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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 00:58:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
If there were truly a clear, cut and dry definition of fantasy I think it would be possible to determine if stories like Star Wars were fantasy or not. My fantasy has...wait my fantasy actually includes Megan Fox but I digress...ahem.
My fantasy can have no science in it...just magic in all cases. That doesn't mean I like one any less than the other though lol.
Agreed. My fantasy also can have zero tech (modern tech). Also, Megan Fox was much hotter when she didn't look like a Botox /collagen treatment got botched on her lips  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 01:01:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
The original Star Wars was a sci-fi take on the old fantasy tale of good conquers evil. Knights, a princess and a dark lord, if that's not based on fantasy then I don't know what is.
Saying something is based on fantasy and actually calling it fantasy are two entirely different things.
If you strip away the spaceships, it's a fantasy story.
I wouldn't say it's just a fantasy story. It's the classic take on the hero's journey trope... with a few fantastical elements thrown in for good measure. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 01:08:54
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
However, i would never classify Star Wars as a fantasy/scifi mix. Star Wars and Star Trek IMO are the very defintion of science fiction only.
The whole Jedi and Force part is fantasy while the space ship, laser, robots etc. part is science fiction.
Isn't the force directly related to the medichlorians (spelling?), microscopic organisms living inside the cells of everyone. The Jedi (and Sith) have learned to "communicate" with these organisms in order to perform extraordinary things. Sounds a little like biology or meditation to me.
It serves us to remember that the Jedi are, essentially, like monks or similar religious devotees here on Earth, and that they each possess a spiritual connection to an improperly defined metaphysical element that resides beyond the comprehension of most mortal beings.
And while that may sound like the basis for a fantastical story, the heart of that spiritual connection is forged through an understanding of science. But, it also requires mental discipline in order to properly make use of that understanding. Which could, in and of itself, swing either into the science or fantasy camps. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 01:10:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Dragonstar setting for D20 mixed fantasy and sci-fi, and I thought it did a good job of it. 
Indeed. I'm inclined to agree. It's a near-perfect synthesis of fantasy and science-fiction, with a dash of space opera thrown in for good measure. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 13:07:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
However, i would never classify Star Wars as a fantasy/scifi mix. Star Wars and Star Trek IMO are the very defintion of science fiction only.
The whole Jedi and Force part is fantasy while the space ship, laser, robots etc. part is science fiction.
Isn't the force directly related to the medichlorians (spelling?), microscopic organisms living inside the cells of everyone. The Jedi (and Sith) have learned to "communicate" with these organisms in order to perform extraordinary things. Sounds a little like biology or meditation to me.
It serves us to remember that the Jedi are, essentially, like monks or similar religious devotees here on Earth, and that they each possess a spiritual connection to an improperly defined metaphysical element that resides beyond the comprehension of most mortal beings.
And while that may sound like the basis for a fantastical story, the heart of that spiritual connection is forged through an understanding of science. But, it also requires mental discipline in order to properly make use of that understanding. Which could, in and of itself, swing either into the science or fantasy camps.
That is exactly how i think of the Jedi: highly trained martial skills, meditation, mastery over their bodies...similar to the Shoulin (spelling?) monks we have in real life. The main difference is that the Jedi have learned to communicate with a fictional microscopic form of life which lets them perform supernatural feats. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 15:12:47
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| The original purpose of this thread was to see how many of you read science fiction books as well as fantasy books. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 15:20:05
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I never medichlorine I didn't like. 
Actually, thats not true at all - I think that was the worst thing (after Jar Jar) they added to the series. Takes all the magic out of it (and is based on something in The Starchild Trilogy - George Lucas once again claiming to invent stuff that was around when he was in diapers).
@Alystra - Pern! Good call; forgot all about that. Pure fantasy, set in some distant future. Another like that - but taking place on a far-future Earth - is the Book of the New Sun series. IIRC, no (recognizable) tech, yet very distant future. I also greatly enjoyed Empire of the East, which is another future scenario, but after a nuclear war/holocaust has transformed the Earth into a fantasy setting. The only tech is ancient stuff they uncover (and there are only about three examples of this). We can probably add crap like Planet of the Apes and Thundarr the Barbarian into that quasi-fantasy ('Mad-Max') category.
Which brings me around to the current direction of the topic - if the future story is so far removed from our current time, and there is no tech (as we know it), then is it fantasy or scify? To be honest, Dune felt like a fantasy story to me, despite all the scify elements.
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
What about Mys-tech (Technology based on the magic of the setting or creating a similar product, ie: Crystal screens instead of video screens or TV, enchanted guns which fire elemental bolts)?
Opinions of that?
I usually refer to that as magi-tech, but I like your term much better. 
There are numerous examples of that sort of utility-magic in the Realms (someone even made a thread about it somewhere), and Eberron is based upon it.
