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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 15:34:17
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So I am in the process of buying a house right now (rebuilding the old one is both a headache and also stupid in today's Buyer's Market), and the Real Estate Site I have been using runs ads for D&D! 
First off, don't WotC realize that most D&D player's live in their Mom's Basement? Or worse (the current crop), 12-14 yr-olds that are not in the market for a house (and will probably live in their Mom's basement). Then there are the 'professional types' (a lot of us here) who's partner's no longer allow them to actually play the game anymore.
And if they are shopping for a house, don't you think they would get in-trouble because their partner would rather they throw out all their "geeky gaming crap" before moving into a new home?
Okay, so much for the rant about more of WotC's apparent inability to make decisions that make sense - they don't even seem to know where to advertise (and once again I bring up those enormous - and brilliant - Redgar stand-ups and end-cap displays at ALL the book stores when 3e was released).
So now on to the the rant-topic at hand.... 
The flash-ad on the sidebar was for something called 'Lair Assault' and first said "You can Roleplay your death scene"
Okaaaaaay.... dying is precisely what I want to avoid, but I guess I've been playing this game wrong.... 
Then it said "A challenge for Tacticians, Rules Experts, Min/Maxers, & Power Gamers".
Just when I was way past caring, they start advertising that they are a game for people I would rather not play with (spoiled brats with huge egos), and make it seem like the only point at which you can actually roleplay in their RPG is when you die!
This isn't a rant aimed at designers - it is a rant aimed at their highly incompetent advertising dept. Where are those geniuses that worked for them when 3e was released? From the get-go, this has to be one of THE WORST ad-campaigns I have ever witnessed. It's like they don't even know who their target audience is.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Feb 2012 20:22:51
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 16:00:27
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All Lair Assaults are D&D games, but not all D&D games are Lair Assaults.
To explain: D&D has many different programs targeted for different things. For instance, D&D Encounters is designed to provide a weekly "D&D fix" and draw new players into the game, while Game Days or "Weekend in the XXXX Setting" are meant to spotlight new products. Lair Assault is a program just like these, with a different purpose: pushing the system to the limit.
"Lair Assault" is a single encounter, run at FLGSs, that is built to cater to powergamers who don't otherwise have an official outlet for their excesses. The ads aren't claiming that D&D is a refuge for munchkins--only that LAIR ASSAULT is. See here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4news/20110517
(Side note: I do something like this in my home games, actually--on a weekend where I have no other D&D going on, I run a campaign called "Godslayers," in which players create tweaked-out 30th level characters and I throw the game's big bads at them. First encounter was Orcus, second was Demogorgon/Dagon tag-team, then Empowered Ashardalon. It goes pretty well, though considering how mechanically brilliant my players are, it gets pretty frustrating for me as the DM.)
As for it being on your real estate site, that does seem odd, but remember that the internet often automatically selects ads it "thinks" are going to appeal to you (Facebook, for instance, does this all the time). I sincerely doubt the WotC Ad department goes online and finds bizarre places to put their ads.
Also, your argument begs the question in assuming that D&D players are nerds who live with their parents or have spouses who hate their hobbies and want to throw away all their stuff. The vast majority of D&D players I know don't fall into either of those categories. Are you speaking from your own experience? Just pulling down stereotypes?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 19:29:37
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| My wife has no interest in role-playing games, aside from Lord of the Rings Online (an MMO). And she has never had any issue with the amount of D&D stuff I have -- one room of our house is the "computer rooom", where my computer, most of my toys, most of my books, and most of my action figures reside. My wife is not only fine with me having my own room for all of that, when we moved into our current house, she recommended I take the larger of the other two bedrooms for that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 22:54:35
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The part about "Mom's Basement" was meant tongue-in-cheek, but I still found it a rather odd place for a D&D ad. The only way they could know my preferences is if they are tied to FB (which I no longer frequent, because I found them so intrusive). I also try to flush my cookies regularly (why does that sound SO WRONG?)
I have noticed D&D ads 2 other times (mixed-in with other sidebar ads), but was never... offended(?)... by what the ad said before. I just found the whole thing bizarre.
Erik, seriously... you see nothing wrong with an ad that says "You can Roleplay your death"?
It almost seems like Paizo wrote that particular blurb for you guys. 
And I just want it on the record that I live in my sister's basement. Only 40-yr-old virgins live in their Mom's basement. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 23:44:12
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So, I own my house and I have my stuff in the basement.
What does that make me? |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 23:57:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Erik, seriously... you see nothing wrong with an ad that says "You can Roleplay your death"?
Sure. But I also find it amusing. And it's particularly funny, since death is SO RARE in 4e D&D compared to other editions. The adventure has to stack the deck considerably AND try actively to kill the PCs (as Lair Assault does) in order to have any chance. 
It's like an add that says: "Call of Cthulhu: The most fun you can have going insane!" or "The Walking Dead: You get to count the pages until your favorite character gets eaten by zombies!"
