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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 16:48:19
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Since Irae T'sarran from 'City of the Spider Queen' is not an epic level character (Cleric 17/Hierophant 3), the Great Revenance spell she is researching during the course of the adventure (and which she casts if the PCs fail) can therefore only be a 9th level spell at best anyway, right?
The adventure mentions she would use the "potent negative energy" of the 'Undying Temple' "in conjunction with the new spell", so I guess it might not need to be an Epic spell?
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 17:27:28
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| It has been awhile since I last tried to run that adventure. Can you remind me what the purpose of the spell was? |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 17:36:04
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| The "potent negative energy" of the 'Undying Temple' used "in conjunction with the new spell" is supposed to animate thousands of dead humanoids in and around Maerimydra simultaneously "into a single horde" of Revenants under Irae's command, "slaved to her will". |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 18:10:08
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| -I would label that an 'Epic Spell', personally, since she is 20th Level, and it's function seems to be one beyond the general selection of 9th Level spells (with the exception of Wish). Maybe War Magic, as described in DRAGON magazine. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 18:16:12
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Thanks for your response, Lord Karsus.
Trouble is that while it indeed sounds like an Epic spell, she would need the Epic Spellcasting Feat, which she does not and cannot have, to research an Epic level spell - that's why I am puzzled. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 18:18:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Thieran
Thanks for your response, Lord Karsus.
Trouble is that while it indeed sounds like an Epic spell, she would need the Epic Spellcasting Feat, which she does not and cannot have, to research an Epic level spell - that's why I am puzzled.
-The Epic Level Handbook was published in July 2002, while City of the Spider Queen came out in September of that same year. It would not surprise me if Epic Magic, and the applicable feats, were not used because, at the time the adventure was written/designed, the designers didn't have access to the new Epic Level stuff, or weren't supposed to use it. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 18:46:08
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That certainly is a possibility, but not a particularly satisfactory one, and maybe not a probable one either - having 20 character levels, she was covered by the existing rules, and there had been simplified rules for Epic level characters since the FRCS published in June 2001. It's more plausible that they would have made her at least level 21 if they had wanted to suggest that she was able to cast a spell more powerful than 9th level, I think.
But it's the best suggestion so far which would to some extent explain the discrepancy described above - apart from Great Revenance being a 9th level spell which was "heightened to Epic proportions" by the Undying Temple perhaps? |
Edited by - Thieran on 07 Jul 2011 18:47:23 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 00:04:01
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I don't think NPCs have to follow the rules.
Boom the Simbul teleports the whole party to her palace, etc. Narrative doesn't have to follow the rules of the game or be stated out, in my opinion.
Also she has several artifacts that would be helping her. Maybe Kiaransalee allows multiple spellcasters to cast epic spells. Q'Arlynd Melarn destroyed Kiaransalee and he was not epic level, either. |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 00:18:05
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Don't misunderstand me: I am not complaining about stories not following the rules. Two things, though: 1. "City of the Spider Queen" is an adventure, not a book, and in "official" adventures, things are much more likely to follow the rules. 2. I had the impression that the designers of CotSQ attempted to follow the rules as much as possible, and I am just trying to understand whether they tried to follow the rules regarding the Great Revenance spell as well. It might well turn out that they didn't, and let the narrative deviate from the rules in that respect: but that's exactly why I posed the question here.
Thinking about your suggestions from a rules-point of view does not solve the "problem", but they could help explain things from a story-point of view. Thank you! |
Edited by - Thieran on 08 Jul 2011 00:18:58 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 01:24:44
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I don't think NPCs have to follow the rules.
Boom the Simbul teleports the whole party to her palace, etc. Narrative doesn't have to follow the rules of the game or be stated out, in my opinion.
It does when the PCs desire access to the same material the NPCs do...which is only fair, after all (for example, PC necromancer defeats her, loots her research material, develops the spell themselves). |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 03:47:33
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Why is that only fair? Plots don't have to follow the rules.
Its a spell granted by Kiaransalee, it seems unlikely one of the PCs would be a cleric of Kiaransalee. Kiaransalee probably wouldn't want one of her worshipers stopping the casting of the Great Revenance. |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 10:13:06
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| Before this turns into a discussion about "do plots have to follow the rules?", let me repeat (see my post above from 08 Jul 2011, 00:18:05) that I am aware of the possibility that the "plot does not follow the rules" in this case. I am simply interested to see whether there the rules were followed here, i.e. whether there is a way to reconcile rules and plot in this specific instance. |
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shandiris
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 17:07:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Thieran
Before this turns into a discussion about "do plots have to follow the rules?", let me repeat (see my post above from 08 Jul 2011, 00:18:05) that I am aware of the possibility that the "plot does not follow the rules" in this case. I am simply interested to see whether there the rules were followed here, i.e. whether there is a way to reconcile rules and plot in this specific instance.
I have an opinion on the "plots following rules" but for the sake of this topic I won't go into that.
To your problem, WotC has made A LOT of mistakes given rules. It sometimes seems that 0 editors worked on certain books. But some also quite simply ignore certain rules.
