums discussing imaginary worlds.
Cavemen and proto-human sorts exist side by side with "modern" humans in the Realms, that's a fact supported by evidence from various manuals and compendiums. In some cases the canon asserts that these are "devolved" humans, in others they have somehow "evolved" in isolation, in yet others they are the result of magical or divine or simply inexplicable manipulations.
We also have all sorts of other anachronisms and inconsistencies in the Realms. We inevitably conceive of the Realms with our modern ideas, technology, industry, social and cultural values, etc. Why bother arguing pedantically about whether a gnomish flying device is "invented" from scratch or "reverse engineered" from our world? Or whether our value-bias towards egalitarianism, democracy, freedom, non-discrimination against gender/race/ethnicity/etc happened to arise within the Realms or were imposed by our design?
The Realms is a fictional and fantastic setting, filled with all sorts of things that do not exist in our nonfictional and mundane world. Cavemen and mechanical warforged side by side, carrying firearms, wearing bronze plate mail, hunting dinosaurs? Ridiculous and impossible are parts of the package deal. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 10:19:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
Again, I'm not saying that magic and such can't turn humans into cavemen, but I'm saying that's not de-evolution because nothing is actually "less evolved" than anything else. Evolution doesn't work in a straight line towards "more advanced and better." It's just the tern "de-evolution" is a pet peeve and I take (perhaps inappropriate) umbrage at its use.
I guess it's not the most appropriate term I used. I meant mutation of modern humans into something less intelligent, for example in fantasy Morlocks, or those Lovecraft's inbred people, or grimlocks. But in D&D universe actually it's possible ''evolution'' is goal-oriented, into more perfect forms, like the Godsmen of Planescape believe. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 17:41:09
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If humans were to have a need to be more 'feral' (after an apocalypse, for instance), then nature would kick-in and they would EVOLVE into something more 'primitive' (claws, sharper teeth, etc).
However, Wooly has a point - in a fictional setting, anything is possible, so it should be possible to literally 'reverse' evolution on a creature... maybe even an entire species.
And just for Sage: The High Evolutionary 
I agree that cavemen are entirely possible - I just don't find them necessary. Humans were (in D&D/Fantasy) probably created whole-cloth, just like the other races (I have a theory that only aberrations evolved naturally... which is a bit of a paradox): The niche of 'cavemen' is already filled-in by dozens of other species.
And that scenario is even more likely in a multiverse, with various versions of the same species evolving at different rates. Toril's vast portal network (The Road of Stars and Shadows) allows all sorts of cultural anomalies, and it could be that the 'ape-like' people were Toril's aborigines, and the more modern-looking ones were interlopers (I have a 3rd theory, which I prefer, but thats neither here nor there). Throw in time-travel, and anything is possible culturally and physically where species evolution is involved.
As an aside, since Ayrik brings it up - how do Planers and Jammers feel about each other, if both look down at Groundlings/Primes? 
I would imagine Planers would think Jammers were... imbeciles. Spelljamming is kinda pointless once you throw planeswalking into the mix. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Dec 2011 18:05:25 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 17:49:13
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| To me, the Planars always came off as arrogant. Especially the Outer Planars. Their whole universes are defined by the beliefs of the Primers and they refuse to acknowledge that. |
Edited by - Eladrinstar on 16 Dec 2011 17:49:33 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36966 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 21:37:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As an aside, since Ayrik brings it up - how do Planers and Jammers feel about each other, if both look down at Groundlings/Primes?
I don't believe that was ever addressed... I'd imagine that it'd be a mix of opinions, depending on the individual.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Spelljamming is kinda pointless once you throw planeswalking into the mix.
Not really... It's like saying cars or planes make trains obsolete -- this is obviously not the case, though all three vehicle types accomplish the same general function. There are different reasons for using or not using each, and it'd be the same with using planar or space travel. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 23:40:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And just for Sage: The High Evolutionary
Strangely enough, I started reading "The Evolutionary War" crossover because of this very scroll. It got me thinking about how I might incorporate a High Evolutionary-type in my Realms. [Along with the associated animalistic New Men, of course.]
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 23:43:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As an aside, since Ayrik brings it up - how do Planers and Jammers feel about each other, if both look down at Groundlings/Primes?
I don't believe that was ever addressed... I'd imagine that it'd be a mix of opinions, depending on the individual.
Agreed.
Though I'd tend to assume that those planars of traditionally exotic or "supreme" planes would consider groundlings as less-civilised. And those of a religious bent may consider groundlings as less-religious... especially if said planars just happen to reside in the same domain of their revered deity.
quote:
Not really... It's like saying cars or planes make trains obsolete -- this is obviously not the case, though all three vehicle types accomplish the same general function. There are different reasons for using or not using each, and it'd be the same with using planar or space travel.
And besides, not every location in the multiverse is accessible via planewalking. Spelljamming may be the only way to go. Or vice versa for those regions of the multiverse which are inaccessible via the Phologiston. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 01:36:44
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The opinions of jammers and planars would depend very much on the context.
A fiend would of course be feared/respected for being a fiend anywhere - but if he's completely ignorant on all the basics about spelljamming and spacefaring then he's no better than a groundling. The brimstone and hellfire wouldn't make him very popular either; he'd often be more of a liability than an asset no matter how impressive his many planar abilities might be. Savvy spacefarers might be careful about when and where (and to whom) they express their insulting opinions about this fiend because they're stuck with him on board their not-very-big ship for a long time while it sails through some nasty places. Celestials are less intolerable, but again they'd likely know nothing about the basics and be not a lot better than any other groundling. A crew of modrons or slaadi would be nothing more than a bizarre travesty.
The captain and crew of a spelljammer, finding themselves in Sigil, would likely be treated just like any other dumb primes. Sure, they might be high rolling berks in their little spoke on the Wheel, but they don't know anything about how to keep out of the dead book anywhere else. May their gods have mercy on their souls if their jammership should somehow manage to crash land on some random inner or outer plane or be stranded in some astral sargasso.
Githyanki (and perhaps illithids and elves) operate in space and across many planes. They'd be easily recognized as peers/enemies in either environment. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Dec 2011 01:48:22 |
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Earliest Human Civilizations?
