| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 06:54:50
|
I know that Incubi and Succubi are the "official" sex demons in the D&D world, but here we also have these Erinyes' and even the Lilitus, and to a lesser extent, Lamias. Where confusion and frustration come in: Succubi have been appearing as only females throughout the history of D&D and they've had their incubus counterparts, who have generally gotten the short end of the stick (either never being mentioned or being described as hideous while succubi are beautiful). Now succubi have a male form (or they are either both genders), but are still a succubus as a devil, yet now we have the incubus who has appeared as all male and is a demon. What sense does this make? Succubi and incubi are two different genders of the same demon. They MAY(?) be able to take form of the other for awhile, but are not the same. So why does this all happen. For another matter, why haven't male seductive demons ever been portrayed in the sourcebooks in pictures? We have seen millions upon millions of pictures of scantily clad women, yet men cannot be erotic/seductive/sensual? You've got me...
Now to the Erinyes. I love their concept as fallen angels in a way, but why are they seductive like incubi and succubi? I can see them being extremely attractive to be seductive, by why in the way that succubi and icubi are? Here's another thing that confuses (and angers me if the former is true):
Erinyes look like extremely beautiful women with large feathered wings, usually in red hues, and glowing red eyes. They are typically armed with a longsword and a shining red longbow. An erinyes stands about 6 feet tall and weighs about 150 pounds. Erinyes also speak Infernal, Celestial, and Draconic.
Rumor in the underworld tells that the first erinyes were angels who fell from their lofty heights because of some temptation or misdeed. Now, the skies of the Nine Hells are litterered with their descendants. Erinyes serve as scouts, servants, and even concubines for powerful devils. Unlike other devils, erinyes appear attractive to humans, resembling very comely women or men. They’re not above taking advantage of being mistaken for the celestials that legend says they once were.
Now, if the former is true, then why did they even bother making Erinyes? This is basically the same argument as the succubi incubi, where men should be able to be sexy, and appear that way. I love the Erinyes and all, but why must they all possibly be female?
Next argument: Why are all of the liltus' female? If Malcanthet wants to have so many people seduced, then why doesn't she have male ones? You can't seduce a male with a lilitus if he likes men, and it would be the same way around if the lilitus were all male. I can understand that Malcanthet would have a group of them being the Radiant Sisters, but again, they don't all have to be female.
I believe the only ones that make sense to me are the lamias. Even though they hardly factor into this. I do believe that there are too many "Lolths" in FR, or people are just afraid of a gender being something that they aren't used to seeing.
*releases steam*
|
|
|
Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 08:03:09
|
| Funny. I thought Incubi were taken out in 3.x edition and there were only succubi and erinyes left on demon and devil sides. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
|
 |
|
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 13:27:22
|
| In the Demonomicon of Iggwilv, Malcanthet and her succubi were detailed as well as things called incubi. I would say that they are the farthest things from incubi. |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 15:24:23
|
Every edition does the demons/devils differently, particularly the so called "sex demons." I personally like the erinyes rising above the "sexy demon girl" category and becoming at least a little closer to what she was in Greek mythology (look it up on Wikipedia), and I run succubi/incubi as the same thing and on either side (devils vs. demons), depending on the individual succubus.
E.D., you seem to be hitting on a significant issue in the industry, which is "where are all the sexy guys?"
This came up when one of my very male, very gay players wanted to find a "sexy half-elf rogue" miniature and was basically unable to do so. (He finally ended up with a Japanese mini, btw.)
I think it speaks to two things, to a lesser or greater extent:
1) Game companies' marketing departments at least think their audience is primarily male/straight, which makes two things true (in their minds): scantily-clad/"sexy" women will be successful as a marketing device, while "sexy" men will not (or even turn people off a product). I personally applaud efforts to reach out to female and male/not-straight gamers, who definitely do exist (I have run a whole campaign full of them), but it's one of those things that is slowly shifting. WotC is not at the forefront of this effort, so it's really not a surprise (IMO) that they've dropped the ball somewhat.
2) There is a certain intrinsic sexism prevalent in D&D since its founding. It has decreased over the years, but gender objectification was a pretty big part of early D&D and its echoes persist to this day. This is just the tip of the iceberg of a discussion, so I'll leave it there unless someone wants to discuss it in more detail. (It's kind of beyond the scope of this conversation.)
