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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 18:37:53
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EDIT: I realize this is a bit long, but please bear with my train of thought, because I feel it may prove a valuable solution moving forward.
I call this plane the Æthervale, but its not really new - its combination of other things mixed together, with some old ideas I hashed-out with Gray Richardson. Its the Border-Ethereal, which we haven't seen in awhile. Maybe 'magical chaos' disconnects it from a world for time... lots of ways we can spin that.
I was thinking more on what I proposed in my last post in the One Canon, One Story... thread, about turning the 'non-setting' into a psuedo-setting, or rather, a meta-setting (or part of one). If we took Nentir Vale (and any other material created for the non-setting in 4e) and shunted it all into the Border Ethereal, we create a universal adventure-area very much like a normal world, but like the Feywild and Shadowfel it can be reached from any setting. It becomes like the Mittlemarch of Moorcock mythos, or the 'Wood between the Worlds' from Ed and C.S. Lewis. It is already there - all I did was give it a shiny new paint-job (a Realmsian/D&D-ish name).
Basically, the Border Ethereal connects a world to the Ethereal plane (more on that later), and looks very much like the world you originate from. In the same way that the Feywild is a twisted reflection of a world, and the Shadowfel its shadow, the Æthervale is an echo of 'what might have been' - it represents the world in its pristine (un-sundered?) state.
Like I said, this concept isn't really new - it is in many works and settings; the ones I mentioned above, The Mists of Avalon, and many more. I am just trying to anchor it to D&D for 5e.
Taking this and the 'meta-setting' concept a step further, a long time ago Gray Richardson and I were discussing how to translate the SJ rules into 3e (and something more palatable). Most folks were really put-off by 'Elves in Space' (already done by Warhammer), and yet, 'sailing between the worlds' is an old fantasy trope. All we had to do is remove the 'space' from SJ to make it feel less like Scify.
We theorized that the Ethereal and Space were the same physical area. The area immediately around a planet (the atmosphere) coincides with the Border Ethereal, and can be reached from there. Once past the atmosphere into Arcane space, you are in the region of Wildspace, which is cotermonious with the Ethereal Plane. If you leave a world by physical/scientific means you enter normal space (and DIE), but if you leave by magic you actually enter the Ethereal plane as you cross out of the atmosphere (passing momentarily through a thin veil of the Border-ethereal). Ergo, you are not really 'sailing through space' as so many once thought, but rather, sailing the Ethereal Seas.
Going further, when you leave the Crystal Sphere you enter an area sages once (mistakenly) called "the deep Ethereal". The problem is, there is no such place. Nothing exists beyond the Crystal Sphere - the Ethereal seas only exist around the wolrds within a crystal Sphere. When you exit a crystal sphere you are really entering the Shadowfel (by default - theoretically you could enter the Feywild if you designed a ship to do so). In fact, the greatest secret of the Mercane (Arcane) is that the Helms do not use Arcane magic - they use Shadow Magic. Thats why they did not stop functioning in Realmspace when Mystryl/Mystra died.
And, as we know, you can 'sail' from one world (setting) to another through the Plane of Shadows. In 3e, this was the only way to do so; all Gray and I did was reconcile this to old lore by turning the Phlogiston into the Shadowfel. This is probably why any sort of fire (light-source) reacts violently within it. If this tweak in the lore bothers you, you could say the 'Phlogiston Sea' is a border-area of the Shadowfel itself - and area composed of Elemental Maelstrom and Shadow mixed. Whatever works for you.
So this combines several old ideas with several new ideas (and once again, I have to give a nod to Gray for his help with the part concerning the SJ lore), and allows us to use a more universal model for adventure modules going into 5e. Now, I am not saying I don't want to have FR-specific official adventures, but I think in this way they can re-capture some of the feel of 1e/OD&D, where folks didn't concern themselves so much about 'where' an adventure was 'supposed to be' set.
Æthervale (inspired by 'Nentir Vale') - learn it, love it, use it. 
I am placing this entire concept - from beginning to end - under the OGL license, and allow it to be used by anyone in any edition, and give my full permission for any portion of it to be reprinted elsewhere. Just please stay true to the concept, and don't try to chain it to any one setting or set of rules.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Aug 2012 03:09:29
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 18:20:40
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| LOL... maybe I should have posted this on the WotC forums... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 18:55:38
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I like it. I wish I had better feedback to give beyond that. Considering my at home Realms is different than published after 1380 DR, I will use it if DnDNext "fixes" enough that I just have to ignore 4E and then pick the timeline back up with 5th, I'll definitely use it.
