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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 12:36:33
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Many fantasy novels always enmesh a romantic subplot into the main plot, and FR is no exception. There's Return of the Archwizards, Erevis Cale, Starlight and Shadows, Counselors and Kings, Frostfell, Shield of Weeping Ghosts, The Haunted Lands, The Watercourse, War of the Spider Queen, and many more. In one way or another, such subplot did help add color to the stories---they helped made the characters as real as possible, drowning the characters into confusion and more problems or allowing them to enjoy happiness in their short existence.
But what if there is no romantic subplot in fantasy (FR) novels? What if the focus is more on the good versus evil or evil versus greater evil conflict; on battles, betrayals, friendships, adventures? Will the novels be more interesting and engaging, or will there hardly be any difference?
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 14:09:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Many fantasy novels always enmesh a romantic subplot into the main plot, and FR is no exception. There's Return of the Archwizards, Erevis Cale, Starlight and Shadows, Counselors and Kings, Frostfell, Shield of Weeping Ghosts, The Haunted Lands, The Watercourse, War of the Spider Queen, and many more. In one way or another, such subplot did help add color to the stories---they helped made the characters as real as possible, drowning the characters into confusion and more problems or allowing them to enjoy happiness in their short existence.
But what if there is no romantic subplot in fantasy (FR) novels? What if the focus is more on the good versus evil or evil versus greater evil conflict; on battles, betrayals, friendships, adventures? Will the novels be more interesting and engaging, or will there hardly be any difference?
Given the fact that Forgetten Realms books are so short, I think they might actually benefit from a lack of a romantic sub-plot. This would give authors a few more pages to spend on doing anything else to advance the main plot, or provide background info. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Edited by - Artemas Entreri on 20 Sep 2011 14:30:00 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 14:28:05
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| Plenty of FR novels lack a romantic subplot. I don't think that the setting as a whole should dictate whether or not there's a romantic subplot -- the needs of each individual story should dictate that. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 14:41:31
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Given the fact that Forgetten Realms books are so short, I think they might actually benefit from a lack of a romantic sub-plot. This would give authors a few more pages to spend on doing anything else to advance the main plot, or provide background info.
My sentiments, exactly. I don't dislike romantic subplots. [Heh, I read romance books sometimes.] But in the case of FR fiction, 300-something pages is too short to tell a really engrossing adventure story or an epic tale.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 14:51:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Given the fact that Forgetten Realms books are so short, I think they might actually benefit from a lack of a romantic sub-plot. This would give authors a few more pages to spend on doing anything else to advance the main plot, or provide background info.
My sentiments, exactly. I don't dislike romantic subplots. [Heh, I read romance books sometimes.] But in the case of FR fiction, 300-something pages is too short to tell a really engrossing adventure story or an epic tale.
At this exact moment people on the Danielle Steel or Nora Roberts Forum are discussing the addition of a fantasy subplot to their works  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 14:59:42
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 Don't tell me you're a fan? I've read some of their novels. Decent, but hardly remarkable. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 15:01:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Don't tell me you're a fan? I've read some of their novels. Decent, but hardly remarkable.
Ha ha i have never read a romance novel. I'm not saying they are not enjoyable...but i have too many fantasy books to read first. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 16:41:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Plenty of FR novels lack a romantic subplot. I don't think that the setting as a whole should dictate whether or not there's a romantic subplot -- the needs of each individual story should dictate that.
A 300-something-page novel is hardly enough to tell a grand adventure story. Adding a romantic sub-plot to it makes the story more lacking in the areas that matter most. Unless, of course, WotC sets the limit page count higher: 700-1,000+. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 16:43:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Many fantasy novels always enmesh a romantic subplot into the main plot, and FR is no exception. There's Return of the Archwizards, Erevis Cale, Starlight and Shadows, Counselors and Kings, Frostfell, Shield of Weeping Ghosts, The Haunted Lands, The Watercourse, War of the Spider Queen, and many more. In one way or another, such subplot did help add color to the stories---they helped made the characters as real as possible, drowning the characters into confusion and more problems or allowing them to enjoy happiness in their short existence.