Cheers
|
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 15:46:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
Funny. I thought Incubi were taken out in 3.x edition and there were only succubi and erinyes left on demon and devil sides.
In 4e, IIRC, they combined them all into succubi. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
|
|
|
|
MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 15:46:53
|
You don't need to be gay to appreciate goodlooking guys in artwork…
I for myself started with 3.5 and ruled simply that there were male succubi, called incubi (same stats, different name). They stuck being devils. I didn't bring in sex-demons, iirc. Don't know why, I think the campaigns that were high-level enough to include that kind of monsters didn't need demons, but devils. Dunno… |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
---
When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
|
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 16:08:07
|
Well, as far as D&D mythology goes, you may not quite like the answer.
Succubi are the sexual seducers-corrupters: their shapeshift ability has never had a duration, but is an "at will" ability they can use to appear in the way that will best accomplish their goals. Although their natural demon form is like a human female with leathery wings, horns, etc, they can shapeshift into beautiful male or female forms. Whatever they need to get the job done with seduction and corruption to sin. Sometimes, people have called them incubi, but that's really something of a misnomer (at least in D&D). Up until 4th Edition, succubi were always classed as demons, but now they're classed as devils (and yes, the change makes little sense, particularly when you consider the Blood War... but anyway...).
Incubi are the rapists/sex-murderer demons: their natural form is male-like, with horns, etc. They are better at melee, are quicker and more agile than succubi, and their goal is to take what they want, right now" whether the target wants to or not. They revel in depraved killing and blood. As you said, they were detailed in Dragon #353 along with Malcanthet. But they appear much, much earlier in Dragon #54 as well. They too can shapechange at will, but again they're not focused on seduction.
Erinyes can also appear as male or female, but they're pulled from a different mythological origin. Rather than being Western European-derived sex-demons, Erinyes are Greek-derived vengeance demons based on the furies. Although they are attractive (often with boobs out) and serve as consorts to upper-level devils, they don't typically go after mortals with the intention of having sex (either seduced or forced). Rather, they deliver retribution and vengeance and just generally exist to beat mortals into a pulp for some transgression.
Lilitus, although they are reborn from the ashes of succubi and a profane ritual, don't really focus on sex. They concern themselves with the corruption of religion: specifically, priests and the congregations of a faith, such that those people are tricked into worshipping a demon lord. They shapechange also, but as their goals are to slowly corrupt a priest/congregation toward evil worship, they'll usually take on an innocent, sweet, trustworthy-looking and pious form (and not a sexy, come-hither type of form).
Lamias, they're just magical creatures that use their abilities to draw you in close enough to attack. They don't want to have sex, nor do they care about seduction. If their charms last long enough for someone to remove their armor, great, but their only intent is to feast on flesh and blood.
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 15 Jul 2011 16:13:32 |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 16:59:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
Funny. I thought Incubi were taken out in 3.x edition and there were only succubi and erinyes left on demon and devil sides.
In 4e, IIRC, they combined them all into succubi.
Well, the incubus shows up as its own monster in either the Demonomicon or Monster Manual 3 (away from my books at the moment).
quote:
Originally posted by MisterX
You don't need to be gay to appreciate goodlooking guys in artwork…
Agreed. Also, if you *do* appreciate good-looking guys in artwork, that does not somehow "make you gay." (Just in case anyone was worried about that.)
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Well, as far as D&D mythology goes, you may not quite like the answer.
Succubi are the sexual seducers-corrupters ...
Incubi are the rapists/sex-murderer demons ...
Female = sexual object, male = violent aggressor.
Yep, there's that intrinsic sexism I was mentioning. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 17:18:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Well, as far as D&D mythology goes, you may not quite like the answer.
Succubi are the sexual seducers-corrupters ...
Incubi are the rapists/sex-murderer demons ...
Female = sexual object, male = violent aggressor.
Yep, there's that intrinsic sexism I was mentioning.
Definitely, although I'd say it's not so much specific to D&D as it is to prevailing cultural norms in Western/European society.
That said, having "boobs out" on various attractive monsters in the earliest Monster Manual was likely an intentional selling point. Boobs make everything better. 
