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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7981 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 05:27:20
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| Restoring a god who was erased from time invites some interesting possibilities to the fiction ... |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 05:33:15
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I’m reminded of the Dread Rings. Perhaps the purpose of such bastions of power is not exactly to destroy/unmake the world, but to rewind Toril’s [or most likely the entire Crystal Sphere’s] timeframe so that it goes back to the time when no one yet inhabited it, when there were no gods around yet. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7981 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 06:05:23
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lol, Dennis. Not every scroll is about Dread Rings, Szass Tam, Zulkirs, Netheril, and Liches. There are still a few cool subjects which stand apart.  |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 06:12:27
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Since this is my thread, I'm entitled to relate it to anything I want.
Seriously, though, I wish more will be revealed about the Dread Rings. Come to think of it, shouldn't Richard have written a short story in Realms of the Dead featuring Fastrin and his first dabbling with the Dread Rings? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7981 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 06:25:03
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quote:
Dennis
Perhaps the purpose of [the Dread Rings] is not exactly to destroy/unmake the world, but to rewind Toril’s [or most likely the entire Crystal Sphere’s] timeframe so that it goes back to the time when no one yet inhabited it, when there were no gods around yet.
Well then, to continue this path of speculation ... I assume that the Dread Rings were designed by someone, even if this designer existed before the Realms (and possibly Ao himself) did. So the designer might have originated at this "rewind point" in history, or at the least have some means of reaching it through temporal manipulations, or came from some other world/place which entirely predates the Realms. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 06:37:27
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Given his vast psionic power and superior intellect, one would think Vhostym should have found a way to rewind his body’s time, take it back to the years before it started to decay. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Huerin Illance
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 12:57:31
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quote:
That said, what I removed from this discussion was very much out of line.
And if I was so obsessed with controlling information, as has been stated, I'd not have left links in place to specific pages, or the specific quotes on those pages
This is a lie; which, by extension, makes Wooley Rupert a liar. It is clear, from my first post, that something is missing from a post above; specificly, all the context and the links.
Another example of Moderator spin doctoring. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 13:44:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I’m reminded of the Dread Rings. Perhaps the purpose of such bastions of power is not exactly to destroy/unmake the world, but to rewind Toril’s [or most likely the entire Crystal Sphere’s] timeframe so that it goes back to the time when no one yet inhabited it, when there were no gods around yet.
I think you secretely want to be reincarnated as a Thayan |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 13:46:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Since this is my thread, I'm entitled to relate it to anything I want.
Seriously, though, I wish more will be revealed about the Dread Rings. Come to think of it, shouldn't Richard have written a short story in Realms of the Dead featuring Fastrin and his first dabbling with the Dread Rings?
I would have enjoyed that more than the Baeris story |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 13:46:24
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Um, Huerin, I perfectly understand your concerns. But may I suggest that you address them personally to the Mods via PM? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 13:48:52
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I’m reminded of the Dread Rings. Perhaps the purpose of such bastions of power is not exactly to destroy/unmake the world, but to rewind Toril’s [or most likely the entire Crystal Sphere’s] timeframe so that it goes back to the time when no one yet inhabited it, when there were no gods around yet.
I think you secretely want to be reincarnated as a Thayan
Nope. I'll be taking over Telamont's position once our bargain is up. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Huerin Illance
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 13:49:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Um, Huerin, I perfectly understand your concerns. But may I suggest that you address them personally to the Mods via PM?
If the Mods are going to lie in public, then I feel compelled to address it similarly. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 13:51:46
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Since this is my thread, I'm entitled to relate it to anything I want.
Seriously, though, I wish more will be revealed about the Dread Rings. Come to think of it, shouldn't Richard have written a short story in Realms of the Dead featuring Fastrin and his first dabbling with the Dread Rings?
I would have enjoyed that more than the Baeris story
As would I. Though that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy Serpentsong---because I certainly did. And you don't have to say you didn't enjoy it at all, because I know you never like bards in the first place. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 13:54:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Since this is my thread, I'm entitled to relate it to anything I want.
Seriously, though, I wish more will be revealed about the Dread Rings. Come to think of it, shouldn't Richard have written a short story in Realms of the Dead featuring Fastrin and his first dabbling with the Dread Rings?