I understand if the ad doesn't work for you, of course.
quote:
It almost seems like Paizo wrote that particular blurb for you guys.
You know, I haven't seen any indication of any Paizo vs. WotC animosity on the part of the actual designers. The Paizo guys seem very classy, as do the WotC guys. A lot of them are very good friends.
The only tension I see is in the fanbase, which I find very sad. You'd think we could all cooperate to advance the hobby.
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
So, I own my house and I have my stuff in the basement.
What does that make me?
Your own parent(s)?
Ah, but you probably knew that already.
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 27 Oct 2011 23:58:37 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2011 : 00:14:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
It's like an add that says: "Call of Cthulhu: The most fun you can have going insane!" or "The Walking Dead: You get to count the pages until your favorite character gets eaten by zombies!"
I've described Good Omens as "the funniest book about the Apocalypse that you'll ever read!" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2011 : 00:23:07
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| I tend to avoid the term munchkin on forums like this. It's a hot button to trigger flames from RPGers, just like religion and politics are for normal people. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Farrel
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
239 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2011 : 00:59:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
It's like an add that says: "Call of Cthulhu: The most fun you can have going insane!"
This is signature worthy if you don't mind, please?
It make me cackle like a man seeing a Fungi from Yuggoth  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2011 : 01:07:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My wife has no interest in role-playing games, aside from Lord of the Rings Online (an MMO).
I was lucky in this regard, as the Lady K came from the DRAGONLANCE crowd, a setting and product line near and dear to my heart. She wasn't as well affliated with the Realms, but often enjoyed similarly-themed RPGs, so it was an easy enough transition to Ed's grand world when I first had the pleasure of introducing her to it.
quote:
And she has never had any issue with the amount of D&D stuff I have -- one room of our house is the "computer rooom", where my computer, most of my toys, most of my books, and most of my action figures reside.
I learned long ago not to consider any room in our house as, strictly, "my room." It's always "our room." And the amount of varied gaming paraphernalia -- that represents both of our many and weird gaming interests -- is evidence enough of that.
Where else would you find one of those few rare copies of a My Little Pony RPG sitting right alongside a first edition copy of BattleTech?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2011 : 01:09:15
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Looking for tag lines?
Try this one.
I an not insane, I play D&D. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2011 : 03:02:56
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| The ad was probably a Google ad or something like it. The ad content is keyed to your previous browsing history. If you've visited related sites or searched for related topics, the ads are catered to your tastes. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2011 : 04:25:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Where else would you find one of those few rare copies of a My Little Pony RPG sitting right alongside a first edition copy of BattleTech?
I don't know that I'd admit to owning the My Little Pony RPG. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2011 : 05:53:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
The ad was probably a Google ad or something like it. The ad content is keyed to your previous browsing history. If you've visited related sites or searched for related topics, the ads are catered to your tastes.
Exactly!
They know where you have been, and they are finetuning their ads to your taste. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2011 : 06:35:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Where else would you find one of those few rare copies of a My Little Pony RPG sitting right alongside a first edition copy of BattleTech?
I don't know that I'd admit to owning the My Little Pony RPG.
I was only playing it because I wanted to make sure it was an appropriate RPG for Narnra, once she approaches "gaming-age."  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2011 : 10:52:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Where else would you find one of those few rare copies of a My Little Pony RPG sitting right alongside a first edition copy of BattleTech?
I don't know that I'd admit to owning the My Little Pony RPG.
I was only playing it because I wanted to make sure it was an appropriate RPG for Narnra, once she approaches "gaming-age."
Suuurrree you were... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2011 : 18:19:53
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BTW, this was in NO WAY another 'bash 4e ad' - I am actually of the opinion now that I hope it succeeds (truly - the alternative is something I don't think any of us wants).
That's why the ad irked me so much - it was just that bad (IMHO). I had no idea it was about a specific event/encounter that WotC is running in conjunction with stores - it appears (to me) as just another 4e ad, which is the whole problem with it; if I think that, so will others. There isn't enough info in the ad itself to see that it is a specific adventure with specific goals in mind.
Something like "The culmination of a lifetime of adventuring" would have been so much better then "Roleplay your death". Like so much else (concerning 4e hype), it just doesn't seem very well thought-out, and even counter-productive.
Please, PLEASE WotC guys - use FOCUS GROUPS!!! You may understand what you are trying to convey, but by now, I would hope you realize your points are just not coming across the way you see them. Hasbro has an excellent advertising Dept. - either you are not using them, or they do not understand the product(s).
I don't know what sort of budget-constraints you guys are under, but take a note from the Privateer Press guys - when they were pushing Warmachine, almost every LGS had evangelists (company-hired advocates that ran games) there every weekend. Those folks got paid in free products, and did a bang-up job stimulating interest in the game (I know, I bought tons of the stuff).
