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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 01:31:05
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Poll Question:
Being elected zulkir does not only mean one is politically influential, but most importantly, it also means he or she is magically competent and powerful. Ruling Thay is not easy, especially when you have to always watch your back for assassins and envious rivals.
The zulkirs, past and present, have different personalities that in one way or another appeal to us. Their common traits, I believe, are boundless selfishness, unflagging haughtiness, and formidable power. As often as not, those zulkirs that we like most either mirror our personality or possess one that is opposite our own. And sometimes, neither of the two---we simply find them interesting.
So, who is your favorite zulkir and why?
Some personages below might be unfamiliar to you as they did not appear in any novels. Hence, I include descriptions, which are all by Ed.
Iyrith Telgahlagar (Enchantment): described as a darkly handsome, bearded man who was urbane, soft-spoken, and a master strategist and diplomat, the most dominant of the zulkirs through his skilled forging of alliances with his fellow zulkirs and among the tharchions and tharchionesses; ruthless in slaying rivals who act against him, often through spells delivered by bats that fly under his direction; once described by a Red Wizard as “Asmodeus among us,” and probably the closest of any individual to being the true ruler of Thay, at the time.
Hahlomede Teeos (Abjuration): known as “Blackwyrm” for his everpresent tattered black robes and cloaks, that rendered him immune to dragon attacks and made dragons actively avoid him, Teeos loved to act mysterious and to track down lost treasures, old magics, and deceptions, this last sort of hunting quickly making him very unpopular with many Thayans; he became the feared, tireless, and increasingly hated “investigator” of the First Zulkirate.
Dlueae Sharshyndree (Evocation): the first female zulkir, Dlueae [pronounced “Dul-LOO-ay”] was a curvaceous woman with a melodious voice and alluring walk—who also had a coarse-featured and mannish face; she “had to shave like a man” and had acquired several disfiguring facial scars in her youthful adventuring career, and as a result customarily hid her face behind full head masks, which she sometimes augmented with a warrior’s battle-helm; a bold and calm battle-leader and a good tactician, she served Thay well in warfare and built ever-increasing influence over her fellow zulkirs, both by taking them as lovers and befriending them with aid and assistance for their personal projects, and by often stating and refining successful policies for Thay that she got her fellow zulkirs to support (and that they therefore took pride in); a mediator and peacemaker among her fellow zulkirs.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 01:32:02
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Others [The descriptions are, again, all by Ed.]
Dmitra Flass (Illusion)
Samas Kul (Transmutation)
Tlantros Tulhoond (Conjuration): an aloof, private man who feared attack at all times, and was therefore always ready for battle, with schemes and “hanging” spells galore ready as both defenses and deterrents, in addition to the monsters he could magically whisk from elsewhere to his side; a sophisticated lover of music, wines, subtle behaviour, and “refinement” who opposed Thay’s ever-greater reliance on slavery and the plundering of its resources at the expense of rejuvenating the land (he hated mines and quarries, preferring that Thay take what it needed from other lands by conquest or magical seizure and transportation).
Zarhandro Laeluth (Enchantment): a fat, jovial man who deceived his fellow zulkirs—and everyone else he had any contact with, in life—as much as possible; made frequent use of doubles to make it appear that he was in one place while he was busy in another; often bubbled with gleeful laughter as he tricked or slew or took cruel revenges; trusted by very few, and feared by many, especially tharchions (whom he was known to have personally slain scores of, over the unfolding years, many by torture); a hedonist who loved exotic foods and long, gluttonous feasts.
Tarabbas Mroound (Necromancy): a tall, sardonic, cadaver-thin man who “disappeared into bones” at will, and apparently did so permanently, soon after being named zulkir, apparently of his own volition and not due to any attack launched by a rival or would-be successor; many Thayan night-rumors insist he lives on, still, watching over Thay and covertly bringing misfortune to those he dislikes, whilst aiding those he favors
Kulvur Naraelond (Transmutation): a sly, witty, smart-mouthed trickster of a man, handsome and acrobatic, who was trusted by few; most men loathed him, and most women found him irresistible; a hedonist who seemingly cared more for enjoyment of food, drink, lovemaking, and diversions—even elaborate pranks—more than anything else in life; made many foes very quickly, and did not last long in office (or life).
Eldryn Lammaraster (Abjuration): an old, bitter, grim pessimist who saw treachery and would-be successors around ever corner, in every shadow, and behind every door—and prepared himself accordingly, between manyfold layers of defensive magics; his specialty was spells—many of which died with him—that had nasty counter-attacks built into them, triggered by their defensive activation and not by the caster having to trigger them.