I would have enjoyed that more than the Baeris story
As would I. Though that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy Serpentsong---because I certainly did. And you don't have to say you didn't enjoy it at all, because I know you never like bards in the first place.
lol i even go so far as to slay all of the bards i find in Skyrim.  after i save my game of course |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 14:04:09
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Since this is my thread, I'm entitled to relate it to anything I want.
Seriously, though, I wish more will be revealed about the Dread Rings. Come to think of it, shouldn't Richard have written a short story in Realms of the Dead featuring Fastrin and his first dabbling with the Dread Rings?
I would have enjoyed that more than the Baeris story
As would I. Though that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy Serpentsong---because I certainly did. And you don't have to say you didn't enjoy it at all, because I know you never like bards in the first place.
lol i even go so far as to slay all of the bards i find in Skyrim. after i save my game of course
Ha! Milil will send his avatars to hunt you down!
On topic, I wonder, has Larloch ever dabbled in chronomancy? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 15 Nov 2011 15:37:36 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 18:11:59
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I mentioned that the Chronomancer is like a Time-Lord, but what if he was THE Timelord? Like Immortus from Marvel Comics? Perhaps there is even a council or an entire race that monitors time itself and keeps things 'on-track' (otherwise alternate realities would constantly be born, which could possibly put a strain on the multiverse).
I no longer own the Chronomancer tome, but wasn't there a group like that? Isn't there also some sort of outsider who goes after people who mess with time? I would also think the Modrons might have something to do with keeping things 'in order'.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I’m reminded of the Dread Rings. Perhaps the purpose of such bastions of power is not exactly to destroy/unmake the world, but to rewind Toril’s [or most likely the entire Crystal Sphere’s] timeframe so that it goes back to the time when no one yet inhabited it, when there were no gods around yet.
I have stated elsewhere that I think the 'Dread Rings' are just another PoP (Place of Power), related to Fey Rings, Pools & Wells, Elemental nodes, etc...
Basically a conduit that hooks into some other plane and taps into it's energy. Not knowing anything about the Dread Rings, my highly uniformed best-guess would that it taps into the Shadowfel (which I DO misspell intentionally) and stores Umbral (shadow) energy.
What you described, however is a PoP that taps into Temporal Prime - we have at least one canon site like that (the isle of Lurath in the SoFS). There are several gates that are time-oriented, but I think those are man-made (mortal-built) conduits, and therefor fall into another category. Although I think 'shadowy' is a better fit, a time-connection would be equally interesting (reducing the surrounding region to it's primitive, antidiluvian state).
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Restoring a god who was erased from time invites some interesting possibilities to the fiction ...
Agreed.
Something similar was done with Finder - I wonder if there is much difference between erasing the memory of a god, and erasing the god itself? I suppose as long as the god is aware of its own existence, it might be able to sustain itself in a coma-like state. That might actually be a good definition of a Vestige.
Which now gives rise to another related question, but one that is well outside of the purview of this thread. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2011 04:15:42 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 19:10:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Huerin Illance
quote:
That said, what I removed from this discussion was very much out of line.
And if I was so obsessed with controlling information, as has been stated, I'd not have left links in place to specific pages, or the specific quotes on those pages
This is a lie; which, by extension, makes Wooley Rupert a liar. It is clear, from my first post, that something is missing from a post above; specificly, all the context and the links.
Another example of Moderator spin doctoring.
Yup, such a lie. That's not at all a URL in this quote, from 14 Nov 2011, 04:14:16 --
quote:
Originally posted by Huerin Illance
I think one of the Moderators is deleting my posts because he or she engages in situational ethics and a heavy hand at controlling the information posted on these boards. Anyway, on the thread linked below, a poster, Acolyte Thirteen is playing an Imaskari Chronomancer.
forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14033&whichpage=17
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 19:11:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I mentioned that the Chronomancer is like a Time-Lord, but what if he was THE Timelord? Like Immortus from Marvel Comics? Perhaps their is even a council or an entire race that monitors time itself and keeps things 'on-track' (otherwise alternate realities would constantly be born, which would could possibly put a strain on the multiverse).
I no longer own the Chronomancer tome, but wasn't there a group like that? Isn't there also some sort of outsider who goes after people who mess with time?