I can only imagine Gary Gygax saying something defensive like, "but, Mrs. Gamer's mother... that's how they're depicted in mythology! We'd never be intentionally salacious!" Heh! 
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 15 Jul 2011 17:21:16 |
|
|
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 17:28:41
|
I did look up on the Erinyes on wikipedia before I posted this, but I don't quite understand (in D&D lore) why there are only females if that one definition holds true. If they are fallen angels, then there has to be males, and how else would they procreat if there weren't?
I am really disgusted by that always lusty female, always violent male image that seems to be attached to the incubi/succubi. Now, thnough, in the Demonomicon, incubi are their own race, are attractive (dare I say sexy?) male (though it wasn't stated conclusively, it never said that they were only male) demons who serve Graz'zt. But apparently they were derived from the succubi (who, in one of the monster manuals, could change into either gender). So what are we supposed to do now? I am a firm believer in the succubi and incubi being the seperate genders of each demon. I think WotC really needs to clean this up.
I'm going to start my own D&D setting and put all of this to right, at least in my vision. I want to see the incubi as the seducers as well, because, well, that's how they *are*. They are just the opposite gender of the succubus. |
|
|
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 17:34:18
|
| There have been tales, though I can't recall any at the moment, of incubi seducing or trying to seduce monks and women. Mostly, those go back to the medieval era, I believe. |
|
|
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 17:35:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Well, as far as D&D mythology goes, you may not quite like the answer.
Succubi are the sexual seducers-corrupters ...
Incubi are the rapists/sex-murderer demons ...
Female = sexual object, male = violent aggressor.
Yep, there's that intrinsic sexism I was mentioning.
Definitely, although I'd say it's not so much specific to D&D as it is to prevailing cultural norms in Western/European society.
That said, having "boobs out" on various attractive monsters in the earliest Monster Manual was likely an intentional selling point. Boobs make everything better.
I can only imagine Gary Gygax saying something defensive like, "but, Mrs. Gamer's mother... that's how they're depicted in mythology! We'd never be intentionally salacious!" Heh!
I beg to differ |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 19:33:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil
I'm going to start my own D&D setting and put all of this to right, at least in my vision. I want to see the incubi as the seducers as well, because, well, that's how they *are*. They are just the opposite gender of the succubus.
There's really no use getting worked up about it, E.D.--you need to do whatever's right for your game.
I suggest you take both the MM succubus and the Demonomicon incubus and say they're varieties of the same demon (call them all "succubi" if you like, and have them be male and/or female). Alternatively, say the succubus is a male/female seducer demon, while the incubus is a derivation of the succubus (either bred or just differently empowered).
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 20:42:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil
I'm going to start my own D&D setting and put all of this to right, at least in my vision. I want to see the incubi as the seducers as well, because, well, that's how they *are*. They are just the opposite gender of the succubus.
There's really no use getting worked up about it, E.D.--you need to do whatever's right for your game.
I suggest you take both the MM succubus and the Demonomicon incubus and say they're varieties of the same demon (call them all "succubi" if you like, and have them be male and/or female). Alternatively, say the succubus is a male/female seducer demon, while the incubus is a derivation of the succubus (either bred or just differently empowered).
Cheers
I do tend to get worked up about things that I love  But I view the succubi as only female and the incubi as only male. I want to keep the succubi as demons as well.  4e tends to be confusing at times. |
|
|
|
Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 00:59:57
|
I've generally just had the incubi and succubi be the same creature, just taking the gender specific name if they adopt one or the other gender.
The erinyes was only similar to the succubi in any way, shape, or form in that they were often superficially attractive females in basic form. Heavens, that must mean that elves, dwarves, humans, and utahraptors are the same exact creature because they're generally bipedal in basic form. Bah. The behavior, goals, and focus of the erinyes was radically different from the succubus. The succubus generally pushed genitalia in your face while an erinyes tempted with promises of power, sculpting the mindset of every would-be tyrant, petty crime lord, and obsessive ruler they could influence. They generally weren't sleeping with their targets of corruption.
