| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Sep 2011 : 10:07:31
|
Perhaps centuries of existence taught him that nothing "productive" could result from manifesting rage. [Or maybe he does yoga regularly, having Larloch as the instructor. Now that's something worth seeing.]
Speaking of losing it, I do like the following scene from Undead. 'Tis one of the reasons I love Lallara.
quote:
The circle of abjurers recited the final line of their incantation, and power whined through the air. Some of the shrouds attached to the foremast snapped. But the cloud-thing across the water continued devouring every sentient being it could seize, exactly the same as before.
Aoth was disappointed, but not surprised. Lallara and her subordinates had tried thrice before with the same lack of success.
The zulkir pivoted and lashed the back of her hand across a female Red Wizard's mouth. Her rings cut, and the younger woman flinched back with bloody lips.
"Useless imbeciles!" Lallara snarled. Then she looked at Aoth, and, to his amazement, gave him a fleeting hint of a smile. It was the first such moment in all his years of service. "There. That made me feel a trifle better, but it didn't help our situation, did it?"
|
Every beginning has an end. |
 |
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2011 : 19:08:26
|
Emotions are always fascinating when it comes to undead. Usually, most emotions are defined and colored by one's current biological experiences. In undeath, do the emotions that one had in life become fixed? Slower to change? In shedding one's mortality, would emotions go cold as the undead would no longer be shackled to the baser experiences of the flesh?
Vampires, of course, have almost always been written in passionate ways. But they are also closer to life than most other undead, and their sensory experience is often heightened (particularly with respect to sex/love/passion, even if they can't engage in sex like Anne Rice vamps).
On the other hand, skeletons, Zombies, and perhaps even liches, might not have physical feelings or strong emotions as their flesh continues to decay, and they might become colder and more purely logical as their memories of living fade with the passage of time.
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2011 : 22:54:06
|
Re: "In undeath, do the emotions that one had in life become fixed? Slower to change? In shedding one's mortality, would emotions go cold as the undead would no longer be shackled to the baser experiences of the flesh?"
I don't think so, Therise. In the 1e sourcebook Lords of Darkness, in the introduction written by Ed Greenwood, he confirmed my suspicions that in the Realms, intelligent undead are capable of all the emotions & alignments that the living have. I'm sure this is especially true for liches, who have all the mental faculties & emotions and control to go with them. This unlike vampires & ghouls/ghasts, who must fight the urge to be evil bred in their flesh (akin to the fight within a Bhaalspawn's soul) in order to have the same type of control.
I recently learned that in BG1, the skeleton warriors have something to say when you click on them (and it's not comedic either, like when you click on bears & chickens). This denotes intelligence as per other intelligent undead, and unlike generic undead skeletons & zombies. And upon reading the 2e Monstrous Manual entry on them, they indeed do have intelligence; in the 15-16 range. That's exceptional; they're smarter than most people you'd meet, albeit enspelled & controlled beyond their will.
Also in Planescape: Torment, a game seemingly written as much by Ed as it was Chris Avellone (Ed has gone uncredited for much published 2e Planescape lore), within Sigil there's an undead community shared by ghouls, zombies & skeletons. The ghouls are as they are in the Realms, but the skeletons can speak too, and have a clear intelligence. The zombies on the other hand can't speak clearly, but they do display an intelligence, and are more focused on feeling emotions.
I guess what we can take from this is that generic skeletons & zombies do indeed have emotions, but not the clear thought or means to communicate them clearly, save for a spellcaster employing a "Speak with Dead" spell. Their expressions are further limited by a spellcaster creating or summoning them, taking control of their will & mental faculties to order them about; 'deadening' them further, if you will. |
Edited by - bladeinAmn on 10 Sep 2011 22:56:16 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 00:34:57
|
Shadows are fueled by fear and hatred of the living, wraiths by vengeful rage against the living, ghasts by hunger for living flesh. Ghosts are sometimes explained as being echoes of consciousness who can be driven by whatever powerful emotions were imprinted upon them at the moment of their death. These are all generally classified as "mindless" undead, and it's true that their intellectual or cognitive capacities seem diminished or entirely absent, yet they are still capable (endlessly driven) by some partial facet of the emotional array they possessed in life. Not to mention that whatever irrelevant remnants of humanity they retain were burned away by their twisted contact with negative energy or shadowstuff or lower planar vileness.
Vampires are sentient and can be emotionally complex (at least when well fed), although they are in essence an entirely different species, a predatory one, and they are also in some ways comparable to victims of curses.
All living things instinctively recognize and revile things undead, unliving, unnatural. Many humans are blind to their intuition and senses (and become food for undeads, unless they trust their guard dogs and spooked horses), some humans are able to overcome these instincts or are even sickly fascinated by them (and become Necromancers), a rare few are motivated to extremes and actively hunt the undead. I suspect that thinking undead, who were after all once living, are similarly compelled by their own instincts ... I doubt there'd be as many vampires around if these instincts could be easily suppressed.
If you think about it, even a lowly zombie is an individual who died, then had his soul forcibly shackled under the will of some Necromancer sort as the animating force for the shambling rotting corpse that was once his body. Does his soul suffer some sort of spiritual lobotomy, having identity and memory and essential self mystically butchered away, rendering all that he was into nothing more than a semi-mindless husk barely able to feed itself? Or does the soul retain what he once was, subjugated and forced to witness the horrible existence and deeds he is powerlessly compelled to obey? Surely there must be some emotional content there?
