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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 13:06:46
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What do you think are the limits of power of this kind of spellpower?
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You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 15:48:30
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Theoretically? None.
Practically? Depends entirely upon how many high mages you have, and how willing they are to sacrifice their lives.
Remember, this is magic that shattered multiple worlds, imprisoned gods, drove an entire race insane, and pulled parts of the Outer Planes to the Prime. Heavy hitter doesn't even begin to describe it. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 16:02:21
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| Deity *G* is only limit. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 19:21:00
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I now find myself wondering if it would be possible, via High Magic, for several (like, a few hundred, at least) High Mages to combine and form a new deity...
In fact, that strikes me as a fun idea: perhaps several Vyshaanti High Mages were imprisoned before they could do this. And now, somehow, they're back and must be kept from trying again...  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Dec 2011 19:22:26 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 21:01:53
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| Well, the biggest piece of High Magic ever cast sundered the mega-continent, and pulled a piece of Arvandor onto the Prime Material. The Seldarine interfered to stop it from getting too out of hand, so I assume it can do even greater things. I assume the rest of the Faerunian Gods were angry beyond belief, and that the Elves never got punishment for their folly is simply baffling. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 22:24:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
Well, the biggest piece of High Magic ever cast sundered the mega-continent, and pulled a piece of Arvandor onto the Prime Material. The Seldarine interfered to stop it from getting too out of hand, so I assume it can do even greater things. I assume the rest of the Faerunian Gods were angry beyond belief, and that the Elves never got punishment for their folly is simply baffling.
Maybe they did, and that's why the race is in decline... It could also explain why the Banishment affected all dark elves, and not just the evil ones... |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 23:19:33
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| On the other hand, most of the other Torillian deities weren't there at the time. Humans were still living in caves, the sarrukh were gone and the World Serpent splintered, etc. About the only other major races around were the dragons and giants, who already didn't like the elves, but who had already been decimated by the ascendant elves. And the dwarves, of course. I imagine the dwarves weren't all that happy. And come to think about it, the default view of dwarves for elves to this day is suspicion. Maybe that's why. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 23:55:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I now find myself wondering if it would be possible, via High Magic, for several (like, a few hundred, at least) High Mages to combine and form a new deity...
Quite possibly. I mean, we can consider the High Magic ritual that returns Rhymanthiin as an example of a potential upper limit to the ancient arcane practice.
Now, couple that with what Steven Schend once said about there being quite a few High Mages who had 15 millennia to think on High Magic and what things to do with it... and some very intriguing possibilities suggest themselves.
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8031 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 00:37:21
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quote:
Wooly Rupert
I now find myself wondering if it would be possible, via High Magic, for several (like, a few hundred, at least) High Mages to combine and form a new deity...
This question is clearly being framed from a human perspective, not an elven one. As I recall, a certain human with nearly limitless power attempted very much this very thing by casting Karsus's avatar ... and that didn't really work out so well.
This leads me to think that one of the following must be true:
Elven High Magic is inferior to 12th-level arcs, ie: limited in practical spell effects to 11th-level or less. This power-cap could be naturally inherent or could be artificially imposed by elven deities.
Elven High Mages have already tried this in the distant past, and perhaps it didn't work out well for them either.
Elven High Mages would never dare to do anything of the sort. It's utterly unimaginable and incompatible with their Jedi philosophy, it's the sort of thing those gauche little human magelings would attempt. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8031 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 01:06:13
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Well, elves have been known for revisionism before. Taking steps to ensure that the forbidden knowledge is erased from memory, etc etc ... but where does that line end? Even the eldest surviving elves might have been taught revised histories passed to them from elders who didn't know any better. So perhaps a cabal of elven high mages did indeed ascend, replacing the original elven deities, banishing or killing them and erasing them from history ... now we only know of Corellon and the Seldarine, and what they have taught us for aeons.
I'm not saying this is necessarily true, nor even at all likely. But I am saying that elves like to go big or go home, that if they had a magical means to attain divinity then they likely wouldn't be content with displacing some minor deities to install their foot in the divine doorway - they'd flat out seize and replace the entire pantheon all at once. In my opinion. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 01:35:51
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| I think "go big or go home" does seem to be the unofficial motto of high magic. Good way to phrase it. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 02:53:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
What do you think are the limits of power of this kind of spellpower?
Depends on the whim of the deity of magic...or Ao. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 03:29:38
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| Even AO serves a greater power. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 03:37:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Even AO serves a greater power.
Yes. The one simply named 'The Master.'
That ultimately it depends on the deities/greater powers which spell/ritual to work makes sense. That is precisely the reason Mystra 2.0 and 3.0 placed restrictions on the Weave. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 05:05:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Wooly Rupert
I now find myself wondering if it would be possible, via High Magic, for several (like, a few hundred, at least) High Mages to combine and form a new deity...
This question is clearly being framed from a human perspective, not an elven one. As I recall, a certain human with nearly limitless power attempted very much this very thing by casting Karsus's avatar ... and that didn't really work out so well.