But what if there is no romantic subplot in fantasy (FR) novels? What if the focus is more on the good versus evil or evil versus greater evil conflict; on battles, betrayals, friendships, adventures? Will the novels be more interesting and engaging, or will there hardly be any difference?
I certainly don't think FR fiction needs romantic subplots per se, but when they are there it usually adds a lot. Too much concentration on battle starts to turn me off, although I think we all expect the hero(es) and the villain(s) to go a few rounds before the final climactic scenes.
Honestly, though, FR is at its best when it's about complex human (or elfy, or dwarfy, etc...) interaction and drama. I think that's generally true of any fiction, whether it's fantasy or sci-fi, or even general fiction. Romances that make sense, and are really truly part of the story development, those are golden. Cunningham does this incredibly well, for instance, with Liriel and Fyodor, and also with Danilo and Arilyn. They really make sense and really enrich the overall story.
Deep friendships and families serve a similar dramatic function: Cale and Jak, Drizzt and his pals, or the bonds between the Seven Sisters.
Drama is often (usually, I'd say) more important than unfolding the secrets of some magical McGuffin or describing a battle.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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MalariaMoon
Learned Scribe
324 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 17:25:24
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| Bigger page counts is the answer. I'd like to see the FR authors let off the reins. Keep it canon, but let's take it in more interesting directions! |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 19:05:18
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Personally, I like the romantic sub-plots. In fact, I'll take it onew step further thanentreri3478 did and say that I'd like to see a set of Realms romance stories combined in a single book - just to see how romance is handled in various Realms kingdoms. We know a little bit about romance in Cormyr (purple scarves and such), but I'd really like to see a book of romance short stories that compares romance in the dales, Sembis, Chondath, the Sword Coast and even Mulmaster or Thay.
My Realms campaigns often feature romance - either between PC's or PC/NPC. If we had more information on romance customs in the Realms, I'd be able to add more detail and custom to these role-playing encounters. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 19:22:59
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"Saving the Princess", the love triangle with Guinevere, Helen of Troy, etc, etc... good stories always revolve around some idiot forgetting there are plenty of fish in the sea.
In other words, the romantic sub-plot is a trope of the Fantasy genre, and is here to stay. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 19:27:24
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This is an interesting question. I find myself bored with novels that feature no romantic subplot, or do so only in an off-hand way (i.e. well, the main characters are still alive, so I guess they get together).
Romance (or, more specifically, sex/desire) is one of those major things that people are drawn to. I think all novels/movies/TV (not just fantasy) would lose something by not at least nodding to it. Might as well write a fantasy novel without action, or without magic.
So yeah, I think it's a fundamental part of the genre.
On that note, the degree of "romantic subplot" is significant. For instance, the romance is pretty darn minor in Erevis Cale, the majority of the Drizzt series, Return of the Archwizards, etc (though I found Erevis Cale amazingly BROmantic.) And all of those are definitely strong fantasy stories.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 22:38:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Halidan, you may be onto something! I LOVE the idea of a "Romance of the Realms" anthology! Let's see what goes on in some of the off moments of the lives of our heroes/heroines for a change! How did Danilo manage to snare Arilyn? How many lovers has Elminster REALLY had? That sort of thing. It would be fascinating, I'm sure.
Just as long as it didn't get bogged down in unfortunate issues, I'd agree. Seeing the moments when our heroes are being themselves in the quiet times could be quite enjoyable.
Though I think a lot of them could be summed up briefly...
DRIZZT: What are these strange hormone things? Resist! Resist!
CATTI-BRIE: I have got to get you out of that mental chastity belt thing you've got going on.
DRIZZT: ...Well, okay. If you give me a few years to brood on it first.
DANILO: *clowns about*
ARILYN: *sigh*
DANILO: Let me sing a song about you!
ARILYN: No.
DANILO: Pleeeeease?
ARILYN: Are you still here?
DANILO: Pretty please with a moonblade on top?
ARILYN: ...Sure thing, sugar.
ELMINSTER: Ye are peeking! *zaps author into ash*
BUSTY MAGE LADY: Oh, Elminster... *swoon*
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Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 22:57:06
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The best novels tend to be about people, people quite often fall in love - sometimes at rather unopportune times, so by and large I'd say it's likely that a novel will become less if you remove any romance from it.
