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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 15:11:45
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Several fictional characters have the initials J.B.---Jason Bourne, James Bond, Jack Bauer, Jack Bristow, and of course, the Realms' Jarlaxle Baenre. Pure coincidence? Or is there some cosmic conspiracy behind the replications of these initials? 
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 15:28:15
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| John Wilkes Booth... |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 15:41:51
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That's JWB.
Besides, he's a real man. I was referring to famous fictional characters only. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
731 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 16:11:47
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| Well you know, sometimes there is a think called chance is like asking why all of Stan Lee's characters have the same initials, Peter Parker, Stephen Strange, Matt Murdock, Bruce Banner, Reed Richards, John Jonnah Jameson Junior..... |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 16:43:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That's JWB.
Besides, he's a real man. I was referring to famous fictional characters only.
John Booth then  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 16:56:18
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I suspect the J.B. for spy characters isn't a coincidence, all of them being a subtle homage to James Bond. Jarlaxle is sort of a spy and runs a sort-of spy organization, so his name could indeed be the same sort of homage.
Maybe that's the connection you're looking for?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 17:47:35
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My initials are J.B., and I'm awesome, so I guess it all makes sense.
Mods, you can seal this scroll, case closed |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 19:14:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Well you know, sometimes there is a think called chance is like asking why all of Stan Lee's characters have the same initials, Peter Parker, Stephen Strange, Matt Murdock, Bruce Banner, Reed Richards, John Jonnah Jameson Junior.....
Bobby Drake, Charles Xavier, Victor Von Doom, Erik Lansherr, Jean Grey, Henry McCoy... Oh, wait. 
Seriously, I've heard this "fact" before, and it's always mystified me. It's obviously not true, though there is perhaps a tendency to play the matching initials. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Dec 2011 19:19:10 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 19:18:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I suspect the J.B. for spy characters isn't a coincidence, all of them being a subtle homage to James Bond. Jarlaxle is sort of a spy and runs a sort-of spy organization, so his name could indeed be the same sort of homage.
Maybe that's the connection you're looking for?
Cheers
I suspect the opposite, myself. I'm inclined to think it's a coincidence.
Particularly with Jason Bourne... In the books, David Webb assumed the name Jason Bourne, after executing the original one for being a traitor and trying to get his companions killed. The name was selected to capitalize on and add to the rep held by the original Bourne. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
731 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 19:27:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Well you know, sometimes there is a think called chance is like asking why all of Stan Lee's characters have the same initials, Peter Parker, Stephen Strange, Matt Murdock, Bruce Banner, Reed Richards, John Jonnah Jameson Junior.....
Bobby Drake, Charles Xavier, Victor Von Doom, Erik Lansherr, Jean Grey, Henry McCoy... Oh, wait.
Seriously, I've heard this "fact" before, and it's always mystified me. It's obviously not true, though there is perhaps a tendency to play the matching initials.
Maybe is more of a sounding effect, matching initials make the name sound more softly IMO... |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 22:40:44
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| Actually, this double initial naming convention IS common in comics, and I've seen Stan actually comment on why he did this with so many of them (sorry, I forgot the original source, but it was a first-hand quote from him)- it was to make them easier to remember, especially since he often gave his stories to the artists in the form of shorthand notes. Shortening the names to their initials meant that he had less to write down for them. He did not do it with ALL of his characters, but quite a few of them were named that way. And yes, it was on purpose. Apparently, other comic writers just followed the trend for the same reason. As for names with the JB initials, it might well be as Erik says and is an homage to Bond. I like that idea, myself. It makes sense for spy-type characters. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 23:03:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
As for names with the JB initials, it might well be as Erik says and is an homage to Bond. I like that idea, myself. It makes sense for spy-type characters.
I guess it could be looked at that way... But I don't really see Jarlaxle as a spy-type. He's an interesting character, but I don't see anything particularly spy-ish about him.
