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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 13:55:50
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Excellent, Paul! And good to hear from you again.
I have to quote these:
"The anti-hero is a one-man morality play. Whereas the villain and hero rarely face moral crisis (or when they do, it’s an ultimate moment in their progression as characters), the antihero is the moral crisis."
"... [It’s] more important than ever to take a deep dive into the psychology, to demonstrate the inner conflict. That’s because the contrary impulses inherent in the anti-hero need to make sense to the reader."
So true. I guess that's the reason it's quite a challenge to create anti-heroes. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Seabus Mythforger
Seeker
76 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 21:06:57
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| That's probably a main reason so many of the last few years of The Punisher comics have been horrible. |
~Seabus Mythforger,
Renegade Mage |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 21:08:46
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That's a great interview. Major props! 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 23:54:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
That's a great interview. Major props!
Cheers
Thanks, Erik. Appreciated.
Paul |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 01:47:30
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Great! More of those types of interviews please!  |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 01:48:23
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| Hey Paul, were you a Stone Cold Steve Austin fan at some point? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 14:41:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Hey Paul, were you a Stone Cold Steve Austin fan at some point?
Alisttair,
I was not, no. |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
731 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 17:22:35
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A really interesting interview and a nice and accurated description of the anti-hero. Too sad I haven't read the Erevis Cale, as they haven't been released in here  When I think of anti-hero I can't avoid thinking on Hajime Saito from Ruroni Kenshin, curiously enough he didn't search redemption A cool interview that gives some more insight in the anti-hero phenomena. |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 21:43:57
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Hey Paul, were you a Stone Cold Steve Austin fan at some point?
Alisttair,
I was not, no.
But...but he is an anti-hero.....he's bald like Erevis Cale...but...but....ah heck  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 21:10:33
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| Can the concept of anti-hero be applied to villains, like anti-villains? I mean, take Magneto from Marvel, he's a villain all right, but he is in a kinda gray area. He DOES make some sense in his reasoning, and maybe I'd do the same in his shoes. I'm sure I can find more examples, but he is the first that pops to mind. |
Edited by - Kilvan on 28 Sep 2011 21:11:09 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 21:40:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Can the concept of anti-hero be applied to villains, like anti-villains? I mean, take Magneto from Marvel, he's a villain all right, but he is in a kinda gray area. He DOES make some sense in his reasoning, and maybe I'd do the same in his shoes. I'm sure I can find more examples, but he is the first that pops to mind.
Karsus. Though I must say he's difficult to classify. He didn't deliberately plan to have thousands of "innocent" people die in his desperate attempt at saving his beloved empire. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 21:47:25
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| I don't think Karsus qualifies as a villain. He wasn't even evil, just very unwise (and a tad egocentric). |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 22:06:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I don't think Karsus qualifies as a villain. He wasn't even evil, just very unwise (and a tad egocentric).
He's become a villain more by circumstance than actual desire to do evil. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 22:07:21
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Paul,
Do you think anti-heroes are meant to have a tragic end? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 15:33:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Paul,
Do you think anti-heroes are meant to have a tragic end?
I don't, no, but I think the best ones have a redemptive end (and that's often a tragic one).
Paul |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 19:57:29
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| I think Magneto is a villain. But he's been in how many hundreds of stories written by how many different authors? I suspect that whether you think of him as a villain, an antihero, or something else depends on which of those many stories you read, and out of the ones you did read, which you enjoyed the most. |
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 21:07:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I think Magneto is a villain. But he's been in how many hundreds of stories written by how many different authors? I suspect that whether you think of him as a villain, an antihero, or something else depends on which of those many stories you read, and out of the ones you did read, which you enjoyed the most.
I agree with Richard. I'm not authority on the X-men, but I see Magneto as a villain, just an understandable, even sympathetic one (and aren't those the best kind?). |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 01:43:26
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In some ways Magneto is like Szass Tam. They both want to "change the world" to what's ideal to them. And the means they use are similar.
I agree with Paul that sympathetic villains are the best kind. Most people, I suppose, are sick and tired of the cackling idiot kind of villains. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 02:07:21
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| Karsus is like Magneto. He is not a homosapien, but a homosuperior. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 02:26:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Karsus is like Magneto. He is not a homosapien, but a homosuperior.