When I ran Greyhawk, I had the CBN (Crystal Ball Network), which had only a couple of 'channels', and ran the news and stuff. Yeah... I know... but that was Oerth and that sort of thing worked there... 
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
The original purpose of this thread was to see how many of you read science fiction books as well as fantasy books.
But a problem arises when we try to draw a clear-cut line between the two.
I don't - the line is arbitrary (which we have been discussing), and a matter of personal opinion. To answer the question, I read both, and also lump-in adventure, horror, etc... its all fantasy to me. |
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Nov 2011 15:25:39 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 16:06:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Farrel
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Swap the bank with a cryo-locked cyber vault, swap the horses with anti-gravity speeders....and on and on
Sounds a bit like Firefly... I wish they had made more 
OMG, yeah, my sadness is that I didn't know of firefly when it came out. I so wish they had made more. I had to find out about it when a friend loaned me his dvd collection after Katrina and I was so hooked.
That all being said, I read more fantasy, but I do read the occasional sci-fi. In fact, I've made a bit of an effort in the last few years to try and read more of the classic sci-fi authors who have stood the test of time (not many mind you). I typically don't like the two mixed though.... but if someone can do it "right", I have no problem with it. Unfortunately, I can't tell you what "right" is. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 16:14:46
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| If you are in search of a good mixture I would recommend Warhammer 40k. Although I never read a novel I really like the setting |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 04 Nov 2011 16:15:02 |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 16:32:17
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One could always simply use the label used in Gamma World and label it 'science fantasy'. Shadowrun fits this description as well, and arguably, Star Wars, although if one classifies the Force as a psionic ability, then sure, it could be straight science fiction.
Both are equally worthy of a bibliophile's time. I have more free time than most, perhaps (long story), but any book that gets me out of the real world for a time is worth at least an attempt at reading. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2011 : 01:22:31
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
If you are in search of a good mixture I would recommend Warhammer 40k. Although I never read a novel I really like the setting
I'd be a little more discriminatory with such an observation. Not all WH40K fiction which is based strictly on the setting, could be constituted as a good mixture of science-fiction and fantasy.
Descent of Angels, for example, suitably blends the concept of mixing science-fiction with fantasy, by telling the tale of the origins of the Dark Angels Space Marines -- how they progressed from strictly archaic planet-bound knighthoods fighting fantastical beasts on Caliban, to genetic super-warriors of technological marvel fighting encroaching xeno scum across the fringes of the Imperium of Man. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2011 : 18:09:46
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Having read your comment, Sage, I was intrigued and actually sampled the said novel. But alas, I couldn't even finish the first chapter. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 02:39:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Having read your comment, Sage, I was intrigued and actually sampled the said novel. But alas, I couldn't even finish the first chapter.
I should have noted that unless you have a vested interest in the origins of the Dark Angels, then this novel probably isn't for the casual WH40K reader.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 03:37:37
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It was good for me then that I bothered to sample it first. Otherwise, it would have gone straight to charity. [Which, yes, I know, isn't bad, either.]
Even some Warhammer novels turn out to be not for my taste, most notable of which is Mike Lee's Nagash Trilogy. I didn't finish the first book, and probably will never pick it up again. The magic system of the Warhammer world is fascinating, and their necromancy more or less defines what that school of magic truly stands for. Nagash himself is [slightly] interesting. But Mike Lee does not only lack originality, he also likes to repeat himself a hundred times. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 16:31:26
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
The original purpose of this thread was to see how many of you read science fiction books as well as fantasy books.
Just as a note, the title of the scroll is a bit confusing for someone jumping in and not having read the original post. To answer your question, I read almost exclusively fantasy, with a bit of urban fantasy (a la the Dresden Files and The Word & The Void Trilogy and science fiction with fantasy elements (pretty much just Star Wars and a little 40K here and there). While I love science fiction shows like Doctor Who, Stargate, and Star Trek, I do not normally read science fiction novels.
And for the record, I view Star Wars more as a fantasy than a science fiction world/plane/galaxy. If you look at some of the authors who have written some of the best Star Wars novels the majority of them began as fantasy authors (Stackpole, Salvatore, Denning, Cunningham, Golden)(not to say that there are not excellent SW novels written by scifi authors such as Zahn and authors who had not written fiction before like Traviss and Allston). |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 01:09:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
The original Star Wars was a sci-fi take on the old fantasy tale of good conquers evil. Knights, a princess and a dark lord, if that's not based on fantasy then I don't know what is.
Saying something is based on fantasy and actually calling it fantasy are two entirely different things.
If you strip away the spaceships, it's a fantasy story.