Of course then 4e inexplicably made succubi devils. I utterly fail to see the rationale still after three years. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
|
|
|
|
bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 05:06:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil
I know that Incubi and Succubi are the "official" sex demons in the D&D world, but here we also have these Erinyes' and even the Lilitus, and to a lesser extent, Lamias. Where confusion and frustration come in: Succubi have been appearing as only females throughout the history of D&D and they've had their incubus counterparts, who have generally gotten the short end of the stick (either never being mentioned or being described as hideous while succubi are beautiful). Now succubi have a male form (or they are either both genders), but are still a succubus as a devil, yet now we have the incubus who has appeared as all male and is a demon. What sense does this make? Succubi and incubi are two different genders of the same demon. They MAY(?) be able to take form of the other for awhile, but are not the same. So why does this all happen. For another matter, why haven't male seductive demons ever been portrayed in the sourcebooks in pictures? We have seen millions upon millions of pictures of scantily clad women, yet men cannot be erotic/seductive/sensual? You've got me...
Now to the Erinyes. I love their concept as fallen angels in a way, but why are they seductive like incubi and succubi? I can see them being extremely attractive to be seductive, by why in the way that succubi and icubi are? Here's another thing that confuses (and angers me if the former is true):
Erinyes look like extremely beautiful women with large feathered wings, usually in red hues, and glowing red eyes. They are typically armed with a longsword and a shining red longbow. An erinyes stands about 6 feet tall and weighs about 150 pounds. Erinyes also speak Infernal, Celestial, and Draconic.
Rumor in the underworld tells that the first erinyes were angels who fell from their lofty heights because of some temptation or misdeed. Now, the skies of the Nine Hells are litterered with their descendants. Erinyes serve as scouts, servants, and even concubines for powerful devils. Unlike other devils, erinyes appear attractive to humans, resembling very comely women or men. They’re not above taking advantage of being mistaken for the celestials that legend says they once were.
Now, if the former is true, then why did they even bother making Erinyes? This is basically the same argument as the succubi incubi, where men should be able to be sexy, and appear that way. I love the Erinyes and all, but why must they all possibly be female?
Next argument: Why are all of the liltus' female? If Malcanthet wants to have so many people seduced, then why doesn't she have male ones? You can't seduce a male with a lilitus if he likes men, and it would be the same way around if the lilitus were all male. I can understand that Malcanthet would have a group of them being the Radiant Sisters, but again, they don't all have to be female.
I believe the only ones that make sense to me are the lamias. Even though they hardly factor into this. I do believe that there are too many "Lolths" in FR, or people are just afraid of a gender being something that they aren't used to seeing.
*releases steam*
A clearer picture of the (2e) Planescape multiverse could clear up a few of your sources of confusion - though it's worthy to note that most primes (citizens of Toril, other AD&D worlds, and Earth! :OD) are unaware of the greater depths of the multiverse, and thus only see things darkly through a glass, as they say. Except for the primes who are planewalkers (usually very high-level spellcasters), of course! Suffice to say, from a RP standpoint, most folk on Toril would be asking the same questions you pose, provided they've the curiosity.
Devils are native to Baator aka the Nine Hells, and demons are native to the Abyss of Infinite Layers. It should be of note that while Baator has '9' hells & the Abyss has 'infinite' layers, its simply a point of semantics as according to my maps; they're both about the same gargantuan size, each a gargantuan galaxy, very easy to get lost in the shuffle in both. The 9 Hells represent the order of Lawful Evil, and the Infinite Layers represent the disorder of Chaotic Evil. Now, the erinyes are devils native to Baator, and the succubus are demoness' native to the Abyss.
The succubus is a female that can 'polymorph' as per the spell, into a prime material dweller. B/c polymorph is such a powerful & diverse spell, it's therein they can also 'morph' into a male. Now if they have genitalia of both sexes by default, they didn't mention it in any 2e source that I'm aware of, but I wouldn't rule it out, as it's a real thing for many mortals on Earth and thus the Realms (I juss discovered something in BG1 that alludes to it); and I reckon there may be former primes like such who die & pass on to the multiverse & choose to remain such as well, dedicating service to a god/goddess in Arborea or Ysgard. I should add that in 2e, sages believe the reason why succubus outnumber incubus is b/c sexual temptation for (most) women is different than it is for men.
Hopefully that clears up most of your confusion, which to me appears due to mixing up devils & demons, and thus their different alignments. Happens to the best of us. Took me years after playing BG2:ToB, which has many references to the Blood War, Baator and the Abyss, to fully understand what all is going on!