Balineth Skroun (Conjuration): a toad-faced, forbidding man who used intimidation and prepared “stage tricks” of magic to cow many a rival or defiant underling, Skroun hid well his deep love of Thay and his real loyalty to his fellow zulkirs; over time, became as trusted by his fellow zulkirs as any holder of a zulkirate has ever been, and with good reason; a true “team player” who looked ahead and acted for the betterment of Thay, beneath a surly public mask.
Uldreth Korroth (Evocation): a grossly fat, lewd, aggressive man known for having layer upon layer of backup spells and schemes, and for being a jovial friend to all zulkirs, and a cruel, ruthless trickster to tharchions, tharchionesses, and all Thayans of lower station whom he had contact with; enjoyed frequent personal slayings of the “spectacular butchery” sort.
Mahlind Yarrr (Transmutation): a short, dark-haired, slender man of very few words, who always dressed in crimson robes and was very efficient and a master of foreseeing or anticipating events, treacheries against him, and likely outcomes, and preparing for them; almost always on the “winning side” in policy disputes among the zulkirs, who made few fierce foes and enriched himself greatly with trade outside Thay involving manipulated agents and dupes, in sales of drugs and gems, and prostitution.
Yaerind Mahl (Illusion): an inscrutable man of few words and fewer direct answers, stances, or clear statements, who customarily cloaked his true appearance with magical disguises, and preferred to spend much time roaming Thay appearing as various creatures, to spy and learn (and sometimes strike down treachery—which he widely defined as “anything he disliked”—where and when he found it); was the first zulkir to force many apprentices and dupes to pretend to be him, so they perished in attacks meant to slay him, so he could strike down those who’d thought they’d killed the Zulkir of Illusion; possessed a pair of golden lions (figurines of wondrous power) that hunted and slew at his command. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 14:34:07
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| How is Szass Tam NOT going to win this poll??? |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 14:38:20
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
How is Szass Tam NOT going to win this poll???
I didn't vote for him. I like him, but I like Lallara more. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 14:41:15
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| Szass Tam... |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 17:07:20
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| Only thing likeable about the zulkirs is what you can take from their corpses, Eldryn Lammaraster's spellbook for example. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 18:15:25
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Lallara Mediocros from the novels. In my mind she lives yet in Amn <3 (1485)
Where do these other descriptions come from? (And why were they almost all male, I didn't think Thay had gender based power disparity : / ) |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 20:10:04
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| Which of the Zulkirs was the one who befriended the Simbul in the novels? Did I dream that btw? Was it Lauzoril? If so, I'll come back and vote for him. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 23:06:15
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| Szass Tam (Necromancy) |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 08:40:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Which of the Zulkirs was the one who befriended the Simbul in the novels? Did I dream that btw? Was it Lauzoril? If so, I'll come back and vote for him.
Yes, it was Lauzoril. The Simbul thought he's handsome. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 08:49:12
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Lallara Mediocros from the novels. In my mind she lives yet in Amn <3 (1485)
Where do these other descriptions come from? (And why were they almost all male, I didn't think Thay had gender based power disparity : / )
Long live Lallara!
You can read the descriptions from Ed's original post here.
You have the right of it, Thay never discriminates in gender. Whoever is powerful and cunning enough can rise to become a zulkir. Perhaps, it just happened that the females during the time of the First Zulkirate weren't that powerful, or simply chose a less complicated life of a "normal" Red Wizard. Remember, some powerful personages in the long history of Thay preferred seclusion to a zulkir's throne. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 21:13:55
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| I voted Lauzoril, because I've always liked a more scheming, manipulative behind the scenes Zulkir. However, I can't believe we don't have listed Ythazz Buvarr, the leader who founded Thay and Zulkirate system. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 23:09:44
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| szass tam.obhiously. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 02:51:43
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| I don't feel I could vote for a Zulkir I haven't experienced. A paragraph description isn't enough. Only the ones in the novels do I feel I know in any way. ( and only some of them, obviously not say...Mythrell'aa... ) |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 02:59:42
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I want Szass Tam to be defeated.
