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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 16:12:13
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Couple of questions. In a possible future campaign of mine I'd like to hint at an invasion from the High North threatening the people of Northern Fearun (for example Ten Towns, Luskan, Vaasa or Rasheman).
So does FR have a permanently frozen ice layer in her most northern waters? How much space do the maps of the Forgotten Realms leave out in her most northern regions? Could an intrepid culture have travelled to or from other continents over the frozen icelayers up there?
If there is any lore on these parts, where do I need to start looking? Any mention of inuit or viking like cultures braving the bitter colds? Perhaps there are legends of monster kingdoms survivng way up north. What monster or undead could make a good staple for an artic invasion swarm?
Thanks for any hints!
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 18:03:13
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-Offhand, yeah, there is a northern frozen part north of the Spine of the World. Don't recall what it's known as however, other than the frozen area north of the Spine of the World. Markus will have information for you, however.
-As for what's up there, the ruins of the aborted Elven settlement of Auseriel will be found. That's all I can think of, in terms of civilization, though. There'd be White Dragons abound (canon fact), as well as other ice creatures, I'd imagine.
-If you check out Elves of Faerūn, in the article about theoretical Snow Elves (which, not too coincidentally, perhaps, Mark wrote), he gives a depiction of the area that I like. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 07 Apr 2011 18:04:36 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 18:06:37
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| I believe the Realms version of one of the apocalyptic Elder Evils campaign, specifically Father Lymric(something like that) was rather close to this. Been a long time since I looked up that particular book and that particular elder evil was never one of my focuses of study. Could be a good thing to look into for inspiration, however. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 19:39:03
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The map done by Karen Fonstad on pg.'x' of the FRA shows the entire north polar region to be covered in an Icecap.
The FRIA shows it quit differently - the continent (including the icecap) has quite a bit of 'open water' above it.
Although the Fonstad map is actually far more realistic (she was an exceptional cartographer, after all) in terms of where ice should be, I noted many pieces of obscure lore which indicated that there was 'open water' above Faerūn (including the Twilight Giant novels and the Giantcraft source that went with those). I asked Ed in his thread awhile back, and he confirmed my suspicions (and the FRA map) - the sea of Floating ice IS connected to the Great Ice Sea (Yal Tengri).
HOWEVER, those waters are very much like the RW 'Northwest Passage', and are literally FILLED with treacherous ice-flows and icebergs, some of which are even inhabited by dangerous creatures... LARGE dangerous creatures. That means depending upon the time of year (and also what century we are discussing) that entire region can be 'impassable'. I assume the Fonstad map indicates a period of time - perhaps just prior to the last Tearfall in the far north - when that region was fairly 'solid'.
Toril has been subject to MANY 'tearfalls' over the course of it's history, and although 'the gods' have mitigated the circumstances, several have had devastating affects on the local ecology, weather patterns, flora and fauna (including sentient races), etc, and several probably caused either an axial shift or crustal shift, both of which would have changed the relative positions of the poles.
This does not mean you can't do what you want. Toril is WAY bigger then the maps suggest (I did a mock-up of it's actual size relative to it's continents some time ago - there is PLENTY of more room for 'other lands') - I forget the precise % but it was discussed and is canon. That means that there is literally MILLIONS of square miles of 'land' above the known areas of Faerūn before you ever get near the polar ocean. You can get an idea of how much is there on this unfinished mock-up of the Faezakturūn super-continent.
There is also evidence of a primordial human empire somewhere in the north (most likely the elusive human 'creator race'), which seems to have possibly even been a precursor to the giant Empire (Ostoria), which existed across northern Faerūn. My assumption is that that empire - like ALL those of the "Creator Races" - was destroyed when the world was sundered, and in that aftermath of non-civilization both the dragons and giants rose to prominence (the giants in the north, and the dragons everywhere else).
There is evidence of at least one Giant (Ostoria) 'survivor state', called Jhothūn, which is somewhat detailed in the perilous gateways: portals of the frozen wastes series. Considering the oddities with the Giantish timeline, I would also assume at least one survivor-state that used the name of the original empire (Ostoria), but was much more limited in scope, and had a different capital (because the original one lies under The Great Glacier somewhere). This is really easy to imagine, because after the withdrawal (death?) of the Titans, each giant race would have established itself as the 'true' heir to Ostoria.
