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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Nov 2011 : 17:53:03
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Aren't gods supposed to be asexual? Isn't it that it's only their mere whims that make them choose to appear male or female so their worshipers could address them in the manner that is comprehensible to their limited, mortal minds?
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2011 : 18:03:42
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| I feel this is the case and have used this methoid in my Realms. It also makes it more resonable for certain deities to have different personas and followings among the various humanoid races. This also applies to races as well. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2011 : 18:15:20
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If they are indeed asexual, could their pure whim of choosing their sexuality have an underlying reason? Say, did Ao choose to appear male because of the two sexes, it is generally considered the stronger? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2011 : 18:37:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Aren't gods supposed to be asexual? Isn't it that it's only their mere whims that make them choose to appear male or female so their worshipers could address them in the manner that is comprehensible to their limited, mortal minds?
Actually no, not all deities are supposed to be asexual. Some deities strongly manifest a Mother portfolio and others the male virility aspects. Aries a God of War, Demeter a Goddess of birth and nature. These two are quick examples of male and female centric deities. There are many examples in FR where clerics must be of one gender.
The fact that a deity can change gender does not matter as to their own gender orientation. Yes Venus might appear to a male mortal in a male form, however she still is very female orientated. Some deities clearly appear gender neutral, Corellon comes to mind as androgynous, however still has a more male aspect then gender neutral.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 00:52:28
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I don't agree. We can see they reproduce, flirt with each other, and so forth.
Selvetarm is Vhaeraun's son.
Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are Lolth's children with Correlon.
Iyachtu Xvim is Bane's son and so forth. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 00:53:21
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I would think a deity's choice of gender is largely based on the expectations of those who sustain it with belief. Kentinel's examples are excellent, but might not apply, for instance, in societies where conflict is the dominion of matriarchal amazon-warriors or where virile patriarchal sky-god shamans are consulted for fertility blessings.
Insofar as perceptions about either gender being better in any particulars ... comparisons are unavoidable, as are comparitive strengths and weaknesses, regardless which gender is chosen. And these too are likely shaped as much by society as biology.
Don't forget that many deities ascended to their station from mortal origins. These might identify and perpetuate a preference for their original gender. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Nov 2011 00:54:50 |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 01:33:12
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| I'm sure they have the power to change their sex if they have reason or whim to, but I also think each deity has a preference, and that preference is what we mere mortals perceive and have been told by faith elders whether each deity exists as male or female. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 03:43:09
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Perhaps they exist as asexual at first, and when their faithful assert a certain gender, they revert to it. Their existence is partly sustained by their followers, so mayhap as their worshipers deem them to be of certain gender, they simply go along with it, or maybe are powerless to resist and assert their own choice? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 06:49:38
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I would say they can be pansexual. Take Zeus, he was famous for all sorts of crazy couplings. He seduced man, woman, beast, and inanimate objects in the guise of men, women, swans, bulls, golden showers, etc. And Loki gave birth to Sleipnir (Odin's horse) as a mare, after coupling with Svašilfari, the horse of the frost giant who built the walls of Asgard.
Most gods started out as mortals, and lived a mortal life as one gender or another. But as gods they are unconstrained by physical form and may appear as either gender. There is some evidence, too, that they are less constrained in their gender identity. While some prefer to stick with the same gender, others seem more malleable. Corellon is known to switch back and forth. And Akadi, for instance, is known as female in Faerūn, but is worshiped as the male god Teylas among the steppes of the Tuigan horde.
Ed Greenwood has spoken on this before if you check out his thread here at Candlekeep. It was a long while back, but I don't know which year, so it might take some searching to find. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2011 : 23:27:35
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| I will echo MrH, and say that some are very definitely one or the other- especially those who have offspring. to have offspring, one must have a clear gender. That is not to say that they cannot still change it temporarily for personal reasons, but they nearly ALWAYS revert back to their "base" gender. Even Loki, who was portrayed as female for a time in the MU, has since gone back to being male. Lolth and certain others do not seem to have ever even changed gender at all. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 16:59:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
To have offspring, one must have a clear gender.
Not necessarily. Some gods can create something out of nothing, human [or whatever race] lives included. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 17:10:15
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| Was it Athena that was Zeus headache? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 23:28:10
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From whence we get the word "parthenogenesis", by the way, as Athena Parthenos was one of her nicknames, meaning "virgin." Well, come to think of it, it may just mean virgin birth, as opposed to athena-like birth. quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
to have offspring, one must have a clear gender.
I can't agree with that. Look at Selūne and Shar; they made Chauntea together. Who was the mother and who was the dad? Not really specified, and not really important. They are two goddesses, they can make whatever they want. Io, the god of dragons, was said to have laid an egg or eggs from whence sprang all the species of dragons.
And then of course there's Adam, the first man, made from clay into whom Yahweh breathed life.
Hephaestus fashioned Pandora out of clay. Dionysus was born from Zeus's thigh. Consider also Galatea, a statue made by Pygmalion brought to life. And, ranging far afield, there was Diana of Themyscira, whose mother, unable to bear a child, made her out of clay and the gods granted her life. And Pinocchio, whose father, Gepetto, carved him from wood.