Which isn't to say that there has to be a romance element, but if the hero(ine) is just walking through a bunch of set-pieces without showing any kind of attachment to anything, at least I will quickly lose interest (which would explain why I can't stand most modern action and "horror" films). |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 23:51:18
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| I like multiple threads in Realms fiction, which doesn't have to mean hierarchical 'main plots' and 'subplots' -- starkly singular, linear Realms stories miss out on the Realms' texture and don't ring true to me. Given that, what Kajehase said. |
Edited by - Faraer on 21 Sep 2011 02:17:34 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 01:30:09
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quote:
Originally posted by MalariaMoon
Bigger page counts is the answer. I'd like to see the FR authors let off the reins. Keep it canon, but let's take it in more interesting directions!
Yes. Unfortunately, it appears like WotC is unlikely to take that risk...Sales issues and all that. So while I wouldn't exactly like seeing a romantic subplot scrapped, if it means giving more focus on other more significant elements in a rather short novel, then I would still welcome it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 01:57:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
This is an interesting question. I find myself bored with novels that feature no romantic subplot, or do so only in an off-hand way (i.e. well, the main characters are still alive, so I guess they get together).
Romance (or, more specifically, sex/desire) is one of those major things that people are drawn to. I think all novels/movies/TV (not just fantasy) would lose something by not at least nodding to it. Might as well write a fantasy novel without action, or without magic.
So yeah, I think it's a fundamental part of the genre.
On that note, the degree of "romantic subplot" is significant. For instance, the romance is pretty darn minor in Erevis Cale, the majority of the Drizzt series, Return of the Archwizards, etc (though I found Erevis Cale amazingly BROmantic.) And all of those are definitely strong fantasy stories.
Cheers
I also like weaving a romantic subplot into my novels. Most of my work have it. But considering my target audience, I guess it just makes sense. And I guess I am also lucky that I could write to as much as 800 pages.
FR is another story. True, romantic subplots sometimes work well into the story that the reader finds them as important as the main plot, as in the case of Starlight and Shadows.
However, I feel like the degree of focus that the author gives it is at times rather too much that it borders on unnecessary. I would mention the Tammith and Bareris romance in The Haunted Lands trilogy. First, let me be clear that I like Richard and his style and I loved that series. It's just that given the intricacies of the plots and the hugeness of the cast, I felt the said romance somehow bogged the story down. It was interesting and even moving. But if I were to choose between seeing it and giving, say, Szass Tam, the zulkirs, Aoth, and Jhesri more screen time, I'd rather have the latter. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 14:39:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
This is an interesting question. I find myself bored with novels that feature no romantic subplot, or do so only in an off-hand way (i.e. well, the main characters are still alive, so I guess they get together).
Romance (or, more specifically, sex/desire) is one of those major things that people are drawn to. I think all novels/movies/TV (not just fantasy) would lose something by not at least nodding to it. Might as well write a fantasy novel without action, or without magic.
So yeah, I think it's a fundamental part of the genre.
On that note, the degree of "romantic subplot" is significant. For instance, the romance is pretty darn minor in Erevis Cale, the majority of the Drizzt series, Return of the Archwizards, etc (though I found Erevis Cale amazingly BROmantic.) And all of those are definitely strong fantasy stories.
Cheers
I also like weaving a romantic subplot into my novels. Most of my work have it. But considering my target audience, I guess it just makes sense. And I guess I am also lucky that I could write to as much as 800 pages.
FR is another story. True, romantic subplots sometimes work well into the story that the reader finds them as important as the main plot, as in the case of Starlight and Shadows.
However, I feel like the degree of focus that the author gives it is at times rather too much that it borders on unnecessary. I would mention the Tammith and Bareris romance in The Haunted Lands trilogy. First, let me be clear that I like Richard and his style and I loved that series. It's just that given the intricacies of the plots and the hugeness of the cast, I felt the said romance somehow bogged the story down. It was interesting and even moving. But if I were to choose between seeing it and giving, say, Szass Tam, the zulkirs, Aoth, and Jhesri more screen time, I'd rather have the latter.