LOL!
Spoiler!
If you want an additional treat for more insight regarding your questions, do some research on 'Fall-From-Grace,' the succubus from Chris Avellone's PC game Planescape: Torment (he also did the storylines of other great games like the Fallout series, Star Wars: KOTOR-II, & the Realms based games Neverwinter Nights II & the Icewind Dale series). There's information of her on the internet, but if you've time to spare, you can safely & legally buy Planescape: Torment from gog.com for juss $9.99! It's not like a traditional AD&D game, much more story based, like you're reading a novel while playing the game. There's a number of Forgotten Realms influences in the game as well, as it's the afterlife for Torilians; and even Earthlings once you think about it, given all the stuff they've taken from the bible and other religious texts! LOL!
End Spoiler
|
|
|
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 14:51:40
|
The new monster manual said that succubi can change into males (so I'm assuming they're born females or they have seperate genders, though I doubt it). It really irks me that in the Demonomicon, it said that when Graz'zt invaded the abyss, he and his succubi were transformed into demons. The succubi became the incubi. Where's the sense in this? So far, succubi and incubi have appeared as only female and only male, though it says nothing about the incubus being able to change into a woman.
I have been reading Dragon #360, and I must say: I'm thoroughly p*ssed. Why do they treat Graz'zt (and for this manner, nearly all of Malcanthet's) cult as female? This sexism is really turning me off from such epic possibilities. And not only is the cult treated as entirely female, but the Thralls of Graz'zt are treated as female as well. Again, as Erik said, it is the intrinsic sexism he was talking about. I would gladly have a male Thrall of Graz'zt, but this whole female thing just bothers me for some reason. |
|
|
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 02:36:40
|
| I just found in the source book called Savage Species under the entry of the Incubus and Succubus demons. Apparently, in that book, the are the opposite genders (seperate) and they make them a Pc race. |
|
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 03:17:30
|
Why is it so important to you that they are seen as separate genders? They're demons, with at-will polymorph abilities.
As seen in all the other sourcebooks, even in Savage Species, there's no real gender to the succubus/incubus when it comes to mating with humans. It's just a demon. Only a couple sources attempt to distinguish the Incubus, and even then it's not clear that it's an entirely separate "gender" in the way we think of gender for mortals.
So, given that the basic succubus can:
- appear in any mortal form, male or female
- have sex while in that form
- and they're evil demons who don't actually care about people, they just go for corruption
- and mortals would not want to mate with them in their natural form (unless the mortal is evil and twisted)
So what's the real problem?
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 17 Jul 2011 04:05:01 |
|
|
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 05:15:29
|
I believe that they are seperate genders (in real life too), so that tends to bother me. A lot of lore states that they are as well (not so much as FR). And to me, it just seems that they don't really want males to be sexual at all.
I also (in my version of FR and other settings, plus my created one) don't have the "sex demons" being really "evil". They can steal life escence for sustenance or retrieve it from sex. They were created from desire and lust, so how is that truly evil? |
|
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 05:36:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil
I believe that they are seperate genders (in real life too), so that tends to bother me. A lot of lore states that they are as well (not so much as FR). And to me, it just seems that they don't really want males to be sexual at all.
I also (in my version of FR and other settings, plus my created one) don't have the "sex demons" being really "evil". They can steal life escence for sustenance or retrieve it from sex. They were created from desire and lust, so how is that truly evil?
Okay, well... a couple points:
1. In your own version of the Realms, you can remake anything the way you want it to be. That's the power of D&D. You, as DM, are the world-builder, and the "canon world" is like a potluck where you can take, modify, do whatever you want.
2. In the cultures that first dreamed up these myths, blatant sexism and suppression of sexuality (both male and female sexuality) was part and parcel of everyday life. That's why these myths are such powerful images, and make for good stories.
3. D&D imports things from many cultures / myths. In doing so, they're often changed, and sometimes quite a lot, from the original myths. The reasons for the changes vary, but most often it's to make things simplified for use with the RPG rules. But that doesn't mean you personally have to import anything exactly the way it's written (see point #1). You can do what you want, it's a game, none of the myths are real anyway.
4. Asking for things here, you'll get canon answers, speculation, or a mix of the two. Canon is the thing to start from, not end with. Don't ever let canon rile you up, because at the end of the day no one uses canon in a 100% infallible manner.