So yeah, you can have some ancient civilization 'up there' somewhere... there is plenty of room and no one particular group has controlled it (much) since the original Ostoria, and even they did not encompass the entire northern glacier (although that's pure supposition, based on some map-projection work I did; see below).
Guestimated extent of Ostoria at it's height.
Although they lay-claim to the entire continent, their empire was centered around a fairly narrow band of land (relatively speaking) across the entirety of northern Faerūn. The purplish area is the region that had been covered by the the Ulutiu-generated Glacier (map is based upon the positioning of the ancient capital , along with other ares that need to be included). Until very recently (past couple of centuries), all of that had been under the ice generated (in part) by Ulutiu's fall. The Glaciers (which were all connected until recently) were of a much similar arrangement back then (during Ostoria) as they are today - they have been slowly receding back to their original (natural) positions over time (indicated by the 'appearance' of Vassa, and other bits of lore).
Hope that helps.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Apr 2011 19:41:47 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 11:33:55
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Nice! Of course this helps MT!
I wouldn't have thought there was SO MUCH LAND up there! It does make a whole lotta sense, given that the ancient northern Giant empires would need thousands and thousands of square miles to sustain themsleves.
I think I'm starting to see an awesome medium to high level campaign can form out of this. Basicly I'd need to either let the glacier recede even further, stirring the old cultures buried beneath all that ice; or let the glacier grow in a new direction displacing a currently unknown nation of (Ice) Giants. Perhaps this elder evil Chosen of Asmodeus mentioned is messing with Ulutiu, ending or inducing the current Ice Age that northern fearun obviously is in right now. Letting viking like giants invade Fearun with amphibious assault-like attacks seems like an awesome premise for a start of a campaign.
Maybe after some cataclysmic event two nations of Ice Giants and White Dragons have learned to cooperate. Perhaps it was the unrecorded rise of some magical evil out of the elf settlement of Auseriel? I'd like to have a certain location for this elven realm (I'd place it near that Bleak Palace). What sages could be aware of that lost elven realm?
I desperately need to track down a copy of Giantcraft... |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 16:15:52
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-There is no recorded, concrete location, because all it was was a vague intent in Evermeet: Island of the Elves that basically went unmentioned and unresolved for years, until, in A Grand History of the Realms, it was established as being settled and then destroyed within a few sentences of each other. I, myself, place it about three tendays worth of travel by foot (however far that'd take you, in such incident weather) northeast of Icewind Dale and the Ten-Towns- somewhere in that vicinity.
-As for the cataclysmic event you're looking for, the Shadovar and the Rage of the Dragons can be used. Personally, I like to say that the Harashnalthyn, the White Wyrm that was the primary involved with the destruction of the city, was a Dragon who normally lived in the High Ice, but the Shadovar, who were trying to melt the High Ice as per the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, caused her to be displaced, and migrate further north along with her brood, to the Reghed Glacier area, in the general vicinity of Auseriel. The Dragon knew of Auseriel, and the Elves of the fledgling settlement knew of her, but the two parties realized it'd be in everyone's best interests to ignore each other as much as possible- Harashnalthyn, while a relatively stupid White Dragon, knew enough to know that messing around with powerful magicians was not a good idea, and the Elves knew enough to know that even a relatively weak Dragon, like a White Dragon, can be a fearsome opponent. Come 1373 DR, though, and the Rage, Harashnalthyn and her brood grew more and more irritable until they succumbed to the Rage, and attacked Auseriel. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 08 Apr 2011 16:17:26 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 17:07:17
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Thanks Dag (/LK  ). Always a pleasure to rely on your indepth view of all historcal elven matters.
Frost Giants and their Qorrash servants are of interesting use allready, plus using White Dragons will complement this whole setup. Are there any other mentions of Qorrash in the Realms. I assume they are written down in a Monstrous Manual. But what edition/number?