I have the tome, though it's not handy. I've not read it since it came out, but I do seem to recall the things you mention here. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 00:25:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I mentioned that the Chronomancer is like a Time-Lord, but what if he was THE Timelord? Like Immortus from Marvel Comics? Perhaps their is even a council or an entire race that monitors time itself and keeps things 'on-track' (otherwise alternate realities would constantly be born, which would could possibly put a strain on the multiverse).
I no longer own the Chronomancer tome, but wasn't there a group like that? Isn't there also some sort of outsider who goes after people who mess with time? I would also think the Modrons might have something to do with keeping things 'in order'.
You're referring to the Guardians.
They have pledged to preserve the Temporal Prime and the timestreams in that order.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 04:52:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I’m reminded of the Dread Rings. Perhaps the purpose of such bastions of power is not exactly to destroy/unmake the world, but to rewind Toril’s [or most likely the entire Crystal Sphere’s] timeframe so that it goes back to the time when no one yet inhabited it, when there were no gods around yet.
Not knowing anything about the Dread Rings, my highly uniformed best-guess would that it taps into the Shadowfel (which I DO misspell intentionally) and stores Umbral (shadow) energy.
That's very unlikely. Szass Tam didn't dabble in shadow magic. Hence, he could not create bastions/wells of power that tap on a kind of magic he does not understand.
When the Spellplague hit Thay and rendered him practically vulnerable, he cast a world window that enable him to see the condition of both the Weave and the Shadow Weave. He once considered studying shadow magic, but upon seeing that both weaves suffered the same fate, he banished the thought, and instead summoned the Black Hand.
If the Dread Rings do tap magic, I would say it's anywhere other than Shadowfell or the planes of existence where shadow magic is predominantly present. Perhaps all the Elemental Planes---the concentrated, combined energies from them would grant him more than enough nukes to obliterate the world/s and the gods. However, I'm still inclined to think that one possible purpose of the Dread Rings is to reset Time. Or, create a whole new ALTERNATE UNIVERSE where the caster [Szass Tam] becomes the overgod. Which would also imply that Szass Tam himself is a chronomancer. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 15:47:54
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Szass Tam also was able to do magic normally when the rest of the world could no longer do so, THUS, he must have found a different way of casting spells then he previously used. Arcane magic no longer worked - whatever deal he made with Bane must have tapped into something else. There is no way possible he was still using Weave-based magic.
You are applying pre-4e rules to a post-spellplague situation.
EDIT: However, I have to admit I know next to nothing about the true situation, so he may have been dabbling with the rings before his (Weave-based) magic failed.
Either way, normal magic-users were ALWAYS able to use shadow magic, way before anyone ever heard of the Shadoweave, and even after it it was created in 3e (from a meta-gaming perspective). You DO NOT have to be a shadow-caster to use shadow magic; that is a common misconception. Necromancers don't even need to know about the Shadoweave for their spells to work. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2011 15:51:52 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 16:02:57
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Incorrect. He still used Weave-based magic. The Weave wasn't obliterated; it simply unraveled upon the death of its guardian goddess. Magic still worked within the hundred years after the SP. Only, a wizard had to work around certain rules and certain limitations to be able to cast spells. It was this knowledge that Bane gave to the lich. The casting took longer than usual, but it did work. And that's the same knowledge that Szass Tam "shared" with his mind-linked Red Wizard lackeys so they could win and put an end to the 110-year Civil War. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 16 Nov 2011 16:14:40 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 19:12:48
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| Um... Maybe the discussion of Szassy should go to its own dedicated topic, and not continue diverting this one. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 20:12:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Um... Maybe the discussion of Szassy should go to its own dedicated topic, and not continue diverting this one.
We could be discussing paladins and Dennis would find a way to squeeze Szass Tam into the thread |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7981 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 23:48:13
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| Or we could ask how many Manshoons are capable of temporal manipulation or psionics - although that's just needlessly trollish lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 00:48:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Or we could ask how many Manshoons are capable of temporal manipulation or psionics - although that's just needlessly trollish lol.
In all seriousness, this is a topic I've tinkered around with -- mainly from the temporal perspective. I like the idea of a Manshoon clone seeking to manipulate the timestream in an effort to eliminate potential rivals. I mean, that's what the Manshoon Wars were about... "kill all the other clones!"