Thanks! |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 23:17:25
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I just like the idea everyone can use the 'generic' D&D material, some of which is excellent (like Nentir Vale), and no-one could argue over which setting it is in. you create a 'universal canon' that doesn't subsume local canon.
The one caveat is that all the core deities have to have some semblance of power in every setting, even if they don't have a presence in that setting. For example, the Raven Queen has no canon presence in Faerûn, but that does not mean she isn't active in the Feywild and elsewhere, and those planes are canon to the Realms, ergo she becomes canon indirectly (as part of the 'greater D&D' cosmology).
Just because a god isn't active on a world should not mean that they do not exist in regards to that world. The concept of 'interloper gods' has been around for awhile, and we had plenty of them in 2e, that FR PCs could possibly interact with (via PS/SJ/RL), even though they never stepped foot inside Realmspace.
So, instead of a mantra of 'one rules to rule them all' as we had in 4e, we should have a 'one cosmology to rule them all' mantra for 5e. Make EVERY setting part of D&D by default. Create possibilities, not walls. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Portella
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
247 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 23:57:23
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| Great idea mark, very interesting. Thats the sort thing they should be doing lets hope it goes that way. In general anything that uses the older stuff from the great settings SJ, PS and marrying it with the good parts of the new is a plus. |
Purple you say?!
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2012 : 00:18:12
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| BRING IT ON! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2012 : 15:18:11
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| Agreed that the mists fit better than empty space for spelljamming, but I see it a bit differently, the fey plane and shadow should have remained demiplanes. Other than the name, it's nothing new, Dark Sun already had the Grey as the Border Ethereal, Birthright the Shadow World, etc., so FR's 3e version of Shadow should originate from the Ethereal, instead of being the first and only source for the Great Tree. Basically the Wall of Color in the Ethereal should parallel the wall of the crystal sphere, not the edge of the atmosphere imo. |
Edited by - Quale on 04 Aug 2012 15:19:04 |
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Portella
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
247 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2012 : 17:01:23
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| hmm yeah I get what you are saying and could not disagree with you |
Purple you say?!
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2012 : 08:10:29
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| I mean you could sail in the Border Ethereal, in PS it's called the shallows of the Waveless Sea, there's usually more traffic along the coasts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2012 : 20:56:31
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Well, that was the idea. To marry concepts from various settings and editions together to give us one uniform set of lore to use across the board.
I've given this more thought, and I realized that a lot of Mystra (Known World/OD&D) lore could be folded into the Æthervale concept (along with the 4e 'non-setting' material, as I stated earlier). Their are lots of great things in that old setting, and it would be cool if they could dust-it-off in this fashion and give it new life. I think Blackmoor makes an ideal location within the Æthervale, because it canonically touches upon several official settings. They could always fast-forward the timeline some more (for that world, NOT FR!) in order to tweak it to become the Æthervale. They've done this before - various KW (Mystara) products take place in different time periods.
A setting that touches upon all other settings - I think Mystara is perfect (because it is a bit different from how the others work). I also briefly consider Aebrynis (Birthright), but that has its own planer lore and works better as a setting deeply connected to the transitive planes.
In another thread I mentioned the MtG planer lore, and then it struck me - it would be great to start weaving some of that into 5e as well (my meta-setting concept for D&D)*. Blend that with the PS lore and its pure win. Instead of DMs having to start new campaigns for different flavors, they could just take jaunts into different worlds and continue from there. Campaigns can become more on-going in a way they never could before (well, they could, but most folks didn't bother - they just started new campaigns when the old ones wound-down).
And even though this sounds more like a D&D concept then an FR one, it actually ties directly into a major FR concept - the travel between worlds, and The Road of Stars & Shadows, which I feel really needs to be played-up in 5e. There is no reason to change a single world, or make it smaller, when you can go most anywhere just by 'turning the right corner'.