But about using a potential new monster race... Whats the continent above Maztica called? Is that the fabled Anchorome? And what sentient species would inhabit that realm? I could us that information, 'cause this continent could possibly be linked to Fearun by means of a icebridge crossing Fearuns northpole...
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 17:26:54
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| I have an unfinished campaign there, like in Warhammer (or Golarion's Worldwound) there is planar rift from the pole to Narfell, causing the Demonlands. And Damara has a wall similar to the one in the Winterfell of Westeros. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 12:05:19
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Awesome! I'll explain that the Arora Borealis effect people see when travelling further and further north is the visible indication of a planar rift. I think that would work perfectly.
In my parents home I'll have to track down some excellent old Warhammer material (Realms of Chaos) I could blatantly steal, though that might be a tad too dark for an FR campaign. Especially the chaos mutation tables are awesome and ooze with flavor (literally when conscerning Nurgles mutations). |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 16:09:54
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| Yea, aurora is like plasma, I had it as an opposite, purging effect coming from the upper planes (mostly Lathander). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 21:07:45
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Sounds VERY His Dark Materials to me.
But I approve.
Just don't kill any children to open the rift further (and WHAT the hell is wrong with 'young adult' novels these days? Is killing kids now considered mandatory?!)
Then again, kidnapping and sacrificing the younger brother/sister of one of the PCs might be just the thing to get your players emotionally involved in the campaign. Nothing like a little personal trauma to suck folks in. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Apr 2011 17:20:19 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 10:17:39
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Half of the stuff in that novel is not ''young adult''.
Tough I usually avoid that genre. |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 03:19:49
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you don't have to "make up" a white dragon habitation up north to use, canonically there already is one ... Hoarfaern
GHotR mistakenly lists Hoarfaern as being destroyed in -318DR but a multitude of sources list it as still at war today with the Avariel race
normally you are supposed to take the latest source as canon trumping older sources but unfortunately in this case the older sources list Hoarfaern as existing present day so GHotR just screwed up in one of those unfixable errors
and the ice flows melt and freeze throughout the year, enough so that Sossal trading ships can be found in Calimshan
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Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 04:28:09
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quote:
Originally posted by coach
you don't have to "make up" a white dragon habitation up north to use, canonically there already is one ... Hoarfaern
GHotR mistakenly lists Hoarfaern as being destroyed in -318DR but a multitude of sources list it as still at war today with the Avariel race
normally you are supposed to take the latest source as canon trumping older sources but unfortunately in this case the older sources list Hoarfaern as existing present day so GHotR just screwed up in one of those unfixable errors
and the ice flows melt and freeze throughout the year, enough so that Sossal trading ships can be found in Calimshan
It's likely a second dragon, using the same name. |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2011 : 16:22:14
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hoarfaern is actually a white dragon kingdom
not an individual |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2011 : 22:03:11
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| Same principle, though. It could have been destroyed, and then another kingdom rose up using the same name. Or just one small part of it remained, but claims to be the whole -- like Shade claiming to be Netheril reborn. |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2011 : 01:51:55
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true, we can always retcon the story around the mistakes but this one they simply missed the current hoarfaern references
we can say "yeah it was historically, but inaccurately, reported that hoarfaern was destroyed when actually there was a substantial portion of the kingdom left that blah, blah, blah"
you have to be careful with using the word "destroyed". "destroyed" means "not coming back" like Raumathar and Narfell "destroyed" each other in -150
yes Narfell the country is back, but the structure of the kingdom is 180 degrees different
Hoarfaern is exactly the same, a white dragon kingdom that has banded together for strength and bullies the good-aligned kingdoms in the area
they have fought the Sossrim, the dwarves of Dareth, and the winged elves throughout the centuries
my guess is that the GHotR guys just missed the current references |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2011 : 03:03:42
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So you go with a second kingdom by the same name. It's not a retcon if you work it right.
And it's also not a retcon to pull the trick of a smaller group claiming the name of the larger. No one would argue that Netheril was destroyed. And yet in Realms canon, a surviving remnant of Netheril is now claiming the name of the long-vanished empire.