And the book Jason Bourne (David Webb after assuming the name) wasn't a spy -- he was an assassin(sorta) and former black ops guy, who was originally a diplomat. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 23:50:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Well you know, sometimes there is a think called chance is like asking why all of Stan Lee's characters have the same initials, Peter Parker, Stephen Strange, Matt Murdock, Bruce Banner, Reed Richards, John Jonnah Jameson Junior.....
There's actually a reason for this, as Stan once addressed in one of the first very issues of Fantastic Four.
I'll see if I can find my copy. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 00:13:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Isn't that really what Bond himself was? "spy" seems to be the generic term for any sort of "hush-hush" killer/infiltrator/secret ops type of character. And Jarlaxle has done some of those at one point or another. Working for one House while secretly taking orders from another, etc....
I see a spy as being someone who works for a government and whose primary mission is either gathering intelligence and/or sabotaging enemy plans, only concentrating on threats to his government, and doing it all without getting caught. Bond does fit into that category...
But Jarlaxle is just in it for himself -- he doesn't really do infiltration, and he's not about gathering intelligence, as much as he just sells his troops to whoever pays the most, with the proviso that this could change at a moment's notice. If he does gather intelligence, it's for his own purposes -- mainly to know what angle to play to best benefit himself. He can do these things for a particular House, but he's just as likely to do the same thing for their rivals next week.
Jarlaxle does little that does not benefit or amuse Jarlaxle. He is the quintessential mercenary.
And Bourne's only objective was Carlos the Jackal. It was a single, special mission. All intelligence gathered, all plans sabotaged, it was all towards that one single goal. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Dec 2011 00:15:46 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 00:18:23
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| We are most fortunate in not having to endure Jrizzt Bo'urden, Jelamont Banthul, Jelminster, Banshoon, Jerevis Bale, Jrasek Biven, and Jzass Bam. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Dec 2011 00:41:35 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 02:40:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
A spy who was playing both sides. Gee, who does that sound like....?
Don't forget Sydney Bristow. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 02:44:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I suspect the J.B. for spy characters isn't a coincidence, all of them being a subtle homage to James Bond. Jarlaxle is sort of a spy and runs a sort-of spy organization, so his name could indeed be the same sort of homage.
Maybe that's the connection you're looking for?
Cheers
I suspect the opposite, myself. I'm inclined to think it's a coincidence.
Particularly with Jason Bourne... In the books, David Webb assumed the name Jason Bourne, after executing the original one for being a traitor and trying to get his companions killed. The name was selected to capitalize on and add to the rep held by the original Bourne.
Perhaps. But let's remember that only Carlos was based on a real person's name, and to some extent, personality. David Webb/Cain/Jason Bourne was purely Ludlum's creation. And who's to say he didn't have James Bond in mind when he brainstormed for a protagonist's name in his books? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 09 Dec 2011 16:45:37 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 02:56:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Ah-ha! Sage, that may be the very source I was thinking of for the post above! I'd kiss you, if you weren't in Aussie-land....
Hehe. Now, now, we don't want to cause the Lady K any kind of jealousy, eh?
...
Seriously, though, the only reason I'm remembering this issue [correctly, I hope], is that it's one of my all-time favourite FF tales.
I'm looking through my digital archives of the early 60's issues now. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 08:42:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Well you know, sometimes there is a think called chance is like asking why all of Stan Lee's characters have the same initials, Peter Parker, Stephen Strange, Matt Murdock, Bruce Banner, Reed Richards, John Jonnah Jameson Junior.....
Michael Moorcock occasionnally did this: Jerry Cornelius, Jerry Cornell, Jehamiah Cohnalias, Jhary-a-Conel, Lord Jagged of Canaria and even (although reversed) Corum Jhalen Irsei.
But, then again, most of those guys were supposed to be the same guy anyway . |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 09:21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I see a spy as being someone who works for a government and whose primary mission is either gathering intelligence and/or sabotaging enemy plans, only concentrating on threats to his government, and doing it all without getting caught. Bond does fit into that category...
That's good for you.