From all this, it would seem that a "clear gender" is not required to have offspring when it comes to gods and myths. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2011 : 02:35:34
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Certain deities clearly have genders. As Alystara said to the drow deities Gender/Sex is VERY, VERY important. Perhaps some do not, or appear in multiple genders. But they certainly aren't by definition genderless. Certain deities are clearly genderless, such as Ghaunadaur, but most are not. There should also be a distinction between avatars and the actual deity. Mask can manifest a female avatar, it seems, in the Prince of Lies as the giant goddess of thieves or whatever...but he is still essentially male. A god like Cyric was a mortal male and probably views himself as being male.
How real world mythological deities work does not necessarily relate to the realms. I don't see what Zeus, Loki, or Athena have to do with deities who are created and imagined with definite characteristics. Zeus is a mythological being where people all over the Mediterranean would have come up with (however that process occurs) their own mythos. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2011 : 03:37:34
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Quoth Dennis: "Aren't gods supposed to be asexual?"
Quoth Blueblade: What is this "supposed to" you speak of, Fellow Scribe Dennis?
BB |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2011 : 03:42:04
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I don't see what Zeus, Loki, or Athena have to do with deities who are created and imagined with definite characteristics. Zeus is a mythological being where people all over the Mediterranean would have come up with (however that process occurs) their own mythos.
They are as real the Torilian gods. In other words, their existence, or the illusion that they exist at all, rests primarily on the people who believe or discard it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Aryalómė
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2011 : 03:43:30
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| My, my, my. How long have I been gone? |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2011 : 15:46:35
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| No, they aren't. Not in D&D at least. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2011 : 21:09:38
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But.... different mythos have different ways in which deities work.
Greek gods certainly don't derive their power from mortals worshiping them, for example.
They are completely different entities. Torilian deities exist to serve as characters within a game world, and Greek deities were actually worshiped by people. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2011 : 21:37:29
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Tehnically, according to RAW, any being of deity status can 'manifest' in any form they wish, which would include a form of the opposite sex (or no sex, which is supposedly Corellon's case).
Now, I am not sure how much that means they are either "one sex or the other, or neither". Take Loki as a classic example - HE is definitely considered male, and yet has 'given birth' to several monsters while shapechanged. Zeus has also spontaneously given birth, and is most certainly male.
What I think (in other words, my opinion) is that beings that were once mortal but ascended would have a preference, and would normally appear (and be considered) either one sex or the other, even though that becomes a moot point once they attain divine status. On the other hand, beings that did NOT start out mortal - angels, fiends, Primordials & Elemental Lords, etc... would not have any preference, and would appear in whatever form they pleased (which would normally be in the form their worshipers expect, but not necessarily so). All such being would 'normally' appear androgynous, UNLESS they choose to look differently.
So the simple answer is 'yes'...
but most do have a preference (which is why I personally believe all deities are ascended mortals, but once again, just IMHO.) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2011 21:40:10 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 00:24:29
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| Looking at RW deities, it seems clear that MOST deities DO indeed have a very definite gender, with a few admitted exceptions (as noted with Athena). Zeus was in fact, very much male, no matter what form he took. (except for the sunbeam, which just stumps me...) The simple reason is that they have been SHAPED that way by their followers. in other words, they appear as male or female, depending on the expectations of their followers. Over time, those beliefs shape the deity as much as deific whim or preference. So A deity is male because the worshippers see it as such. And since many god/desses have a nature aspect of some sort (death, fertility,animals,birth,sun,etc) the aspect's natural tendancy to seem masculine or feminine influences that as well. Sun=SON (there is some speculation that Jesus was deified as a personification as the sun), earth=mother, and so on. FR deities seem to be no different in this. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2011 : 16:13:38
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Here's Ed's reply, which raises more questions:
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi again, all.
I bring you the latest replies from Ed of the Greenwood:
Dennis and Azuth,
The gods of the Realms are all (and have always been) sexual beings, because I created the Realms that way, though the needs of TSR and later Wizards (Code of Ethics/Code of Conduct, "appropriate for target audiences," et al) have often led to this being downplayed, not mentioned, or obfuscated in the published Realms.
Life and creation are essentially sexual acts, and all of the deities of the Realms are potentially pansexual but in practice tend to cleave to one gender or another - - and "have sex" very seldom (when doing so with other deities, there are obvious issues of safety for self [attack from other deities when vulnerable], and ongoing implications [offspring/power loss]). Sex for deities may involve the physical (and shapeshifting), but is primarily an energy melding and transfer ("mingling of divine fire") and involves intense sensations of pleasure for the participants. Deities engaging in sex can choose to "leave behind" tiny amounts of their essence to give them instant mental communications/control links, though if they try this with another deity it must be by permission (unless there's a huge power imbalance between the two beings), or it will simply be rejected/expelled. Often two allied deities will engage in this deliberately - - and they can, if they wish, do so swiftly without any great energy exchange or enjoyment.[snip]
So saith Ed, Creator of the Realms and its most keen and long-serving observer.
love to all,
THO
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2011 : 19:09:37
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EVERYTHING Ed says raises more questions... thats why he is a consummate world-builder. NOTHING should ever be infinitesimally defined to the point there is no further speculation; RW sciences do not work this way (nor philosophy, or anything else for that matter)- the more they discover, the more questions come to the fore. In other words, the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know (and if that sounds very Zen... it is). 
The day people stop asking questions is the day you start putting nails in the setting's coffin. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Dec 2011 19:09:56 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Aren't gods supposed to be asexual?