The Grand History of the Realms "guys" were originally one person, who meticulously crawled thru every bit of Realmslore and put it all in a list. The original list was nothing more than that -- while a most impressive undertaking (and certainly far beyond anything I would try), it didn't generate new lore. Recording someone else's error doesn't make it your own.
(Just to be clear, much respect to Brian James, and I wish I hadn't been busy when he asked for my help -- I would have loved to have had my name on that, even as just a special thanks. And I still maintain that I was one of, if not the first, to post links to his site on the WotC forums.) |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 Apr 2011 03:05:40 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2011 : 04:24:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
(Just to be clear, much respect to Brian James, and I wish I hadn't been busy when he asked for my help -- I would have loved to have had my name on that, even as just a special thanks. And I still maintain that I was one of, if not the first, to post links to his site on the WotC forums.)
Huh. I don't recall being asked to help out.
Now, I'm not giving myself a big head here, but I would've thought I'd be among those Brian asked for assistance.
Of course, having my name on it wouldn't have mattered to me all that much, but I would've loved the prospect of providing input on an official product.
 |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2011 : 04:53:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
(Just to be clear, much respect to Brian James, and I wish I hadn't been busy when he asked for my help -- I would have loved to have had my name on that, even as just a special thanks. And I still maintain that I was one of, if not the first, to post links to his site on the WotC forums.)
Huh. I don't recall being asked to help out.
Now, I'm not giving myself a big head here, but I would've thought I'd be among those Brian asked for assistance.
Of course, having my name on it wouldn't have mattered to me all that much, but I would've loved the prospect of providing input on an official product.
As I recall, it was mainly a "can you look over this?" request, and it was, I believe, for the last release of the pdf before WotC offered to buy it. So it was not the official WotC release -- I want to make it clear that the closest I've come to assisting on an official product was telling Steven Schend which of Osco Salibuck's eyes was covered by the eyepatch.
At the time of Brian's request, though, I was busy editing the latest volume of the Compendium, so I was a week or two away from having time to get to it... So it didn't work out. 
Even though it wasn't an official product at that time, I still would have loved to have had my name on it, somewhere -- that was a wonderful resource and shows a true love of Realmslore. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 Apr 2011 04:57:01 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2011 : 15:16:25
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What does Hoarfaern mean? My guess is that Hoar signifies the frost layer on vegetation after a misty night, but faern? Is it a draconic or northmen common name for a settlement?
Hoarfaern has a certain fey-like sound to it aswell; perhaps it denotes a certain evergreen place in arctic conditions that attracts creatures from Fearie or the Feywild. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2011 : 18:29:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
What does Hoarfaern mean? My guess is that Hoar signifies the frost layer on vegetation after a misty night, but faern? Is it a draconic or northmen common name for a settlement?
Hoarfaern has a certain fey-like sound to it aswell; perhaps it denotes a certain evergreen place in arctic conditions that attracts creatures from Fearie or the Feywild.
It's prolly Icehome, or something close to it. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2011 : 18:35:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
What does Hoarfaern mean? My guess is that Hoar signifies the frost layer on vegetation after a misty night, but faern? Is it a draconic or northmen common name for a settlement?
Hoarfaern has a certain fey-like sound to it aswell; perhaps it denotes a certain evergreen place in arctic conditions that attracts creatures from Fearie or the Feywild.
-Faern means, in Elven, 'One Who Practices Art. Not particularly related, being as that these are Dragons here (as far as I know, there's no Elven influences), but I noticed the word, so... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 01:22:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
What does Hoarfaern mean? My guess is that Hoar signifies the frost layer on vegetation after a misty night, but faern? Is it a draconic or northmen common name for a settlement?
Hoarfaern has a certain fey-like sound to it aswell; perhaps it denotes a certain evergreen place in arctic conditions that attracts creatures from Fearie or the Feywild.
Well, "faer" is magic; so I'd assume the Hoar component possibly refers to the actual locale where this magic is practised.
Interestingly, the elven-sounding nature of the name, could still be applicable, perhaps illustrating the fact that either the actual name for the region has been lost, or forgotten. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Monstrous Invasion from Fearuns Northpole