However, that is nonsense both etymologically and according to usage. A spy is a spy whether he is employed by a private company, a freelancer or in government service. In fact, the word 'spy' had been in use for centuries before organised government intelligence agencies were ever thought of. The root of the word lies in the Indo-European 'spek-', to look or to see. If you were to say that you defined spy as someone who gathered intelligence, you would be closer to the meaning of the term.
In any case, James Bond, Jason Bourne and Jarlaxle Baenre all have more or less the same job. They are not spies in any real sense, they are covert operators. They do not gather information except as an incidental sideline, they mostly do killing people and breaking stuff. They are supposed to do it in secret, but, ironically, the one living in the fantasy world and whom you are most hesistant about calling a 'spy' is the one who is most successful at secrecy. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 09 Dec 2011 09:21:39 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 13:30:03
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In my vocabulary, all the names mentioned above are spies. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 14:02:07
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Not to add fuel to the fire but, if you remember, JamesBond was not originally "Licensed to Kill" though he did engage in that sort of activity in defense of his person.
All semantics aside, it's safe to say that a 'spy' is someone, who according to common usage, engages in espionage, not merely the gathering of information (LINK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage). The key points being the information gathered is considered secret and that the gathering is inherently clandestine in nature. The target of that espionage I will leave open for discussion but as someone pointed out, it could be against government entities, corporate entities, or even political enemies. Most organized intelligence agencies exist primarily for the gathering of information. There are, however, several stark examples of assassin teams also being in the employ of several notable and notorious government affiliated intelligence agencies. These groups being the arm that engages in what is often known as 'wet work' by those familiar with the jargon.
Suffice it to say, simply gathering information, which I would consider could be done overtly does not make one a spy by use of the common definition. If that were the case, we are all collaborating to gather information here at Candlekeep which makes us an organized spy ring.
Food for thought....
Good Hunting!
edit: added link |
Edited by - Wolfhound75 on 09 Dec 2011 14:03:13 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 14:02:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
In my vocabulary, all the names mentioned above are spies.
Since that's what the creator called James Bond, that's probably fine. Just be aware that what they do has very little to do with what real spies do.
This is similar to how the characters in many bad action movies are called 'cops', but do not actually do anything that real cops do. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 14:13:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
In my vocabulary, all the names mentioned above are spies.
Since that's what the creator called James Bond, that's probably fine. Just be aware that what they do has very little to do with what real spies do.
You are correct and wrong at the same time. I would love to elaborate on this further, but such attempt would shed too much light on the nature of my work.
Just be careful in your assumptions, especially if you yourself do not engage in espionage. Or do you? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 16:03:13
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Wow, somehow this post about a minute issue not worth fighting about turned into an actual "no, you're stupid!" argument. Huh.
Anyway, my post above comes largely out of the fact that "as a writer, that's what I would have done." Names, after all, have power, and alluding to a concept or character you want to reflect imbues your character with some of that power as well. Also, in general, writers tend to weave in allusions to other works the better to offer homages to other writers. I myself am totally guilty of both of these (Downshadow alone contains homages to Ed, Elaine, Bob, Paul, Steven, James Davis, Jess Lebow, and so on).
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 15:27:56
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I heard a rumor that upon the conception of Mission Impossible, the protagonist's name was supposed to be Jake Blaze. But they thought having another JB would make the people associate the character with James Bond. Well, not that people would need another JB initials for them to associate spy/secret agent characters with James Bond.
---
Side note: Anyone watched MI4: Ghost Protocol? I think it's decent. Lots of action with a rather convincing plot. I'm not a Tom Cruise fan. (He's old, and looks like it.) But he's a good actor, and he played Ethan Hunt well.
One of the reasons I watched the movie is Jeremy Renner. I'm a great fan of the Bourne series. And having learned that Matt Damon is not going to be in the next film, The Bourne Legacy, I was very disappointed. Renner will replace him, though he'd be playing a different character, just in case Damon comes back. In MI4, Renner showed a good performance, almost good enough to steal the limelight from Cruise. So, maybe, just maybe, there's hope for the next Bourne film. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 16 Dec 2011 23:13:59 |
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What's with J.B.?
