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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 02:02:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
This is incorrect. There is no 'God of Magic' in the Realms between The Year of Blue Fire and The Year of the Ageless One.
You are correct, SC. Rich Baker stated back in the primordial days of the 4e Realms that there would be no new god of magic after Mystra's death. I remember it quite well, as I was one of the more active (and vocal) protesters on the WotC boards at the time.
What a totally ridiculous situation. One of the most magical worlds out there, filled with gods for every aspect of life- but no god of magic, one of the most important aspects of the realms.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 02:11:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Then how do you use it to cast spells instead of the weave?
Specialised arcane casting techniques, that draw on raw magic, rather than the Weave.
I imagine it wouldn't be all that different from the lore/rules for casting primal sorcery-magicks during the Fifth Age in DRAGONLANCE. Essentially, these sorcerers were said to draw the energy needed for spells from the world and the very act of creation [Chaos] itself -- rather than the three deities of magic. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 02:31:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Then how do you use it to cast spells instead of the weave?
Specialised arcane casting techniques, that draw on raw magic, rather than the Weave.
I imagine it wouldn't be all that different from the lore/rules for casting primal sorcery-magicks during the Fifth Age in DRAGONLANCE. Essentially, these sorcerers were said to draw the energy needed for spells from the world and the very act of creation [Chaos] itself -- rather than the three deities of magic.
And that was as popular as a fart in an elevator. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 03:06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Then how do you use it to cast spells instead of the weave?
Specialised arcane casting techniques, that draw on raw magic, rather than the Weave.
I imagine it wouldn't be all that different from the lore/rules for casting primal sorcery-magicks during the Fifth Age in DRAGONLANCE. Essentially, these sorcerers were said to draw the energy needed for spells from the world and the very act of creation [Chaos] itself -- rather than the three deities of magic.
And that was as popular as a fart in an elevator.
Eh. I've known plenty of DL fans who, like myself, enjoyed the prospects of adventuring with primal magic across Krynn.
Besides, it promoted an entire series of adventures, novels, and a constructively fundamental shift in the way magic worked for the setting. So I'd say it succeeded to some degree. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 04:55:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Then how do you use it to cast spells instead of the weave?
-We don't know, which is what I "railed against" at the beginning of the thread, in terms of Pluma/Hishna/Table Magic (and other unnamed, unknown magical traditions), as well as magic in the post-Spellplague 4e Forgotten Realms, where there is no Weave, and yet spellcasters are casting magic.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I imagine it wouldn't be all that different from the lore/rules for casting primal sorcery-magicks during the Fifth Age in DRAGONLANCE. Essentially, these sorcerers were said to draw the energy needed for spells from the world and the very act of creation [Chaos] itself -- rather than the three deities of magic.
-The only thing I'll bring up, since it's relevant (and I don't know much about Dragon Lance), is that "raw magic" in Krynnspace might not have been as 'potent' as "raw magic" in Realmspace, thus not necessitating the need for a Weave to begin with, as opposed to Realmspace, where it's more 'potent'. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 08 Jun 2011 04:57:15 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I imagine it wouldn't be all that different from the lore/rules for casting primal sorcery-magicks during the Fifth Age in DRAGONLANCE. Essentially, these sorcerers were said to draw the energy needed for spells from the world and the very act of creation [Chaos] itself -- rather than the three deities of magic.
-The only thing I'll bring up, since it's relevant (and I don't know much about Dragon Lance), is that "raw magic" in Krynnspace might not have been as 'potent' as "raw magic" in Realmspace, thus not necessitating the need for a Weave to begin with, as opposed to Realmspace, where it's more 'potent'.
It really does depend on which system of primal sorcery in Krynn, that you might use for your games. Since it does have a history of being an inconsistent magical rules-set -- suffering from the transition of SAGA to D&D rules -- it's hard to say, with any degree of certainty, whether raw magic on Krynn would be more or less powerful. [Though, the fact that primal sorcery on Krynn comes from the raw chaos of creation itself, does suggest some very intriguing possibilities in terms of power-level.] |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:11:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I imagine it wouldn't be all that different from the lore/rules for casting primal sorcery-magicks during the Fifth Age in DRAGONLANCE. Essentially, these sorcerers were said to draw the energy needed for spells from the world and the very act of creation [Chaos] itself -- rather than the three deities of magic.
-The only thing I'll bring up, since it's relevant (and I don't know much about Dragon Lance), is that "raw magic" in Krynnspace might not have been as 'potent' as "raw magic" in Realmspace, thus not necessitating the need for a Weave to begin with, as opposed to Realmspace, where it's more 'potent'.
It really does depend on which system of primal sorcery in Krynn, that you might use for your games. Since it does have a history of being an inconsistent magical rules-set -- suffering from the transition of SAGA to D&D rules -- it's hard to say, with any degree of certainty, whether raw magic on Krynn would be more or less powerful. [Though, the fact that primal sorcery on Krynn comes from the raw chaos of creation itself, does suggest some very intriguing possibilities in terms of power-level.]