I am plotting my own story of his downfall (Lallara, Mythrell'aa, and Yaphyll still being alive and working with other powerful beings threatened by him - such as Simbarchs, the drow of Undrek'Thoz, the Pharoah of Mulhorand, the Otholars, the Laughing Mime of Songfarla, etc. )
Someone who tries to destroy the world and wants to try again seems a likely candidate for a large number of people ganging up on him. |
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 17 Oct 2011 03:00:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 04:46:20
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| I don't really care too much about any of the zulkirs, myself. And besides which, I also prefer my idea for a Thayan civil war. Seems a lot more fun to me than the destroy the world plot. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 04:55:28
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I don't feel I could vote for a Zulkir I haven't experienced. A paragraph description isn't enough. Only the ones in the novels do I feel I know in any way. ( and only some of them, obviously not say...Mythrell'aa... )
My thoughts exactly. Despite the onderful descriptions provided by Ed, I say it’s more important that I see how exactly does a zulkir behaves. And only novel time could show that. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 04:57:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't really care too much about any of the zulkirs, myself. And besides which, I also prefer my idea for a Thayan civil war. Seems a lot more fun to me than the destroy the world plot.
Civil War? It already happened, and probably will happen again soon. I recommend you read The Haunted Lands Trilogy. On the other hand, I remember you loathe 4E books. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 17 Oct 2011 04:58:15 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 05:01:48
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I want Szass Tam to be defeated.
I am plotting my own story of his downfall (Lallara, Mythrell'aa, and Yaphyll still being alive and working with other powerful beings threatened by him - such as Simbarchs, the drow of Undrek'Thoz, the Pharoah of Mulhorand, the Otholars, the Laughing Mime of Songfarla, etc. )
Someone who tries to destroy the world and wants to try again seems a likely candidate for a large number of people ganging up on him.
I think it will be more appropriate if he defeats his own self. Say, when he casts the Ritual of Unmaking, everything goes haywire and the backlash of massive amount of magic destroys him. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 05:05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't really care too much about any of the zulkirs, myself.
I like the zulkirs, especially as Ed has elaborated on them in the past.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Civil War? It already happened, and probably will happen again soon.
Wooly is referring to the outlines both he and I were tinkering with for an alternate Thayvian Civil War scenario.
I don't have time to find the links for those previous discussions scrolls, though. Maybe Wooly can recall where they are stored?
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 09:46:56
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't really care too much about any of the zulkirs, myself.
I like the zulkirs, especially as Ed has elaborated on them in the past.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Civil War? It already happened, and probably will happen again soon.
Wooly is referring to the outlines both he and I were tinkering with for an alternate Thayvian Civil War scenario.
I don't have time to find the links for those previous discussions scrolls, though. Maybe Wooly can recall where they are stored?
Indeed. My idea for a Thayan civil war draws more from the conflict within Clan Wolf in BattleTech. My idea is that Tam gets caught dominating some of the zulkirs, and that the zulkirs take sides for or against him. The against him faction winds up based in Mulmaster, and there's a long-term, slow-burning conflict between the two sides trying to decide the fate of Thay. And of course every other faction in the Realms gets involved, hoping to gain magic/power, or keep Thay weakened, or even hoping to do away with the rulership of both Thay and Thay-in-Exile and replace it with something a little less hostile to non-Thayans.
Smaller scale than "keep the madman from destroying the world" but with a lot greater potential for intrigue and adventure, with everyone and their brother getting involved.
The idea is more detailed here, in the "Thay... then or now?" discussion. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Oct 2011 09:52:31 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 10:08:38
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| Isn't Thay always in some civil war? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 10:24:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Isn't Thay always in some civil war?
There is always some minor intrigue and conflict going on within the zulkirate, but I envision an actual split in the ranks and visible conflict. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 11:34:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Isn't Thay always in some civil war?
No. The zulkirs had been divided in two factions, one "led" by Aznar Thrul and the other, by Szass Tam. But even the ones belonging in the same faction had conflict of interests. They've always been a selfish lot, backstabbing each other. However, it was only recently that one of them stirred enough chaos in the realm that eventually led to a bloody 110-year Civil War. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 14:45:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't really care too much about any of the zulkirs, myself.
I like the zulkirs, especially as Ed has elaborated on them in the past.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Civil War? It already happened, and probably will happen again soon.
Wooly is referring to the outlines both he and I were tinkering with for an alternate Thayvian Civil War scenario.
I don't have time to find the links for those previous discussions scrolls, though. Maybe Wooly can recall where they are stored?
Indeed. My idea for a Thayan civil war draws more from the conflict within Clan Wolf in BattleTech. My idea is that Tam gets caught dominating some of the zulkirs, and that the zulkirs take sides for or against him. The against him faction winds up based in Mulmaster, and there's a long-term, slow-burning conflict between the two sides trying to decide the fate of Thay. And of course every other faction in the Realms gets involved, hoping to gain magic/power, or keep Thay weakened, or even hoping to do away with the rulership of both Thay and Thay-in-Exile and replace it with something a little less hostile to non-Thayans.