You know what I got when I heard about 4e and asked at my LGS? The guy behind the counter - who I've know for over 20 years - said "You mean Wizard's latest money-grab?"
THAT from the guy who is supposed to be selling your products. 
And the explanation about why I saw that ad on my Real-Estate site just makes it worse - the only people seeing these products are the people already aware of D&D? That' not good, considering 4e's target audience (new players). Think about that form of advertising - if they never visit a similar product site, they will never see your ad... not good, not good at all.
On the other hand, I think face-to-face RPGing is dead, so I hope your gaming-table app is stupendous, because I think that is the future of D&D. Kids no longer want to leave their rooms to play games (which is just very sad). I still think you need to give it away for FREE, and then charge for 'perks' (the same profit-model used by Zynga/Facebook games - its brilliant).
Turn the game-table into a FREE flash-app and watch the cash roll in. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Oct 2011 18:22:02 |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2012 : 21:33:47
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quote:
Then it said "A challenge for Tacticians, Rules Experts, Min/Maxers, & Power Gamers".
Just when I was way past caring, they start advertising that they are a game for people I would rather not play with (spoiled brats with huge egos)
I'm a powergamer and min/maxer and I feel insulted by your words.
Also, if it wont make a big difference to you, please don't use "munchkin" when talking about a "powergamer", because it's not the same and it's insulting. |
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Edited by - Imp on 05 Feb 2012 21:34:29 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 03:11:55
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| I've been a powergamer... I think every RPG'er has been at some point in their gaming lives... and even when I was, I had no problem with the term "munchkin"... I guess it's like other offensive terms (which I won't repeat here): own it, and it ceases to be offensive. I respond the same way to accusations of geekdom: "Yeah, and I'm a better one than you!" That usually confuses the intended offender into silence and hastened absence. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 06 Feb 2012 03:13:16 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 03:20:46
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| Holy necromancy, Batman! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 03:51:50
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| You didn't even bother to read the scroll before trolling into it this time, Imp? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 03:57:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Holy necromancy, Batman!
Nah... this scroll was only three months old. Around here, it's scroll necromancy if it's been dormant for three years. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 04:11:36
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Wait....you mean people DON'T have the Char_Op page linked as a favorite??! I'm good for checking it like twice a day, if only to see what they'll roll out with next.
Though I admit I somehwat agree with Imp (wow, never thought I'd type that phrase) in that Munchkin isn't the same as Powergamer to me. Munchkins often straight-up cheat and take large amounts of liberties with the Rules-As-Written and Rule-As-Intended arguments. Powergames often work within the confines of their space, eeeking out every bit of whatever they deem worthy of....well "breaking" but don't abuse RAI or RAW unless it's specifically ruled a certain way by WotC errata, a Customer Service decision, or a DM.
To say that I'd be insulted by it, well that's a bit extreme IMO. But as Jakk says, just own it and arguments usually just go away. |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 20:10:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
I troll when I can.
I certainly hope this was a joke, because trollish behavior violates the Code of Conduct we all agreed to when we joined this site. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 20:44:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
quote:
Though I admit I somehwat agree with Imp (wow, never thought I'd type that phrase)
You have a problem with me, say it straight.
We seem not to agree on many discussion here at the 'Keep, but on the topic of Munchkins, powergamers, and Min/Maxers, we do. I was speaking in jest, nothing more or nothing less. |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 21:04:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Imp
quote:
Though I admit I somehwat agree with Imp (wow, never thought I'd type that phrase)
You have a problem with me, say it straight.
We seem not to agree on many discussion here at the 'Keep, but on the topic of Munchkins, powergamers, and Min/Maxers, we do. I was speaking in jest, nothing more or nothing less.
Oh, okay. Sorry. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 01:33:55
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I'm not going to change just to cater to random people on the internet.
If I've breached this sites CoC or if you already branded me as a troll, go ahead and ban me or warn me or whatever. But if I didn't, it would be very nice if you Mods could do something with such rude posts as the one that calls me a troll. I was under the impression that such posts aren't allowed. |
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Edited by - Imp on 07 Feb 2012 01:36:40 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 02:18:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
I'm not going to change just to cater to random people on the internet.
Maybe I'm mistaken here, but you seem to be contradicting yourself, based on your prior actions.
For example:-
quote:
Originally posted by Imp
I was called a troll, so I obviously must be a troll.
The very fact that you felt the need to acknowledge such a statement, suggests to me that you've already apparently changed to cater to what others may claim about you. Or at least create the perception of acceding to what someone else has said about you.
quote:
If I've breached this sites CoC or if you already branded me as a troll, go ahead and ban me or warn me or whatever. But if I didn't, it would be very nice if you Mods could do something with such rude posts as the one that calls me a troll. I was under the impression that such posts aren't allowed.
Of course they're not allowed. But you've kind of muddied the waters somewhat, with your response. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Attack of the Munchkins (and other stuff)