Considering how soft the science of star wars is, it's fantasy even with the space ships. Just keeps the sci-fi look. |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 06:32:09
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| I read a fair amount of sci-fi when I was a kid, but ended up spending more time trying to enjoy Asimov, HG Wells, Bradbury etc. than reading stuff I actually wanted to read (I did enjoy me some Bradbury, and thought The Invisible Man was wicked cool, but as far as reading for general enjoyment purposes go, I read a lot more back then that felt more like school than it should have). I think it had something to do with being more interested in Star Wars and Michael Crichton when I was 13, despite what books my mom would try to sway me toward reading via birthday/Christmas presents. Plus, the local library's mess vs ocd need to read things in very particular proper chronological order made me move on to pretty much just reading non-fiction until I was nearly done with college. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2011 : 15:22:01
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My very first novels I read through were the classic fantasy of Tolkien. But soon I learned to appreciate modern writers and read nearly only scify, especially cyberpunk novels like Gibsons Sprawl trilogy, Sterlings Mirrorshades anthology and John Barnes novel Mother of Storms. I appreciated space opera's like Simon R. Greens Deathstalker series aswell before slowly easing back into the fantasy genre by reading game world related fiction.
I followed Gaunts Ghosts around the empire of man in the 41st millenium (very scify but character driven and brutal like a fantasy novel), dabbled in some novellas written for White Wolfs World of Darkness for a while (set in the modern age but with some elements of the fantastic sprinkled in) before I yearned to learn more of the realms through its novels. The Dark Elf trilogy followed and many Realms related goodness passed my eyes ever since. Occasionally I got handed down a good scify yarn from my dad though.
Currently I'm exploring more and more authors outside of the Realms by scouring my local library. I read several good new authors (Brent Weeks being my favorite amongst them), several awful ones (can't stand Tad Williams) and I have picked up only a single good science-fiction novel during this time (Cyberweb by Lisa Mason). I yearn for returning to reading more well written cyberpunk series though. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2011 : 15:23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
My very first novels I read through were the classic fantasy of Tolkien. But soon I learned to appreciate modern writers and read nearly only scify, especially cyberpunk novels like Gibsons Sprawl trilogy, Sterlings Mirrorshades anthology and John Barnes novel Mother of Storms. I appreciated space opera's like Simon R. Greens Deathstalker series aswell before slowly easing back into the fantasy genre by reading game world related fiction.
I followed Gaunts Ghosts around the empire of man in the 41st millenium (very scify but character driven and brutal like a fantasy novel), dabbled in some novellas written for White Wolfs World of Darkness for a while (set in the modern age but with some elements of the fantastic sprinkled in) before I yearned to learn more of the realms through its novels. The Dark Elf trilogy followed and many Realms related goodness passed my eyes ever since. Occasionally I got handed down a good scify yarn from my dad though.
Currently I'm exploring more and more authors outside of the Realms by scouring my local library. I read several good new authors (Brent Weeks being my favorite amongst them), several awful ones (can't stand Tad Williams) and I have picked up only a single good science-fiction novel during this time (Cyberweb by Lisa Mason). I yearn for returning to reading more well written cyberpunk series though.
I heard Dan Simmons is a fantastic SciFi author |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2011 : 15:48:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Thanks for the heads up. He writes space opera or more near future/cyber style?
I haven't read him myself but heard his "Hyperion" series is far-future. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2011 : 16:27:44
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I rather like fantasy/scifi, though I prefer stories where the scifi elements *serve* the fantasy, rather than the other way around. Spaceships, laser weapons, etc., become tools in telling a fantasy story (like Star Wars, for instance, or the Shannara series).
I'm actually writing a (non-WotC) scifi/fantasy mash-up series called the World of Ruin at the moment, some hints to which you can see in my tie-in story in WHEN THE HERO COMES HOME. My agent is currently working on placing it, but the economy's not so good for non-bestseller writers these days. Alas. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2011 : 20:50:40
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I have mentioned just Scify that reads like fantasy (Dune, Majipoor, etc), but there are some real gems in the pure Scify genre that I have enjoyed.
The Dorsai novels, and anything by Larry Niven (the creator of Ringworld). Both VERY different styles.
Dorsai is more pulpy (like Conan), and Ringworld is more like High Fantasy (Forgotten Realms), in esthetics. Both excellent, though. Larry Niven is amazing in that he writes like Asimov (another superb author) - all his novels take place within the same uber-setting, during different time periods. When you read enough of either of those authors, you start to get a sense of the history of the universe, which is awesome.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I'm actually writing a (non-WotC) scifi/fantasy mash-up series called the World of Ruin at the moment, some hints to which you can see in my tie-in story in WHEN THE HERO COMES HOME. My agent is currently working on placing it, but the economy's not so good for non-bestseller writers these days. Alas.
Everyone here that? Go out and buy 500 more copies of all of Erik's novels! |
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Nov 2011 21:04:23 |
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Fantasy mixed with SciFi?
