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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 20:08:57
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Ed Greenwood, via THO, has established that magic can be performed 'outside the weave'. In addition, Ed via THO verifies my assertion that the Weave *isn't* the only game in town, it just happens to be the easiest.
Strangely, Greenwood indicates that after the fall of Mystra, a new, superficially similar Weave developed between the Year of Blue Fire and the Year of the Ageless One.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Note: the Nether Scrolls are not part of the Weave or linked to it. Mystra IS the Weave, and the Weave was the most flexible and accessible to most mortals system of accessing the natural powers of the world; in other words, it was the most popular system of magic but not the only system of magic; after Mystra's fall, a new and different but superficially similar (because its developers so often desired to replicate identical or very similar magical effects) Weave developed, which is what pertains at the time of the Year of the Ageless One. However, the Nether Scrolls do store so much magical knowledge that they can be seen as a "backup" copy of the Art, in case all Art is sundered or all its practitioners eliminated. As both Azuth and Mystra "worked with" the Scrolls in private, it is highly likely that they bonded themselves to particular scrolls, and so can eventually "come back" from utter destruction (probably as past versions of themselves, just as Manshoon's awakened clones are copies of his younger selves), through some as-yet-unknown-to-mortals process.
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Brace Cormaeril |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3763 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 21:10:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Ed Greenwood, via THO, has established that magic can be performed 'outside the weave'. In addition, Ed via THO verifies my assertion that the Weave *isn't* the only game in town, it just happens to be the easiest.
Strangely, Greenwood indicates that after the fall of Mystra, a new, superficially similar Weave developed between the Year of Blue Fire and the Year of the Ageless One.
-We knew from the beginning that there existed magical traditions that fell outside the purview of Mystra's Weave (The Shadow Weave, obviously, and then the other, less known traditions we've been discussing). As mentioned, my biggest problem with those other things (with the exception of the Shadow Weave), are the logistics as to how they work- we don't know enough about them to satisfy how I think things should work, metaphysically and all that. The "new" way magicians cast magic, same thing. I have no problem with magicians being able to use magic after the demise of Mystra and the widespread disappearance of the Weave (It's D&D, after all- what kind of D&D fantasy world doesn't have magic!?), but nothing goes into detail about how they did so. The FRCG/PG says something along the lines of, 'Over the next few years, magicians re-learned how to use magic', but that's not very useful in figuring out how they did so. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 21:19:59
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Yeah, that's true, Lord Karsus.
I think this section from Ed's reply is kinda' intersting, too:
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
The Chosen, during the time of Mystra's Weave, have no real need to read the Scrolls. Unless they try to learn things magical beyond the Weave itself, or something that Mystra and Azuth forbade them to try to find out (very few topics, but among them: killing a divine being or a fellow Chosen and the implications; the essence of refining raw magical power or darkfire [[note: yes, this IS canon, thanks to Mystara and some early TSR design decisions; it fulfills the function of magically-shrouded "antimatter" in the Realms]] into silver fire
I wonder why Mystra forbade her Chosen from learning the skills required to channel raw magical power?
(Also cool that the essence of refining raw magic *is* Art that is contained with in the Nether Scrolls.)
Which was Nicolai's suggestion all along!
quote:
through intense study and discovery of some ancient magic... basically like the Nether Scrolls and or something else. That would mean that I was playing an epic or power gaming campaign ... but hey that’s what I do.
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Brace Cormaeril |
Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 04 Jun 2011 21:21:34 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3763 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 22:26:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
I wonder why Mystra forbade her Chosen from learning the skills required to channel raw magical power?
-My only guess is that, maybe, she wants/ed to avoid a Sammaster-type situation, with them becoming too powerful for their own goods, fundamentally understanding the nature of magic and it's impact and interconnection with the rest of Realmspace such to the point that, in theory, some of them could have started to have ideas and/or delusions of grandeur. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 22:55:10
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Well if the netherscrolls are a compilation of magical traditions of a pre weave fearun, then indeed they should "teach" that ability. But if indeed a weave or Mystyls weave was there all along, then they can only teach that kind of spells/knowledge.
To me it just seems that the weave is more a lid than a filter. If we indeed speak in philosophical terms.
But enough of this... more info on antimatter.... NOW  |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 23:55:38
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Well Ed's response there seems to answer the question: Certain mortals can refine raw magic, though such individuals are likely to be extremely rare (and very powerful).
If mortals can refine raw magic, does this mean they could use that magic to create a pseudo-Weave? Keep in mind that the Weave is what blocks access to 10th level spells and higher. Bypassing the Weave and tapping directly into raw magic should (theoretically) allow a wizard to access an infinite number of spell levels (not that such a thing would be easy or possible as a mortal). |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 00:39:41
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Indeed... I would say that would indeed be possible to create an infinite number of spell levels, and essentially becoming near god like.
