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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Mar 2011 : 18:56:53
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To those who have read some of the 4E novels - are the new game mechanics explored or exposed at all in the novels?
For example, do we ever see a healing surge in a story or novel?
I am just curious how the various authors have handled this change in the game. I know each author's adherence to and interpretation of the rules varies greatly, with many focusing on the story aspect.
Just thought it would be cool to know where I could see examples in the books.
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2011 : 07:55:34
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| Small sample size alert, but none of the 4e novels have felt particularly different from older novels, except for the fact they address 15th century issues as opposed to 14th century issues. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2011 : 10:56:28
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| Nothing of the sort that I have seen. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2011 : 15:30:25
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| If anyone can figure out how to turn the concept of a 4e healing surge into something that will work in a novel, he's a better man than I am. That's why, in my stuff, clerics still channel positive energy and pour it into the bodies of the afflicted. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2011 : 16:48:11
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| It's probably not even worth figuring out a way to do so anyways. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2011 : 17:09:41
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It's interesting to hear you say that Richard. I write fan fiction here and there, and I actually decided to write about a low level character just to try to avoid as much of the new magic system as I could. Keeping the magic mysterious and off stage seemed like the only way to avoid just contradicting the game mechanics. The 4e mechanics are just so much more "gamey" than 3e.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2011 : 19:36:03
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IMO, healing surges are just a mechanical construct to limit how much punishment the body can take before it really does need to rest and recover. Some people (fighters, high-CON folks) are just naturally tougher than others (wizards, rogues, etc.), but for everyone there comes a point where no amount of healing really helps you, and you just need natural rest. If anything, that's how I see healing surges.
Similar thing with usages of magic item daily powers (a rule I freely contradict in my own games)--it's just there to keep the characters from unloading all their powers and owning your adventure one encounter at a time.
As for how magic functions--there is seriously SO MUCH room for reflavoring and retooling of powers that I have never felt constrained in any way by what sorts of spells and abilities my characters might use, what they look like, or what they do. My next novel, Shadowbane, has two avengers in it, who both have the armor of faith class feature, and yet it manifests differently for them. My wizard has the normal allotment of 4e wizard spells, but she doesn't feel limited in any way.
When you're writing a novel, it's your responsibility to be creative and tell a good, moving, descriptive story. One needs to pay homage to the mechanics in a D&D story, but one shouldn't have to feel bound or restricted in so doing.
Cheers
P.S. D&D, regardless of edition, has always had majorly gamey elements. Hit points are a prime example--what do they mean? What do they represent? How do they work? To me, it's a measure of how tough a character is and how *likely* that character is to go down after the first goblin spear pierces his/her body. I think the game provides a good amount of ambiguity here (critical hits can happen, weapons can do very swingy damage, etc.), but when a heavily armed war troll is attacking a naked human warrior who happens to have 120 hit points, well, he should still be only able to take a couple of hits. Otherwise, you're stretching the bounds of credulity here.
In a sense, I like how 4e does it. It supports my view of HP as a measure of fatigue--i.e., the fewer hit points you have, the more likely you are to suffer a devastating or fatal wound. An enemy hasn't even drawn blood until you're at half hit points (i.e. bloodied), and at that point, pain and fatigue are getting to you, meaning you're soon to go down.
Does that make sense? |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 24 Mar 2011 19:40:27 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2011 : 22:28:21
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| I think hit points are one of the most transparent of D&D mechanics: they represent everything between a character and defeat or unconsciousness in (often explicitly, always potentially) pretty much exactly the same ways it works in fiction. Perhaps the biggest difference is that the quick surprise knockout strike is reserved for the thief for purposes of stylized role protection. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2011 : 15:49:42
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This is one of those things in D&D that is so ambiguous that it means different things to different people. A friend I game with likes the Star Wars version of Wound/Vitality points because it represents everything from stamina and endurance to actually taking physical damage. I like to keep things simple, not really seeing a point for actual representation for the HP loss (a dagger only deals 1d4, but if it's your throat that cut....it's WAAY more destructive.)