Ahh romance. I still remember the first time i decapitated my vampire girlfriend only to have her come back to "life" again. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 14:46:23
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Ahh romance. I still remember the first time i decapitated my vampire girlfriend only to have her come back to "life" again.
True Love breaks any barrier. Nothing, not even undeath, can stop it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 16:50:01
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Ahh romance. I still remember the first time i decapitated my vampire girlfriend only to have her come back to "life" again.
Soooooo many jokes here, but all totally inappropriate.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 18:14:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Ahh romance. I still remember the first time i decapitated my vampire girlfriend only to have her come back to "life" again.
Soooooo many jokes here, but all totally inappropriate.
The good jokes are always inappropriate  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 20:06:57
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Doesn't it really come down to how good it is?
I'm not a big fan of Romantic sub-plots, but I have never minded them... when DONE RIGHT.
In my life I have encountered many, MANY things that I wasn't fond of, but liked them when presented a certain way (spinach comes to mind).
It all comes down to how well something is written, weather or not you will like it, or at least tolerate it. The details do not matter nearly as much as how much you are enjoying what you are reading, ragardless.
I ABSOLUTELY DETEST highly-detailed combat scenes that go on for pages (in the RW, mortal combat between two opponents rarely lasts more then a few seconds), and yet RAS remains the ONLY FR author whom I own ALL of his novels, and thoroughly enjoy the Drizzt stories, DESPITE not liking Drizzt himself!
If that's not a testament to true talent, I don't know what is. If you got it, you can write about anything. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 20:38:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Doesn't it really come down to how good it is?
And how long. Even if it's done right, if it's too long that it already de-emphasizes the adventure/epic battle/war which is supposed to be the novel's focus, then I'd rather not have it at all. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 22:47:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
But what if there is no romantic subplot in fantasy (FR) novels? What if the focus is more on the good versus evil or evil versus greater evil conflict; on battles, betrayals, friendships, adventures? Will the novels be more interesting and engaging, or will there hardly be any difference?
I could get into more gritty, exploratory novels where the protagonists are more into discovery, exploration and defending themselves against whatever may be there than they are into sidebar romantic proclivities, even if married and adventuring together.
Discovering new discoveries in previously undiscovered areas of the Realms should give enough action, downtime activities, and party interactions to get to know the characters all, without really getting to know the characters, if you know what I mean... |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
Edited by - Varl on 21 Sep 2011 22:48:02 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2011 : 03:50:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Ahh romance. I still remember the first time i decapitated my vampire girlfriend only to have her come back to "life" again.
True Love breaks any barrier. Nothing, not even undeath, can stop it.
My mind went to very bad places with that remark, Dennis.
As to romantic subplots, I don't mind them, as long as they don't diminish other aspects of the story. At the same time, throwing it out there at random (i.e. "they get together at the end") is too diminishing, and at that point I tend to think you should just remove it altogether and devote the page space to other, more important aspects. I guess the trick is to find a happy medium (especially if you're a ghost or spirit looking for love and companionship). |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2011 : 04:47:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
I guess the trick is to find a happy medium (especially if you're a ghost or spirit looking for love and companionship).
Most people prefer a tragic romance. More poignant, unforgettable, and all that crap. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2011 : 21:44:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Doesn't it really come down to how good it is?
And how long. Even if it's done right, if it's too long that it already de-emphasizes the adventure/epic battle/war which is supposed to be the novel's focus, then I'd rather not have it at all.
True enough - I concede the point. 
I can think of two VERY long series I lost interest in, despite how very well they were written, simply because I could no longer keep track of the unending, Machiavellian sub-plots, and the infinite cast of characters to support them.
Even The NeverEnding Story had an ending. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 01:01:47
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| And thank the gods for that.... On a more -on-topic note, I personally happen to like a romantic entanglement that twines well with the main focus of the story. What many folks seem to forget is that as often as not, the romance IS part of that main plot, in that it is the interactions of major characters reacting to whatever outside threat, quest, or whatever it is they are dealing with. For heaven's sake, Romancing the Stone and Jewel of the Nile were just that- romances on adveturing quests. It's a standard fiction rule- throw two people of the opposite sex into a stessful situation, add a dose of danger, and chemistry sparks fly!! |
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Scrapping the Romantic Subplot