Karsus’s goal didn’t go beyond saving his dying empire. Magneto’s goal, on the other hand, was beyond saving his kind. He wanted to change the whole world--- he wanted to have all non-mutants slaughtered. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 02:38:13
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I must disagree with both comparaisons with Szass Tam and Karsus, but I won't go into details because I dont want this thread to become about Magneto or any other character. My point is, as Richard and Paul said, some villains, Magneto included, are villains, but not the typical evil-world-conquerer-innocent-killer villain. Psychopaths can make great villains, the Joker, Alex from Clockwork Orange or Voldemort comes to mind. These villains are to evilness what paladins are to goodness.
Anti-heroes, are not-so-shining as paladin, they tend to take obscure paths to achieve goals that end up being good. My idea is that this same reasoning could be applied to some villains, those who are not evil to the core, but who have evil designs. I wondered if it was fair to call these anti-villains.
Some examples: Jarlaxle, Obould Many-Arrows, Big Boss from Metal Gear, Leslat from Interview with a Vampire, Magus from Chrono Trigger, Dexter Morgan (not sure if he is an anti-hero or anti-villain), The phantom of the Opera. I could probably go on. Note that I try not to mix villains who suffered tragedies and turned evil (like most villains from Batman), and villains who are simply not so evil (kinda).
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Seabus Mythforger
Seeker
76 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 06:32:57
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I don't know that Jarlaxle can truly be counted as a villain, anti or otherwise. Neither is he a hero. Jarlaxle so far has played the most gray character I've ever read about. He is very much alike to Lestat from Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles. They both kind of want to be "good" but they're just really good at being "bad" and they rather like it. They push the limit as far as they can go in one direction and then find a new direction and do the exact same thing. Boundaries are simply obstacles to them. The sooner they can get past them the quicker they are to get bored. To paraphrase a quote from Heath Ledger's take on The Joker, "They're like dogs chasing a car. They wouldn't really know what to do if they caught it."
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~Seabus Mythforger,
Renegade Mage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 06:59:04
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Is the opposite an anti-villain? A fellow like Darth Vader perhaps? (And no, I don't mean sissy Anakin, I do mean Vader.)
Or is an anti-villain simply an anti-hero whose morality is a darker tone of grey? Within the context of D&D alignments, could there also be anti-neutral characters? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Sep 2011 07:00:47 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 11:36:52
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I'm a fan of anti-heroes, sort of. The only thing that sometimes makes me dislike and shun them is their tendency to brood a lot. Brooding is okay, as it is part of what makes one human. But when I see it splashed [uselessly] from one chapter to another, then... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 21:24:52
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| Psychological insight into the conflicts which motivate the central characters is useless? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Seabus Mythforger
Seeker
76 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 21:44:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'm a fan of anti-heroes, sort of. The only thing that sometimes makes me dislike and shun them is their tendency to brood a lot. Brooding is okay, as it is part of what makes one human. But when I see it splashed [uselessly] from one chapter to another, then...
I agree whole-heartedly! Brooding from time to time is part of what makes us human but sometimes it can be a bit much. Looking into the psychological profile of any particular character is what helps us as readers relate to the characters. But when the brooding becomes to much, my brain immediately associates it with books like Twilight and shows like The Vampire Diaries. It's part of why I love Drizzt so much. Yes, he definitely broods (even a bit more than I prefer) but it's not necessarily needless/useless brooding. It helps you understand why he's in a particular place morally. It's part of why I stopped reading Punisher comics. They became too much about what was going on in Frank Castle's head. Then they became too much about just the violence and there hasn't been a decent mix of the two since. |
~Seabus Mythforger,
Renegade Mage |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 18:43:26
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| Great stuff Paul. Also, I will be finishing Shadowrealm today...awesome book/series! |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 20:48:05
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Great stuff Paul. Also, I will be finishing Shadowrealm today...awesome book/series!
Thank you kindly, Entreri. :-) |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 21:15:00
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Great stuff Paul. Also, I will be finishing Shadowrealm today...awesome book/series!
Thank you kindly, Entreri. :-)
You are welcome. It is going to be a long wait until your next novel release |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Paul S. Kemp on Anti-Heroes
