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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jul 2013 : 09:20:26
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Sorry for raising this thread, but how come no one has said anything about the succubus/incubus "default form". I have always found it odd, that in their natural form, they resemble humans with the classic wings etc albeit with a demonic look, despite arising from the mortal sin of lust.
That means in their natural form, some succubus/incubus should look like orcs,trolls,halfling,elves etc as these races are "mortal" as well. Has any artist sought to render them as such? or is it because we just like to "humanize" their look for our own benefit? or is it because humans are the most prolific race on the many Primes? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2013 : 14:38:48
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For me, its all a matter of perception. You see a humanesque fiend-thingy... we all do. Thats because we are all human.
IF a halfling were to look upon one, they would see a beautiful Hin, a dwarf would see an amazing looking dwarf, and an an Elf would probably see some sort of androgynous symbol of perfection. This would be the case in the planes, where everything is made of 'spirit'.
When they manifest on the Prime Material Plane, they draw substance from that plane and do take a static, physical form - a form that would be pleasing to their intended target.
I don't believe in Incubus as such - I think there is one type of 'seduction fiend', and all of those terms are just mortal ways of defining things. Why would a creature that can change its appearance need to be either one sex or another? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jul 2013 14:39:15 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2013 : 18:28:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
E.D., you seem to be hitting on a significant issue in the industry, which is "where are all the sexy guys?"
This came up when one of my very male, very gay players wanted to find a "sexy half-elf rogue" miniature
Where are the non-sexy guys in artwork (except as bad guys)?
Sure, there are less sexy-clad guys than sexy-glad females, but I don't recal many pictures of herotypes with beerbellies.
Same for miniatures. While I can easily believe that it's harder to find a male mini showing as much skin as a female mini, but I would say that 95% of male half-elf-rogue minis have a pretty good BMI under their clothes, there certainly aren't many that would be ugly. The just don't show their sexiness as much as the female minis
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2013 : 19:44:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
I believe that they are seperate genders (in real life too), so that tends to bother me. A lot of lore states that they are as well (not so much as FR). And to me, it just seems that they don't really want males to be sexual at all.
I disagree about these demons being separate genders. Demons are the essence of chaos, evil, and corrupted souls. They may take on a form, but it is not what they are, only a shell to execute their purpose.
At their base, demons percolate into being through the corruption of souls mixed with the essence of the abyss. Some are created by demons mating, but far more are created through this method. Succubi derive from souls corrupted via lust.
In human mythology and history, women are often cast as seductresses. Eve, Lilith, Cleopatra, Delilah, etc. This is both because of the "Madonna/whore" characterization and because women, as frequently more physically weak, must resort to methods beyond physical might to get things done (this sometimes IS seduction). So it's not surprising that in the D&D universe succubi (seductresses) would appear primarily as women. I think there is a connection to women as fertile vessels as well. Succubi can birth demons, something not all demons are capable of. Women are child-bearers. But because of their ability to change their form at will, this doesn't mean that they are always women. The Dragon #353 article refers to an enemy of Malcanthet who specializes in the seduction of women and doesn't describe a gender for the succubus. While it could be a succubus in female form that corrupts women, it could also be a succubus who uses male form to do so (or one that uses both).
The other, darker side of sex is sexual violence and rape, which is embodied in the idea of the incubus that you discuss. The Dragon article describes incubi as the less numerous, more violent, male counterpart of the succubi. A creature that relishes sexual violence. I understand that you don't like the stereotype of male violence, but if you are looking to envision a creature that came to life and gains power from sexual violence, it's makes sense that it would take the shape of a man. The statistics for perpetrators of sexual violence are heavily weighted towards men. So again, not surprising that this would be the way it is envisioned in the D&D universe.
These two historical or mythological tropes don't mean that all seductresses must be women or that all men are sexual predators (or that women cannot also be sexual predators). Thus it doesn't seem to me like a huge disservice on the part of the designers to craft creatures that trend towards those deep-seated cultural ideas/realities. The trick in creating a model or an "average" is the acknowledgement that there are exceptions (even exceptions that happen frequently). As far as I understand, succubi are explicitly stated as being able to and sometimes taking male form. Incubi less so, and I think this could be rectified by giving them the same change shape ability that succubi enjoy, as there are certainly females who revel in sexual violence (both historical figures and in contemporary crime statistics). Neither of them are described as only targeting one gender or the other.
In my world, succubi are demons of seduction and incubi are demons of sexual violence; two products of that deadly sin, lust. They both can (and do) take on male and female form. The goal is primary, the form is only a device to achieve the goal.
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
I also (in my version of FR and other settings, plus my created one) don't have the "sex demons" being really "evil". They can steal life escence for sustenance or retrieve it from sex. They were created from desire and lust, so how is that truly evil?
I must say that I very much disagree. Demons are evil. Period. They are crafted from the essence of chaos and evil, lack free will, and grow through the consumption and corruption of souls.
Lust isn't just about sex. Lust for power, wealth, esteem, influence, etc, etc. Spin that characterization to say, "They were created from desire and lust for money, so how is that truly evil?" and it reads very differently, does it not? Sex is great and isn't inherently corruptive, but that doesn't mean that it can't be.
If you have something you call a succubus that just consumes life energy through sex, that's different. But I'd argue that at that point it's not a demon. (Though I'm not sure it doesn't make him or her evil as well. But that takes us to a discussion about consent that is outside the scope of this scroll.) |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
Edited by - Emma Drake on 28 Jul 2013 19:48:12 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2013 : 05:37:06
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Which is why, because of my recent (a few years) exposure to Planescape, I like how fiends are portrayed. Yes the majority are evil, but coupled with their essential natures and the variety and "spice" that is the multiverse, even demons can be more than just "evil"
Look at Fall-from-Grace, she is walking contradiction...(for those of you who don't consider her canon, im out of suggestions) |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2013 : 11:56:24
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In FR succubi switch sides, betraying the demons, and becoming devils. They seemed to leave the Incubi in the Abyss so the demon prince only had rape demons left, but I figure they needed seducers i there armies so they had to figure out how to teach they're ugly army of male rapists how to be teasing seductive beautiful women. Love to read that story. I'm picturing alot of very confused Incubi at charm school for Incubi.
On a series note, for beings that can change form and genders and be fertile in each, gender likely doesn't mean what it does to humans, there relation to gender would be very different.
I actually like the Incubi as villians better then Succubi because I don't find seduction to be evil, where as rape is very evil. Plus dnd is not short of seducers as a theme, so incubi standout more as unique evil then Succubi.
I do like the Brachina, Pleasure devils, I like the look of them. Basically more powerful Eyrines that have decided to give in on the issue of sex and use it to thier advantage.
The big difference pre 4e between succubi and Brachinas is Law vs. Chaos. Brachinas manipulate the truth and rules, but they don't break promises.
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Incubi, Succubi, and Erinyes', confusion at last..