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 06:06:48
|
Actually, if I remember my medieval lore correctly, an incubus was much more violent then the succubus. They are basically one and the same- they simply take the FORM of that particular gender, thus the distinction of names. (Because we as humans LOVE to have names for everything!) While their basic demon-form may be either/or/both(?), when taking a mortal form to seduce or corrupt a mortal, they will naturally take the form that is more likely to succeed in their goal. Thus, a succ(inc)ubus would take a female form to corrupt a man, or a male form to corrupt a woman. Simple. Night terrors from medieval times to the present have been called both succubi and incubi, depending on whether the victim was a man or woman- and the distinction simply ran over into D&D. If you wish them to have separate genders, that is fine, but in practical terms, demons (and devils for that matter) do not have a gender "per se". They are essentially sexless in their native planes.
Regarding erinyes- they were, in Greek myths, the tormentors of the wicked, the scourges of evil-doers, particularly those who had betrayed their family or friends, or who had committed acts of atrocity like fratricide, matricide, etc. They were NOT Beautiful in myth, nor seductive. They were more like harpies than fallen angels. In the 2nd ed sources, they were devils, and only appeared as attractive females with feathered wings as an allusion to the biblical sources for fallen angels. They were not such in the older books. Later books had them as fallen celestials to account for the feathery wings and the attractive appearance. (Because of course everyone believes that angels are supposed to be beautiful.) But they have never been about seduction- just vengeance, retribution, and power. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 06:16:04
|
I've looked at both in history and they seem to have the same approach to their "victims". They both seduce them. I can believe that they are able to possibly take the form of either gender temporarily, just in case the victim is either a woman lover or man lover. I do believe demons and devils (real world and fantasy) have seperate genders because I have read to much that suggest otherwise (and I respect your claim Alystra. I'm sure you're just as well read as I am in all things occult. We pagans enjoy it quite a bit :D).
So, now in the later sources, the Erinyes are both genders? What would happen to male fallen angels, if not?
|
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 06:45:30
|
I'm not sure what your definition of seduce is, but most of the accounts I've read/heard of seem much more like rape- men who are "attacked" in their sleep, with something appearing to "ride" them without their knowledge or permission at night. Women often experience the same thing- and for some reason it is often while in the shower or bath. That does not seem much like seduction to me. Although it may be a sexual encounter, it is usually NOT pleasant!
The erinyes were not originally fallen angels, is the point being made here. They are from Greek roots, and were punishers from the Greek Underworld of Hades, sent to torment mortals at his order. The later addition of angelic lore alludes mostly to some early hints that some of the celestials had fallen to become the original devils. The book Feindish Codex: Tyrants of the Nine Hells and some other 3.5 sources first introduced that concept to the devil-lore of the game. Prior to that, they were simply denizens of Baator. I would imagine that "male" fallen angels have their own devil-type, just as the succubi/incubi do. But AFAIK, there's no lore that specifically refers to demons (in RW, at least) as having any sort of gender. Angels were supposed to be androgenous beings of radiant beauty, as opposed to specifically male or female beings. There are some instances in biblical lore where they appear as men, but only to appear in disguise. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 13:33:03
|
Some (albeit a somewhat few) stories that I've read have had the cubbutic demons just seducing mortals. In fact, on some of those paranormal T.V. shows (I can give an episode of The Haunted from Animal Planet) with the demons seducing people, but if they're advances are spurned, or the person wants to be rid of the demon, then they start to get violent.
WHen I was talking about the demons with genders, I was mostly talking about the cubbatic demons and demons with a similar purpose or in what they do.
I know of the furies from Greek mythology, but haven't really gotten into them. I don't really like Greek lore. |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 01:46:26
|
| You should look into it, ED, it is a treasure trove of ideas- and is one of the main sources for man of the "iconic" D&D monsters- including lamias, lycanthropes and many fey. (satyrs, centaurs, dryads, neriads, and so on.) I'm not familiar with tales of succubi seducing anyone as such- mostly they appear to touch, fondle, or otherwise attempt to produce some sort of sexual stimulus to their victim, usually unwanted. And since they are usually invisible or insubstantial, it hardly qualifies as a seduction. Erotic experiences with otherworldly beings are not necessarily pleasant to those who have them. Usually, such experiences just tend to creep the person out and make them want to get away from whatever is causing it. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 06:07:06
|
Most of the fey that I'm aware of comes from Celtic and Norse lore as well. I just don't find Greek, or anything Medditerranian interesting at all.