I see it like this: a level 1 weave spell like Magic Missile is very simple and safe, whereas a raw magic missile would possibly have some sort of Wild Magic effect to it. It might even be a lot more powerful.
Not only does raw magic cause a ingame story problem as to acquiring it, but also a game mechanic problem... How do you calculate levels for spells in a system that has no limit??? The spell Wish could just as well be a level 1 effect if cast using raw magic.
I have been looking and thinking about this quite a while now, and I think this is the biggest problem. How many spells a day can a Raw magic user cast when it can be hard to determine the level of the spells???
The easiest thing would probably be to use the system of the Netheril boxed set. And simple take a look at what level you gain the +9 level spells and simply say that all the weave spells effects has the same level in raw magic.
Any ideas?
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 01:35:36
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Well if you were going to actually incorporate it all into a game, you'd have to create rules. However, I think it's important to note that "spell levels" are a meta-game construction - wizards don't go around saying - "I can't cast fireball it's a level 3 spell!" Rather, they think of it in terms of skill, ability, and power. That's how I've always approached it and how I think it is in canon (according to Ed - I think). There are also likely hundreds of different variations of all the basic spells we see - some of them duplicating effects, others using different methods to achieve the exact same thing.
I think, if an individual were tapping into raw magic, that the first thing they must do is refine it. I'd say this requires the development of some type of supernatural ability. It's not something that automatically just happens - you don't learn how to refine raw magic and then forever after cast spells using raw magic. You're not using the Weave or Shadow Weave - the main examples we have. Using raw magic could be as different as Psionics is to Weave Magic.
You'd also be going into uncharted territory. I'd be shocked if more than five people actually possessed the ability on Toril - excluding planar beings, who may very well have some innate nature to do such on their own... though they may lack an understanding as to how it's done. (In much the same way we naturally breathe, and would continue to do so even if we couldn't explain why we needed to or how it worked.)
Since the territory is uncharted, there are no "spells" for using raw magic. This means you'd have to develop them yourself - assuming raw magic would even use spells.
I disagree with the notion that you become essentially near godlike. That would entirely depend upon skill, ability, and the power you could wield. It could very well be true that attempting to master power greater than a cantrip is beyond your natural ability, making raw magic entirely undesirable as compared to Weave-based magics.
That being said, I do agree with the notion that your power is theoretically limitless - the key word being theoretically, because there would always be innate limitations. As far as I'm aware there was nothing that prevented Karsus from casting a level 72, level 48, or level 99 spell using Weave based magic, and the reason he (and other powerful archmages) didn't or don't is because they were running up against their innate limitations. So, just because "spell levels" are theoretically limitless, doesn't mean you could suddenly begin casting Karsus' Avatar.
The differences between refining raw magic and using it could be as different as Weave-based Magic compared to Psionics, or Hishna Magic compared to Table Magic. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 05 Jun 2011 01:36:39 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 23:31:25
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Indeed it is based on your own abilities. No doubt it would be very dificult to wield and research of such would take a lot longer. a leat twise as long. It might also be so straining on the body and mind that even a simple magic missile would fatigue an arch mage... But that should be base again on his skill in the art of raw magic.
Perhaps some sort of class could be made to easyfy the transition... |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 03:24:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
<snip>
Perhaps some sort of class could be made to easyfy the transition...
Indeed: I would call it the god/goddess of Magic. I'm very surprised that another deity in the Pantheon hasn't tried to overtake the mantle. Shouldn't it have gone to Shar or Cyric as the "killing" deity? That seems to be the precedent with respect to Leira.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 04:11:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I understood that Corellon took it under his domain, since he's already the elven god of magic. I seem to remember seeing this somewhere just after 4th ed was released and all the hooplah got started over Mystra's death and the lack of a Weave.
This is incorrect. There is no 'God of Magic' in the Realms between The Year of Blue Fire and The Year of the Ageless One. |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 06:42:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
This is incorrect. There is no 'God of Magic' in the Realms between The Year of Blue Fire and The Year of the Ageless One.
You are correct, SC. Rich Baker stated back in the primordial days of the 4e Realms that there would be no new god of magic after Mystra's death. I remember it quite well, as I was one of the more active (and vocal) protesters on the WotC boards at the time. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
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My game design work:
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* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 06:57:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
This is incorrect. There is no 'God of Magic' in the Realms between The Year of Blue Fire and The Year of the Ageless One.
You are correct, SC. Rich Baker stated back in the primordial days of the 4e Realms that there would be no new god of magic after Mystra's death. I remember it quite well, as I was one of the more active (and vocal) protesters on the WotC boards at the time.