This leads me to think that one of the following must be true:
Elven High Magic is inferior to 12th-level arcs, ie: limited in practical spell effects to 11th-level or less. This power-cap could be naturally inherent or could be artificially imposed by elven deities.
Elven High Mages have already tried this in the distant past, and perhaps it didn't work out well for them either.
Elven High Mages would never dare to do anything of the sort. It's utterly unimaginable and incompatible with their Jedi philosophy, it's the sort of thing those gauche little human magelings would attempt.
Karsus was trying to steal the power of another deity, though -- and he might still be around if he'd not picked the one deity he shouldn't have...
But this isn't the same thing, I think. Instead of one person arrogantly stealing divine power, I'm thinking of several (hundreds, as I suggested) combining their minds and magic into one entity.
It is Realms canon that there are single entities that were once several different entities -- I'm just proposing stepping that up a notch.
It could be readily argued that things like the Killing Storm or the creation of Evermeet took godlike power -- so what's to stop that godlike power from being used to make a new god?
Besides, I'm not suggesting that any elven deities used to be a large number of High Mages... I'm suggesting that some of the same minds that gave us the Killing Storm might think seeking out divinity is a good idea, and would need to be stopped (assuming their continued existence could be explained). They wouldn't need to succeed -- even a failure, on that scale, could be catastrophic. Thus, the goal is to keep them from trying. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 05:15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Wooly Rupert
I now find myself wondering if it would be possible, via High Magic, for several (like, a few hundred, at least) High Mages to combine and form a new deity...
Elven High Mages would never dare to do anything of the sort. It's utterly unimaginable and incompatible with their Jedi philosophy, it's the sort of thing those gauche little human magelings would attempt.
To every rule, there is always an exception. Every ideal has its flaws. Every group (as often the case), has its black sheep. To say that all elves think and believe the same is...well, incorrect. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 06:55:07
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| It's quite possible the Seldarine are ascended mortals. After all, we know the Elves came from Faerie, but we don't know their history on that plane. The novel Evermeet suggest Elven history goes back for aeons on that plane. |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2011 : 06:30:18
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Elven psychology in my opinion will not approve of creation of new deity via High Magic. I wondered about this when I thought about one notion.
Dark elves got their place in elven society and were given access to High Magic. Let's speak hypothetically that they increased their population and perfected it to the same degree as other mages. Would they try to return their most favored patron, Eilistraee? I thought about it, maybe it can be made possible with her being lesser deity? |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8031 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2011 : 06:58:26
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| The 2E Tome of Magic introduced a Quest spell (something like divine "high magic") which, when simultaneously cast by seven extraordinarily high level and perfectly faithful priests, would transform them all into an avatar of their deity. The priests just became vessels to the deity's wishes; it could simply go away in annoyance (and punish them severely for their impudence), or hang around to accomplish whatever goals it chose, it could destroy them on a whim or it could persist indefinitely until their mortal frames were burned to husks from overexposure to pure divinity. Not a spell to be cast lightly. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2011 : 19:22:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I now find myself wondering if it would be possible, via High Magic, for several (like, a few hundred, at least) High Mages to combine and form a new deity...
Quite possibly. I mean, we can consider the High Magic ritual that returns Rhymanthiin as an example of a potential upper limit to the ancient arcane practice.
Now, couple that with what Steven Schend once said about there being quite a few High Mages who had 15 millennia to think on High Magic and what things to do with it... and some very intriguing possibilities suggest themselves.
The deity of vampires (Kanchelsis) is hinted at having elvish lineage. Who knows, maybe he was using high magic involving blood and something went very wrong. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2011 : 20:57:03
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As elven high magic is effectively epic arcane magic fueled by some divine aid I see the limits are bound to the skill of the wielder (namely their knowldege of the arcane, the planes, spellcraft and the divines). The Seldarine are both an enabling and limiting factor though; one can see them jinxing or boosting the casting of certain high magic spells through out the Realms' history.
If the Seldarine approve of the removal of a god they'd gladly aid the casting (as seen in the Lady Penitant where Kiriansalee is nixed in the casting of a high magic ritual). But when a member of the Seldarine would become jeopordised they'd smite the offending elf into oblivion for their transgression. I believe that Lord Karsus (the boardmember) once suggested that Lolth sometimes finds a way to influence the casting of major high magic rituals aswell, and has done so during the casting of the Dark Descent ritual.
I think most elves wouldn't WANT to become a god, as their fey origins give them an inherent dislike for deities that are so far disconnected from Fearie or the natural world. Perhaps a revisionist pious archpriest would want divinity and a newly designed Arvandor, seperate from Leratians place in the astral, but such a soul would be hardpressed to find support/worship amongst the Fair Folk. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 11:11:18
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As I recall reading, the Nether Scrolls, held almost an unlimited amount of arcane lore, and one could keep uncovering new information, from those scrolls. I would believe that if a High Mage had 10-15k years of life and access to these scrolls, they could discover the way to create a crystal sphere... Theoretically.
But Elven High Magic has an upper limit, but that limit is spells and effects that would be categorized as level 15 I believe.