-I wasn't really speculating so much as just bringing up that it might not be apples-to-apples (not that anyone was saying that, mind you!), when saying that, in Krynnspace, they can utilize Raw Magic directly. That they can do so in Krynn doesn't necessarily say much for how things get done in Realmspace. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:14:35
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| Too bad you're Hells-bent against Epic Spellcasting. You can retro-fit that feat to generate lesser magical effects. I could build you a 1e or 2e proficiency if you want, Nicolai. |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 08:31:33
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The thing about epic spellcasting is that it, to me, does not seem to fit the setting. Neither Elven High mages or Netherese arcanist where using epic magic to beging with, but now thy have to... I know mystra put a ban on the weave, but I just feel that is not true magic, but a rule in a game.
What I want... to be strait forward is a was to bypass the weave so I essentially can cast true level 10, 11, 12... and so on spells.
This is however no way a power hunt, but just a thing that I feel would bring alot more ineresting lore to the game where I play!
Saer Cormaeril... I dont feel right about making you "work" for me, but if you would find it interesting your self I would indeed like to read what ever you can come up with. But dont do it for my sake.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 10:48:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
The thing about epic spellcasting is that it, to me, does not seem to fit the setting. Neither Elven High mages or Netherese arcanist where using epic magic to beging with, but now thy have to... I know mystra put a ban on the weave, but I just feel that is not true magic, but a rule in a game.
What I want... to be strait forward is a was to bypass the weave so I essentially can cast true level 10, 11, 12... and so on spells.
This is however no way a power hunt, but just a thing that I feel would bring alot more ineresting lore to the game where I play!
Saer Cormaeril... I dont feel right about making you "work" for me, but if you would find it interesting your self I would indeed like to read what ever you can come up with. But dont do it for my sake.
Spells greater than 9th level always bugged me. Wish is a spell that rewrites reality -- and there's something more powerful than that? Does not work for me. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 11:25:12
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True in does alter reality, but only a very personal or localized riality. If you want to alter reality on a greater scale you go boyond that. Its not so much levels boyond 9th I like or want... I just fell that the ability to use raw magic would create a sort of special feeling for a mage... just lige being a chosen, magister, spellfire wielder... and so on... And if its out there, then its possible to harness.
The question is just how.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 11:49:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
True in does alter reality, but only a very personal or localized riality. If you want to alter reality on a greater scale you go boyond that. Its not so much levels boyond 9th I like or want... I just fell that the ability to use raw magic would create a sort of special feeling for a mage... just lige being a chosen, magister, spellfire wielder... and so on... And if its out there, then its possible to harness.
The question is just how.
If I was a mage, being able to teleport or fly would be enough of a special feeling for me.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 13:29:31
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| Yeah well... even that gets old at some point! Well for most mages i would guess! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 18:02:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
The thing about epic spellcasting is that it, to me, does not seem to fit the setting. Neither Elven High mages or Netherese arcanist where using epic magic to beging with, but now thy have to... I know mystra put a ban on the weave, but I just feel that is not true magic, but a rule in a game.
-Thing is, you're right, that it is more of a rule, and not a 'true' magic system. It's, essentially, really, really, really, powerful Circle Magic. It operates on a power scale beyond how 3e describes Circle Magic, though (don't know if 4e has Circle Magic yet, or how that works).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Spells greater than 9th level always bugged me. Wish is a spell that rewrites reality -- and there's something more powerful than that? Does not work for me.
-Agreed, on the Wish part. I guess that the justification is that it's so unpredictable, and DMs are known (even suggested?) to take very literally the words that are wished for, to create unintended consequences, not all of them always beneficial? Whatever the case, I know I removed Wish (but not Miracle, since the deity has to grant that spell, and the power is coming from him/her/it, anyway) from the 9th Level spell list in my games (not that I've ever had anyone actually get that powerful, anyway), and made it an Epic Spell. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 08 Jun 2011 18:04:48 |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 02:44:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Spells greater than 9th level always bugged me. Wish is a spell that rewrites reality -- and there's something more powerful than that? Does not work for me.
I wish Mystra hadn't been killed. (?) 
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 03:07:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
[quote]Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
-Thing is, you're right, that it is more of a rule, and not a 'true' magic system. It's, essentially, really, really, really, powerful Circle Magic. It operates on a power scale beyond how 3e describes Circle Magic, though (don't know if 4e has Circle Magic yet, or how that ...
To me, epic Spellcasting, and back-fitting that system for earlier levels, seems much more organic than the traditional 1-9 system. With the Seed System, you don't have these arbitrary demarcations, but spell power runs along a continuum from 15 to infinity. |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 03:23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
True in does alter reality, but only a very personal or localized riality. If you want to alter reality on a greater scale you go boyond that. Its not so much levels boyond 9th I like or want... I just fell that the ability to use raw magic would create a sort of special feeling for a mage... just lige being a chosen, magister, spellfire wielder... and so on... And if its out there, then its possible to harness.
The question is just how.
I don't really see a great issue with using "Epic magic" (just slightly refluffed, but with the same mechanics) to justify "raw magic" spells, using the mechanism of a Spellcraft check.
