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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4487 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 13:28:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
i mean like bareris anskuld, how many people think that he should have died in the first book from all the horrors that were thrown againts him....
I had only read the short story about that character from the Realms of War anthology but it completly changed my idea of Bards on a whole. Prior to that, my opinion of the class was rather......well it wasn't great. But since I read Bareris, I really wanted to play one (using 4E of course) being a Harper and all that Bardic-goody stuff. Just seemed like a lot of fun w/o feeling I'm supposed to be playing music all the time.
But getting back to the Topic: I think wizards get more love due to their namesake. Wizards are such an Iconic figure in D&D (and history) that it's one of the most (if not THE most) identifible class/arch-types in the Genre. All thoughout the game's life and prior Wizards have been known for their superior power in magic and it's only further boosted by novels, movies and Games (RPG/MMO/PnP).
The Bard, on the other hand, has really only come about in the Genre since 2e/AD&D. This is where Alystra comes in and bashes me over the head  because of course Bards have been known to exist historically for many many centuries and I don't deny that. I just feel that it's not as iconic to the RPG community as the wizard and that reason alone is probably more than enough to validate the excess amount of attention the wizard has obtained. I'm not saying its right or wrong, just an observation really.
Also, I think it's important to note that the Bard has more options for Paragon Paths than any other class in the entire 4E game. A half-elf bard with the Combat Virtuoso feat can use their Dilettante racial feature, Paragon path powers, or powers obtained thorough multiclassing with their Charisma for the power’s attack rolls rather than the ability score normally used to make the attack. You still determine damage normally. That means, as a Bard you can take ANY class's Paragon Path (because Bards have no multiclass restriction) and use Charisma in place of the power's ability. Normally, however, Bards will take powers that don't heavily rely on other class's features or an ability score that they have a penalty in to make the full-use of this feat.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 03:39:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Why do wizards get so much attention in 4th ed? I'd rather see a few more paragon paths for bards- that is, if I cared to play in 4th. One of the reasons I dislike it is that some classes get all the attention just because their roles are more "important". I hate showboating a class just because it's flashy.....
Because there are far more people who love wizards! In the Fantasy genre in general, how many novels are there which feature bards? Not even a quarter compared to the number of those that feature wizards.
Wizards are simply far cooler, far more interesting, and far more versatile. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 04:08:24
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| LOL! Thus speaks the voice of the wizarding world.... As for them being cooler, more interesting, or more versitile, I'd have to say that's a very subjective statement. I'd argue the versatility, as a bard could take the place of a fighter, a wizard, a cleric, or even a rogue in a pinch, and usually more than one role at a time. (Such as healing with a spell while playing to buff the group, or using some roguish tactics while fighting in the battle.) Most wizards don't have near that amount of skill diversity. Sure they have spells that can IMITATE some of those abilities- assuming the wizard in question even knows the spells for it- but they usually have a limited number available at any given time, and usually reserve their magic for straight combat-blasting or protection. A bard can (or at least could in 2nd ed) do the same thing, and still hold his own in melee, or heal his friends, and bolster them with his music! (Which can be sung, leaving his hands free to do other things, like picking a lock or fighting!) Still pretty versitile in 3.5, too, and apparently in 4th as well, though perhaps without as big of a spell selection. (Whereas previously, they could use nearly any spell of a wizard, and most healing spells of clerics, up to 6th level. Pretty darn good variety, if ya ask me!) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 05:08:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Why do wizards get so much attention in 4th ed? I'd rather see a few more paragon paths for bards- that is, if I cared to play in 4th. One of the reasons I dislike it is that some classes get all the attention just because their roles are more "important". I hate showboating a class just because it's flashy.....
Because there are far more people who love wizards! In the Fantasy genre in general, how many novels are there which feature bards? Not even a quarter compared to the number of those that feature wizards.
Wizards are simply far cooler, far more interesting, and far more versatile.
Except in a couple of Mercedes Lackey books I read. In those books, a Bard (yes, it would have to be capitalized, at least in her books) of middling ability would easily be able to best a skilled wizard. 