Just some thoughts
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8031 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 19:35:55
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| Elven High Mages did indeed have access to Nether Scrolls for millennia. They transmuted one of the two complete sets of Nether Scrolls, the "older" one, into the living Quess'Ar'Teranthvar ("Golden Grove of Hidden Knowledge"). Studying this fantastic tree would reveal the full knowledge contained within the Nether Scrolls, although it was presented in a more intuitive and organic manner than in the original scroll-format. It was said that Elven High Mages could perceive a "sixth" section of magic previously unrevealed within the old scrolls, one which could only be seen through mastering the complex interactions of all five standard sets of Nether magic. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Light
Learned Scribe
Australia
233 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 05:55:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Elven High Mages did indeed have access to Nether Scrolls for millennia. They transmuted one of the two complete sets of Nether Scrolls, the "older" one, into the living Quess'Ar'Teranthvar ("Golden Grove of Hidden Knowledge"). Studying this fantastic tree would reveal the full knowledge contained within the Nether Scrolls, although it was presented in a more intuitive and organic manner than in the original scroll-format. It was said that Elven High Mages could perceive a "sixth" section of magic previously unrevealed within the old scrolls, one which could only be seen through mastering the complex interactions of all five standard sets of Nether magic.
What is this "sixth" section of magic? High Magic? |
"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga) |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8031 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 09:15:31
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It is only vaguely described, in much the same wording that I used above, in the Arcane Age: Netheril, Cormanthyr, Myth Drannor (2E lore) sourcebooks. This "sixth" section might be the fundamentals of High Magic, it might be some other form of magical manipulation which cannot be understood without first mastering High Magic.
I'm inclined to believe the latter, since if this section was about describing High Magic then I'd expect others (namely the Netherese archwizards, at least those who'd already mastered all five other sections) would be able to cast some version of High Magic themselves. The ambiguity of the source wording could just be setting fluff, it could simply indicate these lofty elves can see glowy lifestrands and connections in ways lowly PC mages cannot possibly comprehend. "It was said" is also a great preface for dispersing legends, fabrications, and elaborations (and planting seeds for future sourcebooks) instead of giving solid crunch, workable facts, and applicable game rules.
[Edit]
This does open up some questions, since High Magic is supposedly entirely independant of Weave-based magic. In the Arcane Age rules an Elven High Mage dedicates his memorization to one or the other at any given time, not both, since they are not directly compatible. Does this mean the Nether Scrolls contain knowledge of magic more fundamental than the Weave? Or does it mean that the High Mages are so truly gifted they can perceive meanings beyond what is written in the Scrolls? Or does it mean that the Scrolls were actually improved when transformed into a living (sentient?) format? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Dec 2011 09:31:42 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 12:21:21
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Well the Nether Scrolls contains information on all the magical traditions of the denizens of Fearun from around -20k DR.
But was the weave not present at that time?
Also, if Elven High Magic functions outside the weave, then there is absolutely no limit and we must perceive this to be a power close to the power of forging the essence of the universe. (The Phlogiston)
So I believe!!!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 19:07:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Well the Nether Scrolls contains information on all the magical traditions of the denizens of Fearun from around -20k DR.
But was the weave not present at that time?
Also, if Elven High Magic functions outside the weave, then there is absolutely no limit and we must perceive this to be a power close to the power of forging the essence of the universe. (The Phlogiston)
So I believe!!!
In D&D, the phlogiston is just the rather flammable space betwixt crystal spheres. It's not a source of any kind of power, unless you have an open flame. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 01:08:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Well the Nether Scrolls contains information on all the magical traditions of the denizens of Fearun from around -20k DR.
But was the weave not present at that time?
Also, if Elven High Magic functions outside the weave, then there is absolutely no limit and we must perceive this to be a power close to the power of forging the essence of the universe. (The Phlogiston)
So I believe!!!
In D&D, the phlogiston is just the rather flammable space betwixt crystal spheres. It's not a source of any kind of power, unless you have an open flame.
There are non-canon options, however, presented on the Beyond the Moons website, which utilise the Phlogiston as a potential power source for groundling realms.
I'm not entirely sold on the concept myself, but I do like the idea of harnessing the Phlogiston for terrestrial initiatives. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8031 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 01:31:07
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I can easily imagine proficient alchemists being able to break materials down into phlogiston, or to painstakingly extract trace amounts of phlogiston from them. Why not have burbling lab apparatus filled with a circulation of dangerously concentrated phlogiston, or mix phlog with rarified and exotic elements to produce all sorts of wondrous substances?
Deities are said to have transmuted phlogiston into their first creations, the crystal spheres, the worlds within them. It must be much easier for an alchemist-mage to shape phlog into his own smaller creations, especially since he's got most of the materials and power sources (and magic) components already created for him.
I would be hesitant to allow phlog to be used in the most immediately obvious applications, weaponry and explosives. This could be easily managed by making phlogiston dangerously volatile, or tremendously rare and expensive. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 04:42:48
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| Keep in mind, though, that per Spelljammer canon, the phlogiston cannot exist inside of a crystal sphere. Even if an alchemist thinks to trap some in a sealed container, as soon as he moves into a crystal sphere, he's got nothing. |
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Topic |
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Elven High Magic limits.