For the demons, there have been quite a few reports of them being substantial. Most people report them as being extremely attractive and seductive. And sometimes, they appear to be shadows, probably because the person couldn't see them well enough. I have heard a bunch of stories of people who have had erotic expiriences with otherworldly creatures and beings (mostly "spirit sex"), and they have enjoyed it, as they said. I read once from a guy, that he had had an expirience with an incubus before, and was quite satisfied afterwords, I don't remember if he was visited any other times than that. A woman had another expirience with an incubus as well. She said he started out very, persistent, but she gradually opened up. She even said that he became a welcome force in her household. |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 07:12:39
|
I've never heard of them being described that way. The few reports I've heard of that were visible were always of the "hag" variety. And none of them were welcome or pleasant. The folks who investigated the Amityville house (the one the movie was actually based on) did several investigations of other hauntings or demonic infestations, where the people involved has experiences of the succubus/incubus getting violent during the encounter, even scratching, slapping, or attempting to strangle the person during the incident. A woman was attacked by one while in the shower, and was almost killed by it when she slipped and hit her head, and her husband was ridden while sleeping alone one night, and had scratches and bruises afterward. There have been many other accounts similar to that, and all of them said they were terrified by the occurrences.
Greek myths are actually very interesting, especially some of the lesser-known tales and the minor gods ad creation stories. One of my favorites is the tale of Eros(Cupid) and Phyche, which I've even started writing a modern-day mythic romance story about. I've always loved Zeus and his many paramours, and the many creatures in the stories of Heracles, Perseus, and Jason. To me the mortals were more fascinating than most of the gods themselves. And there are so many great monsters that we now take for granted in fantasy, like Medusa, (there was originally only one, and she had two sisters- they were the gorgons) the chimaera, Pegasus, the Nemian Lion, the Stygian witches, Cerebus, the Pythoness, the Oracle of Delphi, and so many more. The Hseperides, Pliaedes, and the Amazons all originated in Greek myth. The Roman versions were not as interesting, since many were simply re-named, but the story of Romulus and Remus is one that has some echoes in D&D pantheons. And who could forget the Trojans and the Spartans? The epics of Homer about the Trojan War are still some of the best literature ever written. Virgil's Aeneid and other writings are wonderful, too- especially when read in the original Latin. (Three years in that class HAD to be good for SOMETHING, LOL!!) Likewise, some of the oldest werewolf and witch stories we have come from Greek and Roman folktales.
There's a bit of overlap between Greek and Celtic mythology, and for a good reason- the mainland Gaelic tribes had a good deal of contact with the ancient Greeks, and some of their stories bled over on both sides. Even a few of their gods were similar, with the Celts having a version of Zeus (Tyrranis, I believe the Romans called him in Julius Caesar's book on the Gaelic War) and a few others. Start with a really good Greek myth dictionary or something like that if you're interested, to get familiar with some of the main stories and deities/heroes. My personal favorite tome is "Deities, Demigods, and Demons" which is one of the best I've ever found. Some of the so-called demons we associate with Christian myth actually have roots in Greek times. And the Aeneid has one of the best ghost encounters anywhere in folklore or legend. Of course, one of my own patrons happens to be Zeus/Jupiter, so I might be a little biased towards the Greek tales.... (ED, Brigid is my other one, so I'm pretty balanced and love the Celtic myths, too...) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 07:42:40
|
Just a friendly Moderator warning...
I appreciate that certain mythological sexual aspects will undoubtedly become part of this discussion. However, I think we really need to tone down some of the real-world sexual content and other associated imagery.
Do remember that we are a family-friendly forum, so it's worthwhile keeping in mind that some practices, would be better served being left to the imagination.
Thank you. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 18:12:50
|
| @Sage-I'll respect your wishes, and keep it toned down @Allystra-Let's continue this in a PM, we seem to have differing viewpoints and some valuable information we could share. |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Incubi, Succubi, and Erinyes', confusion at last..