Indeed, but the tides of time move ever forward, and I for one doubt anyone could ever Bury Elminster Deep!
Praise the Greatest of All, the One True Spell, Our Lady of Mysteries!
(Pre-release chapter of BED! is off-the-chain!)
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Brace Cormaeril |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 10:15:22
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One class that comes to mind is the Wordbearer. It utilized the stuff of the Phlongiston... to create so powerful effects that it penetrates almost any defence set up by the target.
This however is not "spells" and therefor not what I was gesturing with this thread! |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 15:38:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
One class that comes to mind is the Wordbearer. It utilized the stuff of the Phlongiston... to create so powerful effects that it penetrates almost any defence set up by the target.
This however is not "spells" and therefor not what I was gesturing with this thread!
That sounds similar to the "words of power" variant spellcasting in Pathfinder RPG: Ultimate Magic. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 17:21:25
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| Well I can say this much... The abilities of the wordbearer are called words of power aswell... so im guessing that they are closely related. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3763 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 18:22:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
Indeed: I would call it the god/goddess of Magic. I'm very surprised that another deity in the Pantheon hasn't tried to overtake the mantle. Shouldn't it have gone to Shar or Cyric as the "killing" deity? That seems to be the precedent with respect to Leira.
-Realistically, that's what should have happened, as I really don't see Cyric refusing to take her portfolios into herself when they became "free". Why would he not want to boost his own power, but taking on the mantle of one of the most powerful portfolios in Realmspace? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 18:24:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
One class that comes to mind is the Wordbearer. It utilized the stuff of the Phlongiston... to create so powerful effects that it penetrates almost any defence set up by the target.
This however is not "spells" and therefor not what I was gesturing with this thread!
The phlogiston? It's an extremely flammable substance that cannot exist inside a crystal sphere... How does someone utilize its power, other than clever use of incendiaries while in the Flow? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 18:38:57
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More specificly is says.. A wordbearer used the building block of the univers... I belive I have read that AO used th Philongostin to creater the realmspace... I might be wrong.
But where does is say that this Philogiston cant excist inside a crystal sphere?
And well... I dont want to bring the philogostin inside the crystal sphere i want to convert it into raw magical energy!
Had a long talk with a friend today... and what he wass most censerned about what wether or not a diety would interviene.... Any thoughts on this? If the said action is possible! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 19:07:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
More specificly is says.. A wordbearer used the building block of the univers... I belive I have read that AO used th Philongostin to creater the realmspace... I might be wrong.
But where does is say that this Philogiston cant excist inside a crystal sphere?
And well... I dont want to bring the philogostin inside the crystal sphere i want to convert it into raw magical energy!
Had a long talk with a friend today... and what he wass most censerned about what wether or not a diety would interviene.... Any thoughts on this? If the said action is possible!
The thing about phlogiston not existing in a crystal sphere is established Spelljammer lore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 19:12:36
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Yes is says that it does not exist, but I dont recall ready that in cant if pulled into a sphere forcefully! Again I can be mistaken!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 19:35:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Yes is says that it does not exist, but I dont recall ready that in cant if pulled into a sphere forcefully! Again I can be mistaken!
It cannot be brought into a crystal sphere by any means. Even in a sealed container, it dissipates as soon as it is brought inside a crystal sphere. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 19:51:40
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| But can it then be turned into raw magic in a crystal sphere? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 20:33:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
But can it then be turned into raw magic in a crystal sphere?
No. It cannot exist inside a crystal sphere, so it doesn't turn into anything inside a crystal sphere.
And it's not remarkable stuff, anyway. It's highly flammable, and that's its only noteworthy characteristic. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 20:44:40
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OK... nice im leaning new stuff all the time. Then what or where does raw magic come from? I was sertain that it dirived from the Philongostin!
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 02:43:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
OK... nice im leaning new stuff all the time. Then what or where does raw magic come from? I was sertain that it dirived from the Philongostin!
Magic of Faerûn [and pretty much no other source] calls 'raw magic' the energies of [and underlying] the Realms' natural processes. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3763 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 17:39:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And it's not remarkable stuff, anyway. It's highly flammable, and that's its only noteworthy characteristic.
-It's also very pretty to look at.
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
OK... nice im leaning new stuff all the time. Then what or where does raw magic come from?
-Nature, if you will. Everything that exists in the cosmos. It's just there (like the Force, before the concept of medichlorians was introduced). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 07 Jun 2011 17:41:03 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 23:20:53
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| Then how do you use it to cast spells instead of the weave? |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 01:51:01
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| I can't wait for the (much hoped for) return of Mystra and a new weave. I really don't like the raw/nature magic of the 4e realms, it somehow makes the realms less 'magicy'. |
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Magic outside the weave