Smaller scale than "keep the madman from destroying the world" but with a lot greater potential for intrigue and adventure, with everyone and their brother getting involved.
The idea is more detailed here, in the "Thay... then or now?" discussion.
This pretty much goes along with what I had said at one point. I would have been perfectly happy to see Tam ruling over a country of undead, but I didn't want to see the other Zulkirs going away. In my view, it might have been a good idea to actually have him ousted from the country by the other Zulkirs (not without collateral dmg mind you) and he start up another country somewhere where he could make a country devoted to necromancy. The fallen theocracy of Eltabrannar might have been a perfect place to relocate, given its ties to Myrkul and Eltab. Maybe Tam goes there because there's something there which would enable him to control Eltab or at least defend him from Eltab's predations. The new country might even give their worship to a deity besides Velsharoon (maybe Kiaransalee, maybe Orcus, maybe Thasmudyan from the Isle of Suha in Zakhara, maybe even Myrkul, or maybe even Set or Shar). Either way, putting the Thayan Zulkirs on one side of Mulhorand and a new country devoted to necromancy on the other side I think would have proven to be a fun campaign. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 15:53:35
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As Richard himself said, the other zulkirs might have survived the war. So we should not be surprised if they someday rise again and reinstate themselves into their respective thrones.
I am still interested in what Szass Tam is doing with Thay. But sooner or later he would overreach; and eventually the old Thay would be restored, or a close resemblance of it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 20:45:09
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The alternative Thayan war described in this post is infinitely better than what happened, in my opinion! Also how the Spellplague may have influenced the Zulkirs' control over Thay...or a slave revolt during it and the reclaimation of the courntry by the Tharchions...*sigh*
Did I mention today that the 4th edition Realms kinda stinks to me? No? okay. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 20:48:50
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Given that some pre-Szass Tam zulkirs just vanished without trace, as I conjectured before, it's possible they have been acting as Hidden Guardians and one day will say enough is enough and kick the lich lord out. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2011 : 08:25:16
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I don't like that it was all the Zulkirs (and the Church of Kossuth...and every church except the Church of Bane?) vs. Szass Tam - he shouldn't alone have been that powerful imo. How the factions are described in Spellbound / Dreams of the Red Wizards is more of how
it should have played out. The different kinds of magic should have been able to balance each other out. As it appears to me undead are susceptible to so many things and during the Civil War all the other 7 schools (and the Church of Kossuth) would have focused their energy on combating undead. The magic he somehow had was really over the top when other spellcasters are supposed to be as powerful, similarly powerful, or even more powerful but never accomplish such feats. Why are all of his minions bound to him by magic, but it doesn't seem like the Zulkir of Enchantment's are? etc. etc. I enjoyed the novels but they were easy to criticize in the realm of internal consistency. Granted he killed the Zulkir of Transmutation so he wouldn't find out his plan to unmake the world - I still think one school shouldn't have been able to defeat all the rest just because people think the undead are cool.
In the wake of Szss Tam failing to unmake the world I think he should be brought low by many united forces. But I don't think it will happen because WotC seems to want a lich king just like (AKA to rip off the popularity of) Warcraft / World of Warcraft :(
A more logical civil war would have gone something like this:
Transmutation
Necromancy
Evocation
Church of Bane
vs.
Abjuration
Enchantment
Conjuration
Church of Kossuth
Neutral or flip floppy
Illusion
Divination
Other Churches
Possibly also with potential Zulkirs in every school switching sides. If you want to rule and are a necromancer, why wouldn't you switch sides? And vice versa. |
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 18 Oct 2011 08:59:14 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2011 : 09:07:06
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I don't like that it was all the Zulkirs (and the Church of Kossuth...and every church except the Church of Bane?) vs. Szass Tam - he shouldn't alone have been that powerful imo. How the factions are described in Spellbound / Dreams of the Red Wizards is more of how
it should have played out. The different kinds of magic should have been able to balance each other out.
I would like to note that it was not just sheer power that won him his crown. The Spellplague made magic unreliable. Despite their might, the zulkirs and their Red Wizard underlings found it difficult to cast most of their spells. Even Nevron himself, when he attempted to summon a myrmyxicus, failed at first, not by lack of concentration nor power, but due merely to the unreliability of the Art that time. Szass Tam, on the other hand, had Bane's help. Bane enabled him to work around the limitations of the shattered Weave, and through a magical mental web, Szass Tam was able to share such insight to his lackeys. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 18 Oct 2011 09:24:27 |
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Nightseer
Acolyte
45 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2011 : 11:09:56
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| Szass Tam. Enjoyable chap. |
Shar! |
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Favorite Zulkir