An example of somewhat of the same problem, is in the power of faerun. All NPC's there are treated as having the epic leadership feat, while none of them actually have it or aren't even epic level.
My personal solution to your problem would be to simply give Irae T'sarran another level. That will give her the ability to take the epic spellcasting feat, and as long as the Great Revenance is her only epic spell, her power lvl wont increase that much. |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 17:42:35
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| Thank you, shandiris - I am grateful for your observations - and for your restraint! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2011 : 18:17:18
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| -In novels, characters don't have to "follow the rules", because they're novels, and not D&D game manuals. There are no rules to follow, just generic guidelines, drawn from the D&D rules and game manuals. In actual adventures...Yeah, everything needs to follow the D&D rules. Those books are the rules. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2011 : 01:48:48
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I would suggest giving her the extra level....it won't overly disrupt the challenge of the last encounter (which should be considerable anyway). An extra level of hierophant won't increase her spellcasting power, besides caster level, and will only giver her a new special ability...which could be something as benign as Gift of the divine if you are worried about her being too powerful. This is all assuming you are still using 3.0/3.5 rules of course.
I have toyed with mocking up a Great Revenance Epic Spell but it would require a lot of ad hoc mitigating factors it seems to be within reach of her spellcraft check, which I find tricky to judge. That said with the power of the undying temple and the weave disruption at hand I think those are considerable bonuses which will probably offset the penalties.
I would love to see what you have in mind for this Epic spell, if you are planning on making it. I'm currently Dm'ing CotSQ so it would very interesting see others thoughts on it. |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 20:34:31
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Dear Eli, I am embarrassed to say that I read your reply only now - I subscribed to this thread but that sometimes does not work (at least with me), and that seems to have been the case back in late August 2011...
I agree with all you say; the context in which I asked the question in the original post was actually my intention to downscale the whole adventure a bit since I think that my group is not powerful enough, and I am running out of ways to shove additional XP on to them... And I figured that if Great Revenance were not an Epic spell of Irae's completely own doing, then I could downscale her even to level 17 (the minimum for Miracle which she used to summon the Undying Temple, if I recall correctly).
Anyway, interesting to hear that you had also been running CotSQ back then already; my campaign moves very slowly (but at least relatively steadily) because we moved it to Play-by-Post a few years ago. Incidentally, we played our first 'real' session in more than four years yesterday (and after my group's performance, I am not so worried any longer about their ability to defeat the Undying Temple and Irae...). |
Edited by - Thieran on 06 Apr 2012 20:38:20 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 23:26:39
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If you are bothered by Irae's levels or feats then just bump it up a notch or rebuild/modify her a bit to make the necessary corrections? It's not like the PCs ever would (or should) know, not unless you let them read the character sheets for your NPC villains.
You might cheat or finesse the situation any number of ways. Perhaps Irae is only finishing research started by an epic-level character? Perhaps this epic-level character was her, she might have started the research while under the effect of a potion of superheroism or spell or magical device or boon from her deity which has since expired, or she might have lost a level during her research after being exposed to necromancy or drained by undead or as punishment from her deity.
Plot and story shouldn't suffer because of minor typos and oversights, and errors will always slip through WotC's armies of editors, proofreaders, playtesters. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 23:47:39
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| I agree with you (and thanks for your suggestions)! I guess I was just looking for the most straightforward way/the way with the least number of alterations/additional assumptions. |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 02:42:37
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Hey Theiran,
It is always tricky to judge how well a group will do against future encounters and when dealing with City of the Spider Queen the threat of TPK is ever looming. The Miracle explanation is perfectly fine (both within the rules and the context of the adventure) and is most likely what the designers had in mind when crafting the adventure.
I think others like the appeal of an Epic Spell because it fits quite well with the descriptions in the adventure and would not be too much of a change in the character to acheive. However by the time your intrepid heroes have fought their way through Castle Maerimydra and the Undying Temple the current iteration of Irae should be more than enough challenge for them.
Personally I've re-tweaked her to make use of the Pathfinder rules that I'm using and other things such as the Yathrinshee prestige class from Faiths and Pantheons etc.
See how your group plays for abit longer and you'll get a better idea of whether it needs adjusting or not.
-Eli |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
Edited by - Eli the Tanner on 07 Apr 2012 02:44:00 |
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Darsson Spellmaker
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 07:54:32
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Irae T'sarran might not be an epic-level spellcaster, but Kiaransalee most certainly is.
At the moment the Great Revenance spell needs to be cast, Kiaransalee uses the Possess Mortal Salient Divine Ability to transform Irae into a temporary avatar and then casts the spell herself.
In fact, to make Irae more of a challenge, you can have her remain possessed when the heroes finally encounter her (in effect, they'll be battling a minor avatar/mortal form of the goddess). |
"Know, O mages, that there is learning, and there is wisdom, and they are very far from being the same thing."--Azuth the High One, Utterances from the Altar: Collected Verbal Manifestations of the Divine and Most Holy Lord of Spells (holy chapbook, assembled by anonymous priests of Azuth circa 1358 DR)
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 10:34:09
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| Thank you, Darsson, these are good ideas! |
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Great Revenance