See, you can't just "cast" an epic spell. You have to make a Spellcraft check, and part of the Spellcraft skill is recognising and understanding magical effects via their interaction with the world around them. From that perspective, the Spellcraft check you make when casting an epic spell is your understanding of the interactions of magic, its effect, and the world in which you are in. If you can successfully comprehend it, then you can adequately shape the necessary power to wield the spell. For normal spells, the Weave provides a filter, so you don't need that extra level of ability and understanding. The Weave is "filling in the gaps" for you.
If you fail to make the check, then your understanding of "raw magic" isn't great enough to produce the effect. This would limit raw magic to those with very high Spellcraft checks, naturally, but it's possible to get a +250 modifier or thereabouts by the time a character reaches 20th level anyway, given enough stacking.
(Also, some of the Weave-based 10th level and higher spells were kind of powerful. Wish might rewrite reality in a localised area, but one 11th level spell was powerful enough to seal off an entire crystal sphere.) |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 04:45:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
To me, epic Spellcasting, and back-fitting that system for earlier levels, seems much more organic than the traditional 1-9 system. With the Seed System, you don't have these arbitrary demarcations, but spell power runs along a continuum from 15 to infinity.
-Retrofitting Level 0-9 magic to utilize the same rule guidelines as solo Epic Magic spells sounds like an incredible headache. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 06:26:20
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| I have a lvl 25 wiz with 35 int. Im only getting +45 to my spellcraft check... how the heck do you 250 by lvl 20- ich??? |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 10:40:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I have a lvl 25 wiz with 35 int. Im only getting +45 to my spellcraft check... how the heck do you 250 by lvl 20- ich???
Well, if you must know...
23 ranks
+30 untyped (Nether Scrolls, Lost Empires of Faerun)
+37 competence (Extract Gift spell, FCI, robbing an Atropal of its knowledge)
+30 sacred (magic item)
+30 luck (magic item)
+30 morale (magic item)
+30 insight (magic item)
+3 Skill Focus (feat)
+2 synergy (5 ranks of Knowledge: Arcana)
+10 Epic Skill Focus (Codex Hammer, from Dragon #297)
+19 INT bonus (18 INT + 2 INT for a Gray Elf + 5 INT from levels + 5 INT from Tomes + 6 INT from an Headband of Intellect + 8 INT from Halruuan Great Elixirs + 1 INT from Soul Elixirs [another artifact item that gives an untyped INT bonus and stack with each other if you can find enough of them] + 3 INT from Venerable age)
+3 untyped (moth familiar from Dragon)
+2 circumstance (masterwork tool of Spellcraft)
That's a +249 modifier, and even rolling a 1 is still a horrendous +250. It requires some fairly significant resource devotion, however, along with access to a number of artifacts. For an epic-level character, though, neither of those should be too difficult.
At epic levels, the game pretty much falls apart. For example, the +249 would increase to +257 just by upgrading the Headband +6 to a +12 and maxing out your ranks to 28. You can also use the Fortify spell seed in a big ritual (chain-gate Solars to fill out your mitigation needs with their 9th level spell slots) to permanently amp your INT to 100+. Make it a Sacred bonus too, so you can still get your Headband +12 boost.
This doesn't even take into account using an Elixir of Eternity (makes you immune to death by old age, and for every hundred years past Venerable you lose an extra point of physical stats and gain one to mental... but physical can't decrease below 1, while mental can just keep climbing). Park yourself in a demiplane with the accelerated time trait (say ten thousand years inside is one day outside), and your aging bonuses will accrue to a ridiculous level. You'll also probably be insane from the loneliness, but supreme arcane power has its price.
Please note, however, that abusing aging modifiers and chain-gating Solars is frowned upon by most DMs, because of how completely it shatters the game. A huge array of custom magic items may also be over the top, depending on perspective. Epic Spellcasting as a mechanic is generally broken anyway, but drawing attention to it doesn't help matters. For a slightly less-horrific means of breaking your INT stat (and the metagame) into tiny pieces, play as a Dragonwrought Kobold with the Riddled and Spellhoarding Psychosis templates. That's an additional +10 INT (untyped bonus, so it'll stack with whatever benefits you already have) at the cost of -8 WIS and having a few odd downsides (obsession with riddles and obsession with gaining new magic both among them). |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 12:46:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
To me, epic Spellcasting, and back-fitting that system for earlier levels, seems much more organic than the traditional 1-9 system. With the Seed System, you don't have these arbitrary demarcations, but spell power runs along a continuum from 15 to infinity.
-Retrofitting Level 0-9 magic to utilize the same rule guidelines as solo Epic Magic spells sounds like an incredible headache.
Quite the opposite. Allow Epic Spellcasting as a 1st level feat. Done. |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 18:36:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Quite the opposite. Allow Epic Spellcasting as a 1st level feat. Done.
-No, no, no. I mean, reworking all of the Level 0 to Level 9 spells to use the same format as Epic Spells, with the Spellcheck rolls, and the Seeds to create and cast them, possible lash backs, and so on. That was what I though you were saying. Were you? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Magic outside the weave
