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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Sep 2011 : 18:43:26
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Demons can be summoned to and banished from the Material Plane.
So how are devils treated? Are their material forms summoned and banished in the same fashion? Or can they genuinely get thoroughly whacked for good and killed to death on the Material?
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2011 : 18:54:21
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| I think they are treated the same way. Isn't this 'rule' applied to all non-native outsiders when killed on a foreign plane? At least that's how I do it in my games. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2011 : 21:04:26
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| It's been awhile since i have played D&D;, but i always thought devils and demons were pretty much the same with the exception being that devils are from the Nine Hells and demons are from the Abyss. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2011 : 21:04:48
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Which begs the question: Does a petitioner (dead faithful of a deity) actually choose his path in life, or is it predestined, and he is merely returning home?
If not, doesn't that mean that the essence of a being - the 'soul' if you will - travels to the plane it most likely resembles, which means that a repentant fiend (or any Outsider) could, theoretically, wind-up somewhere else if it had a 'change of heart'.
And bizarrely enough, the only example of such I can think of is when Little Nicky (from the movie of the same name) went to heaven instead of hell because of his actions. An Adam Sandler movie makes a piss-poor precedent-setter. 
There was some rules in AEG's Secrets that covered switching your home-plane, including some really esoteric way of severing yourself from the planes altogether. I don't recall the details, but I remember thinking that it was a whole lot of rules (and sacrifices) for very little gain, but AEG books tend to be that way; hit or miss (within the same tome).
But getting back to the original question - YES, Kilvan has the right of it, IIRC. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Sep 2011 21:05:56 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2011 : 21:21:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which begs the question: Does a petitioner (dead faithful of a deity) actually choose his path in life, or is it predestined, and he is merely returning home?
If not, doesn't that mean that the essence of a being - the 'soul' if you will - travels to the plane it most likely resembles, which means that a repentant fiend (or any Outsider) could, theoretically, wind-up somewhere else if it had a 'change of heart'.
And bizarrely enough, the only example of such I can think of is when Little Nicky (from the movie of the same name) went to heaven instead of hell because of his actions. An Adam Sandler movie makes a piss-poor precedent-setter.
There was some rules in AEG's Secrets that covered switching your home-plane, including some really esoteric way of severing yourself from the planes altogether. I don't recall the details, but I remember thinking that it was a whole lot of rules (and sacrifices) for very little gain, but AEG books tend to be that way; hit or miss (within the same tome).
But getting back to the original question - YES, Kilvan has the right of it, IIRC.
If only you could ask Spinoza what he thinks now. 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2011 : 22:27:03
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Pretty much all true outsiders are treated the same with respects to summoning and banishing. Where it varies is what happens if they're killed while physically present, and that varies wildly by edition. Some of the 2e Planescape books touched on the topic at length, and the late 3.x Fiendish Codex I had a nice examination wrt demons IIRC.
Tailor to your own games as always for what comes across as most interesting :) |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 03:20:02
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| I boldly append Shemmy's comments with the observation that devils and demons are collectively grouped as subtypes of "fiends". Insofar as good/evil wizards and priests are concerned there is little practical difference when it comes to summoning and dismissing them. Binding them is trickier though, devils tend to be constrained (as much as their evil allows) by contractual agreements whereas demons tend to only respect/fear/serve individuals of greater power than themselves. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 04:38:54
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Following my earlier train-of-thought (and seeing as how Shemmy was kind enough to add his esteemed opinion), I have something further to ponder on this topic...
If a petitioner travels to the Prime Material (for whatever reason - maybe on a mission from his deity), and is killed while on the Prime Material, then it would reappear within it's deity's home plane.
Which makes me question precisely where is the difference between the dead and the living in D&D? Technically, one can assume EVERYONE in a the D&D universe is already dead, and it would make no difference rules-wise. Its very close to the Hindu way of viewing reincarnation: you keep coming back until you get it right (which certainly applies to D&D, with all the PCs Rezzing).