It's part of the reason she's one of the few authors I actively detest (her writing, at least. Don't know diddly about her as a person). |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Jun 2011 05:08:39 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 07:14:37
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I can't consider myself a real fan, but her novels, at least those I've read, are okay. If I could tolerate pesky fighters (without a mote magic with them) single-handedly besting a powerful wizard, why not a Bard? But of course, there is a limit to it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 09:11:36
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| I concur. A bard can only do so much but a single wish spell and he/she would be toast |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2011 : 05:35:39
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I've always liked force mages. I believe that 3e called them Argent Savants, which sounds like someone with a thesaurus trying too hard, but I still like the imagery, concept and special abilities.
Given that I play GURPS, not D&D, a specialist wizard doesn't have to give up access to other schools unless he wants to. It's a point buy system, so any points you spend on neat special abilities for your speciality can't be used on something else, but there's obligation to shoehorn oppositional schools in when they won't fit the concept.
Might as well simply have fewer spells than a non-specialist or, alternatively, cast all other spells than your speciality with less facility. Or any other 'weakness' compared to someone who spent his points being good with all arcane magic.
An NPC among the Northern Wizards of Messemprar in my campaign is a force mage. He has a few apprentices who collectively form perhaps the most adept battlemages of the city.
On the other hand, their experience in battle and tactical acumen might not compare to the raw magical power of a Wizard like Shurlash, who is older, more learned and more powerful than they are. Caster level 18th vs. 13th (and 9th, 7th and lower for the apprentices). But that doesn't stop their shining silver swords, thunderlances and lances of disruption from being really cool.
I've recently seen some battles where characters of comparable levels including a force mage, an evoker, an illusionist and a generalist wizard all take part. It's been pretty instructive.
The generalist wizard is probably the lowest level, being relatively young and belonging to the Enclave, which avoids being caught up in fighting most of the time, and thus not experienced in warfare. He is, however, the one who knows the most exotic and ancient spells, having access to a lot of old Imarskari lore. Not that he used any of them, making do with some fairly common spells to avoid undue attention from outsiders.
The force mage is best at melee and at targeting enemy spellcasters. Of course, the fact that he's also a fair hand at fighting (equivalent to being a Havoc Mage in D&D) has to be considered. He's got the same CL as the evoker and illusionist (slightly higher than the generalist wizard), but he's effectively a higher level character. Tougher and better in a fight.
The evoker excels at raining fire and brimstone (and ice and molten metal and other things) over his foes. He's a research wizard who went to war to test out his spells of mass destruction. Yes, in our world he'd be a weapons designer who personally tested his weapons. He has the highest kill count, hands down. Also, the PCs love him, because he has a mephit familiar and seems to derive an unholy glee from burning hundreds of humans alive.
The illusionist is generally brilliant in mass combat. Causing the soldiers and junior officers (even if the upper brass of Mulhorand have enough priests see through most illusions) to be confused about the nature of the battlefield or the location of the foe is worth a lot. He's also set a Manshoon clone on fire with a lucky fireball; so there is that. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2011 : 05:49:12
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| One of my PCs plays a dimensionalist suffering from dodecaphilia. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2011 : 09:54:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The illusionist is generally brilliant in mass combat. Causing the soldiers and junior officers (even if the upper brass of Mulhorand have enough priests see through most illusions) to be confused about the nature of the battlefield or the location of the foe is worth a lot. He's also set a Manshoon clone on fire with a lucky fireball; so there is that.
That would have been nice to see in novels. Unfortunately, illusionists are most often depicted as fodders, save perhaps in the Corymyr saga. Even the last Zulkir of Illusion would have been useless had it not been to her great skills at diplomacy and war strategies. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 00:00:47
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| Everyone sells the illusionists short, it seems. While their spells are more subtle, they are often just as powerful and dangerous as any evoker's fireball, in the right hands. I had a friend in my group who played a gnome illusionist (*sigh* I KNOW...) who basically killed the ancient red dragon I had them fighting ON HIS OWN. With phantom fighters..... He broke the gnome, obviously. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 03:25:53
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Illusionists would be perfect assassins, too. No blood. No mess. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 05:00:21
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| Sometimes cleanliness isn't desired. Assassins are often employed to deliver unambiguous messages. An invoker blasting the entire building into a pile of ashes, blood and mess and all, would be a better tool for some applications. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 05:43:54
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Fair enough. But I guess most prefer subtlety, especially if one doesn't want to attract too much attention. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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If you were a Wizard...