I've been fleshing out a more specific plotline, following Steven and Ed's thoughts on the subject. Specifically, from Ed:-
quote:
"The multiple clones, hidden all over the Realms (El has threatened Manshoon in published Realmslore that he knows where they all are), each have the levels, memories, etc. they had when created . . . so some of them are of FAR less power than 'more modern' Manshoons (so killing Manshoon DOES harm him). Manshoon adds new clones from time to time, but what happened with the Manshoon Wars was that all (or almost all) of the clones were awakened at once.
In this instance, I've played up the fact that Manshoon had been generating new clones. Then I've shifted a number of them to various crystal spheres [thinking, "the Realms isn't big enough for all these Manshoons"], with one popping up among the Black Robes on Krynn, another disguised as a Guvner of the Fraternity of Order in Sigil, and, several others masquerading elsewhere across the multiverse. Most are focused primarily on becoming "the one true Manshoon" of Realmspace and, thus, plot and scheme accordingly. However, events in other crystal spheres, like the Second Catalcysm on Krynn and the Faction War in Sigil somewhat disrupted the plans of those clones, so I've had to plot alternate pathways of scheming and conquest for them.
That's about as far as I've taken it, but it needs more work. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 17 Nov 2011 00:50:46 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 18:40:19
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The fact that Manshoon looks like a Doctor Doom knock-off (who wears armor AND casts magic, BTW), and that Kang the Conqueror is a descendant of Doom, and that Kangs from multiple timestreams banded together to form the Council of cross-time Kangs, and that Immortus - THE Timnelord (of Marvel comics) is the 'ultimate' Kang, just brings this entire discussion full-circle.
I decided that Manshoon might be the Torillian Kang - he just doesn't know it. If he did dabble in time, he would probably be stopped by the council (of other Kangs), so as to STOP creating more divergent time-streams. The Kangs don't want more Kangs, and even within their group there are sub-groups trying to eliminate the others. I distinctly remember Immortus and others 'fixing' time discrepancies to eliminate other kangs popping up.
Then again, Manshoon is more likely Toril's Doom, so some descendant of his would be a Kang (I theorized a daughter in 4e, awhile back on the WotC forums).
Falling back on my 'One World' theory, which is based in-part on Michael Moorcock's own Eternal Champion concept, each being has a counterpart on other worlds, even though on many of those worlds that counterpart may not exist, for whatever reason. It may be that Manshoon is trying to 'seed' other realities with himself, to build his power base. In fact, this may not even be the first time a Faerûnian attempted this - Manshoon may have gotten the idea from Bane (they have similar points of origin - the Moonsea north).
More trans-universal theories of mine - do with them what you will. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Nov 2011 18:42:17 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 19:06:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The fact that Manshoon looks like a Doctor Doom knock-off (who wears armor AND casts magic, BTW),
Since when does Manshoon look anything like Doom? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 23:55:07
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A dude who pretty much lives in his armor - sorry, that was my first impression of him when I first read about him, and it stuck. It doesn't matter what I have learned since then, I will always think of him as the Realm's Dr. Doom. Most folk who 'do magic' do not even wear armor, so finding Mages who practically live in theirs is rare enough for me to identify them together. Also, the whole "I want to rule because I know can do it better then anyone else" is the kernal of both of their personalities. They do not think they are evil - they think they should be in-charge. They are megalomaniacs.
I don't have a hard time seeing them as the same guy; I have a hard time seeing the differences.
Please - even their enemies look alike (Khelben/Doctor Strange). 
Here you go, compare - Doctor Doom with Manshoon. You can even throw this guy into the mix just for fun.
"Oh no!  It's a helmeted dude with mystical powers! It's Darth Mandoom!"
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Nov 2011 23:58:01 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 00:47:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
A dude who pretty much lives in his armor - sorry, that was my first impression of him when I first read about him, and it stuck. It doesn't matter what I have learned since then, I will always think of him as the Realm's Dr. Doom.
I think this is, partly, a mindset a great many folk hold because of the "newer" imagery of Manshoon wearing a mask in some 3e art.
But that's just artistic license. As Ed has said in the past:- " ... the gorget (which of course by its name should be a throat collar, and not any sort of mask) is okay as a distinctive look for ONE of the clones." |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ultear Milkovich [Mage of Time]