*EDIT: I just did a tiny bit of research, and found-out that the 'place between the worlds' in MtG is called the Æther - hows that for serendipitous? (I swear I didn't know that until just now, but the 'Æther' is an old concept anyway, so its not odd that I came up with that name as well.) Its also called the 'Blind Eternities'. With some minor tweaking, this easily gets folded into my Æthervale/meta-setting concept. Most people merely travel through it (the deep ethereal), but others stop in the 'borderlands' and interact with its denizens. Just about all old and abandoned D&D lore can be shoe-horned into this region. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Aug 2012 21:06:51 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 01:04:56
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| MT, I like that idea, and I may be able to use it to tie my own HB world more firmly into D&D lore, particularly a certain planar portal nexus I had created to explain certain features being present in my world. (The nexus is a set of doors to other D&D worlds- all the five major settings: Greyhawk, Faerun, Ravenloft, Krynn, and Mystara/Athas {I hadn't yet decided which one the last portal connects to, since both worlds were about equal in setting detail}.) Having those border ethereal connections via Shadowfel/Phlogiston helps. I already had Spelljamming connections, so this makes that tie in better. Thanks! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 16:53:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, that was the idea. To marry concepts from various settings and editions together to give us one uniform set of lore to use across the board.
Blend that with the PS lore and its pure win. Instead of DMs having to start new campaigns for different flavors, they could just take jaunts into different worlds and continue from there.
well, what was stopping the DMs from doing that before?
all right, they should marry SJ, PS, and all other isolated cosmologies, and clean up all the mess, Mystara I think also has Nightmare and Vortex as transitive planes. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 19:56:11
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I think the Nightmare plane became the Nightmare Lands in RL. Its pretty easy to reconcile the two - one world's plane is another world's domain (because from a human point of view, without modern forms of transportation, a thousand miles may as well be 'infinite').
I personally stuck my Nightmare Realms in Faerie (which I broke into three sections). Someday I'll have to re-visit that. I think cosmological 'maps' are just diagrams of the connections between planes/realms, as seen through the eyes of mortals. Just because a cosmology shows something a certain way doesn't mean that's the way it is. In fact, I truly doubt anyone - including deities and primordials, etc - know the truth of things.
If the universe is a massive illusion, which can be altered by belief, then the more powerful believers control more of how it is set-up, and in the great cosmic scheme of things, I think deities are actually pretty low on the list. For instance, Ao says there's a Cynosure, so there is. The deities can't disbelieve it (although Mystra/Midnight came close, when she 'peaked behind the curtain' in Prince of Lies).
This is probably why 'insane gods' are so problematic for pantheons - their insanity helps them overcome part of what shackles them. Cyric railed against Ao (and some say he managed to surprise Ao) with a display of power; I think thats what makes him dangerous - he doesn't accept his limitations.
This is why different worlds and even different cultures on various worlds can have completely different cosmologies, and still have them all be one and the same. If you believe in spelljamming, then thats what you see and what you are doing. If you think you are sailing the 'Ethereal seas', then THAT is what you are doing.
Putting this into a more scientific context, it goes along with Apophenia/Pareidolia. You 'see' (experience) that which you expect to see. Mortal minds cannot comprehend other planes of existence. In fact, they may not even be able to fully comprehend the Prime Material. Thus, mortal minds take in what information it can and makes sense of it, by putting it through the filter of our accumulated data. By 'accumulated data' I mean our experiences; our memories are further tainted by Apophenia, and our 'knowledge' is something learned from others who based their observations on things experienced under apophenia, thus perpetuating the illusion.
In other words, if an entire planet believes something to be true, then it is true, unless a sentience more powerful then their combined awareness believed otherwise.
But now I'm deep in the realm of RW paranormal, so I'll back off from that. All I am saying here is that if we apply this to D&D, then its fairly easy to marry 'conflicting' lore together as we move forward. there is a big difference between 'the truth', and what we believe to be 'the truth'. Thus, you completely disarm canon (like a bomb waiting to go off). Canon is meaningless because canon can change (just as in our RW, new 'breakthroughs' in various fields change our own understanding of things).
This means canon never really conflicts, because what is true 'in the moment' may not be true tomorrow. Aumanator is the 'sun god' because everyone knows he is. If everyone believed something different, then that would change. It wouldn't change the fact that he was the sun god while they believed it.
As to how this relates to FR canon - I think this may be part of the answer to the Dawn Cataclysm. Somehow, Lathander changed the way people believed in something (just as that ritual caused people to forget about Kiaransalee). However, I don't think it turned out the way he wanted. This sort of magic is similar to elven High Magic, and can alter reality in such a way to destroy the caster (or make it so they never existed). This is why even gods avoid this type of magic - it has a high cost, and is fairly unpredictable (since you are diverging the timeline from what was meant to be). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Aug 2012 19:59:30 |
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Proposal: 'New' Plane