Liches seem (to me) to focus only on magic and power, it is what sustains them, they probably experience some sort of thrill or joy when they're able to obtain it, they probably experience some sort of frustration or anger when they are denied. I assume they're as variable in unlife as they were in life; some might eschew all emotion and focus on pure cold intellect, others might work their magical craft through expressing their passions. Yet I doubt that liches think and feel the same way they did when alive, the liching process probably alters their minds as much as their bodies, the traumas of death and of soul transfer must have some impact (see above comment about the living being repulsed by the undead), they were deliberately reshaped into vessels of pure eldritch power, in human terms they might be judged entirely insane.
To top it off, Larloch is actually described as being absolutely insane, even by lich standards. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Sep 2011 00:48:28 |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 00:37:57
|
It's something of a pet peeve of mine that villain and antagonist are not the same thing; a villain can very well be the protagonist of a story(I've played as one multiple times), and personally I feel that when done well, they make for better protagonists than heroes do. But that's just me.
As for Larloch's title of The Shadow King, I had always figured it was an artifact from an earlier point in his unlife when the prospect of ruling held more appeal to him than it does now, and it just stuck. Either that or it was just something bestowed on him; an epithet used to describe a being who's plans are shrouded and who holds great power. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 02:32:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
On the other hand, skeletons, Zombies, and perhaps even liches, might not have physical feelings or strong emotions as their flesh continues to decay, and they might become colder and more purely logical as their memories of living fade with the passage of time.
Szass Tam could "feel" pain. He nearly crumbled when he tried to see the world in nine dimensions, and he felt pain like no other when his skull cracked as Bane bestowed him power. So if he's capable of feeling pain, then he must be capable of wrath as well. Why he chooses not to show it must be, again, due to his prolonged existence which taught him that such unhealthy manifestation of strong emotion would be self-destructive and totally unproductive. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 02:35:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
I guess what we can take from this is that generic skeletons & zombies do indeed have emotions, but not the clear thought or means to communicate them clearly, save for a spellcaster employing a "Speak with Dead" spell. Their expressions are further limited by a spellcaster creating or summoning them, taking control of their will & mental faculties to order them about; 'deadening' them further, if you will.
Indeed. It is true not only in FR fiction, but in other settings as well, like Diablo [wraiths and ghosts summoned by necromancers in that world are more "cooperative" (thus the summoner enjoys less exertion of will) when their task is something they approve of]. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 11 Sep 2011 02:39:40 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 12:51:19
|
Note that Szass Tam also dedicated himself to several decades of extensive mental preparation; he retrained himself to think and view the world with utter disdain, contempt, disgust, disregard, dismissal. He focussed on the task with a lich's superhumanly singleminded determination, since it was after all a key element in correctly executing a complicated magic ritual. I might even be said that he ultimately failed to achieve his idealized mental state; although it could of course easily be argued that his penultimate failure stemmed from external factors rather than his mental incapacity. But compare this to Malark, a living individual (albeit a remarkable one) who managed to achieve a similar state of emotion in substantially less time, possibly because such emotions are just a natural part of being alive.
Can liches be affected by the fear and emotion spells? |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 12:56:31
|
He fears Larloch, possibly the only being in the multiverse he would never ever dare mess with. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 13:00:52
|
I can just imagine Szass's DM now: "You failed your save, eh? Well, you can't tell which spell he cast on you, likely some kind of minor enchantment. But this is terrifying, you know you should flee because you've got no chance opposing his magic, he's evidently as powerful as Larloch."
The only canon reference I know of which mentions any interaction between Szass and Larloch is in Netheril. The impression I gained from rereading the passages suggests that Szass was certainly apprehensive (he knew very well, at the time, that he was in the presence of a being of superior power), but he really seemed more excited than fearful, almost as if he were trembling with anxiety because he was on the verge of discovering lost troves of magical lore to add to his own power. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Sep 2011 13:10:34 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 13:42:06
|
As there's no clear explanation as to the cause of the "trembling," I guess we could see it either way: fear or excitement. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 13:48:31
|
| One of the 4e realms guides mentions that Larloch let Tam borrow a powerful artifact, some kind of throne if memory serves. Iseem to recall some suggestion that Tam was serving or at least doing favors for Larloch. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 13:54:25
|
That's Thakorsil's Seat, which Tam used to imprison Yaphyll. Though ironically, he fell victim to it as well. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 20:00:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That's Thakorsil's Seat, which Tam used to imprison Yaphyll. Though ironically, he fell victim to it as well.
Also, the death moon orb. Which of course, blew up in his face |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 01:18:31
|
| ... and Larloch's Lucid Lenses of Bifocular Reading. Although most people are unaware Szass possesses this most powerful artifact because he's very self-conscious about using them in public. It's a little embarassing to admit your eyesight isn't as good as it was 400 years ago. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 12:34:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
... and Larloch's Lucid Lenses of Bifocular Reading. Although most people are unaware Szass possesses this most powerful artifact because he's very self-conscious about using them in public. It's a little embarassing to admit your eyesight isn't as good as it was 400 years ago.
Does he really need it? I thought spells that enhance vision are mere cantrips to high level wizards. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 13:41:29
|
Does Larloch have dracolich servants? |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Larloch: The Shadow King?