Another thought - perhaps everyone always has one of those 'silver cords' when they travel from their home plane, but you can only see that cord within the Astral. So if mortal souls are already aligned with a certain godly domain/plane, then we (or rather, all the people IG) are all already tethered to that plane all the time.
If that were the case, then what a mess a Planes-walker makes of his cord over time, unless the cord re-aligns to the home-plane with each jump (rather then being dragged all over the cosmos like some endless ball of yarn). On the other hand, this may be why some uber-beings (like the Sojourner) eventually start to 'yearn for home' - the line becomes too thin and tugs at their heart-strings.
I think, perhaps, I am trying to picture things 'beyond mortal ken', and am over-simplifying that connection the soul has with the almighty.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 05:08:01
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D&D does offer creatures living, dead, unliving, undead, and various shades between or beyond, plus a few varieties of reincarnation and a preponderance of pantheons just to keep things fresh. Yet it's generally fairly easy to achieve a consensus agreement about whether a given entity is actually alive; I would think that most people and even nearly-immortal fiends could be considered living beings, regardless of where they might find themselves in the planes.
[Edit]
Silver cords connecting to psychic points of origin are manifested through the common shortcuts people use when travelling across the astral. There are a great many alternate methods for traversing the planes, and for traversing the astral itself, without being anchored by a silver cord. At least within some D&D editions. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Sep 2011 05:13:18 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 05:28:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Following my earlier train-of-thought (and seeing as how Shemmy was kind enough to add his esteemed opinion), I have something further to ponder on this topic...
If a petitioner travels to the Prime Material (for whatever reason - maybe on a mission from his deity), and is killed while on the Prime Material, then it would reappear within it's deity's home plane.
Which makes me question precisely where is the difference between the dead and the living in D&D? Technically, one can assume EVERYONE in a the D&D universe is already dead, and it would make no difference rules-wise. Its very close to the Hindu way of viewing reincarnation: you keep coming back until you get it right (which certainly applies to D&D, with all the PCs Rezzing).
Another thought - perhaps everyone always has one of those 'silver cords' when they travel from their home plane, but you can only see that cord within the Astral. So if mortal souls are already aligned with a certain godly domain/plane, then we (or rather, all the people IG) are all already tethered to that plane all the time.
If that were the case, then what a mess a Planes-walker makes of his cord over time, unless the cord re-aligns to the home-plane with each jump (rather then being dragged all over the cosmos like some endless ball of yarn). On the other hand, this may be why some uber-beings (like the Sojourner) eventually start to 'yearn for home' - the line becomes too thin and tugs at their heart-strings.
I think, perhaps, I am trying to picture things 'beyond mortal ken', and am over-simplifying that connection the soul has with the almighty.
I think you might be over-complicating things, not over-simplifying them. Astral travel with a silver cord is one type of travel through the Astral, and there are specific reasons for that "tether" so to speak. You're tethered to your body, not necessarily the plane. You resonate with a home plane (usually the prime material), but that is a separate issue from the "silver cord" thing.
There are other ways of traveling the Astral and the planes without having a silver cord.
Also, just because you originate in the prime material and "resonate" with it, that doesn't mean there's some kind of alignment-dependent determination on where your soul will end up once you're dead.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 19:23:48
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Thank ye, folks.
Anybody have a sourcebook that discusses the dismissal of demons/devils? I'd like to learn more about the subject straight from the sources. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 23:20:06
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Anybody have a sourcebook that discusses the dismissal of demons/devils? I'd like to learn more about the subject straight from the sources.
It's mostly dealt with in practically any tome that focuses on either baatezu and/or tanar'ri -- in other words, most of the older PLANESCAPE sources. Though the 3e Fiendish Codex volumes offer some possibilities, much like the 4e Demonomicon.
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
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Devils vs. Demons