If I were to write (God knows I'd like to) I wouldn't really focus on anything that might have to do with HP just because it's that hard to describe. I think it should be described like a RP session. So for example, at my table I often describe the battles as they transpire, including previous character's actions to create a vivid, continuous scene. It's not just DM: "You hit! roll for damage. Ok, you deal 23 fire damage from your Fireball. Player 2 go!" It's more like DM: "As Darvik, the warrior, sweeps the legs out from the Orc warriors before him, Maeris speaks words of arcane power and throws a ball of elmental fire at her foes. The ball ignites and the fire burns away their hair as they look on with anger and fear."
As for representing Healing surges in the narritive, I'd say that with classes that have easy access to magic, it's relatively easy. Your not supposed to know how many healing surges he has (or HP for that matter). With martial classes (I'm looking at you here Warlord), it's a bit more difficult. But with Inspiring Word, it pretty much means on the battlefield a Warlord will shout the words of encouragement, thus bolstering his friends.
To give a literature example, in the novel The Two Swords by R.A Salvatore, King Breunor Battlehammer appears on a large Rock and starts shouting out battle orders and commanding his allies from the front. This bolsters his army to make a safety retreat back into Mithral Hall. I could easly see this (in game terms) as using a mulit-healing power without no aid of magic. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2011 : 16:20:05
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| I (from what I gleaned from early 4E development articles and blogs) always saw Healing Surge as a kind of "second wind," in which the character rallies his or her resources to continue on. Also, I think it could be shown as bandaging cuts and scrapes after a battle. Though, admittedly, I have never played 4E, and only have a very basic idea how a Healing Surge works. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 25 Mar 2011 16:20:38 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2011 : 17:04:23
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
I (from what I gleaned from early 4E development articles and blogs) always saw Healing Surge as a kind of "second wind," in which the character rallies his or her resources to continue on. Also, I think it could be shown as bandaging cuts and scrapes after a battle. Though, admittedly, I have never played 4E, and only have a very basic idea how a Healing Surge works.
Pretty simple, every character has X amount of healing surges per day. You can replenish these during extended rests. Certain healing spells and effects allow you to "spend" these to re-gain HP. The resurge amount is often 1/4 your total HP value. So a Fighter who has 48 total HP would have a healing surge value of 12. So a Warlord who uses Inspiring Word would allow the fighter to spend a healing surge and gain xd6 extra amount of HP.
Every character can also spend 1 healing surge per encounter called "Second Wind". This is a standard action and with it, you receive a +2 bonus to all your Defenses to give your character a break from the beating in addition to regaining HPs. Items and such can help you regain more HP during these and Dwarves can use Second Wind as a Minor Action because their hardy.
But the balancing point is, once your out of healing surges that's it. No amount of clerical healing (or potions or rituals) is going to do anything because your body just can't take the energy or whatever. It needs that time to recouperate. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2011 : 17:42:54
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| Having played 4e, I understand the game mechanic of healing surges, and obviously, for a novelist, it's easy enough to depict a character catching his breath or simply screwing up his determination. The problem I have with it in terms of writing fiction is this: When a cleric uses his divine magic to allow another character to use a healing surge, above and beyond game mechanics, what is that supposed to represent? What's "really" happening? How am I supposed to describe it in a novel? It's not easy to figure out, and so I simply stuck with the old using-positive-energy-to-promote-vitality-and-accelerate-healing idea from previous editions. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2011 : 20:03:56
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
I (from what I gleaned from early 4E development articles and blogs) always saw Healing Surge as a kind of "second wind," in which the character rallies his or her resources to continue on. Also, I think it could be shown as bandaging cuts and scrapes after a battle. Though, admittedly, I have never played 4E, and only have a very basic idea how a Healing Surge works.
What they said above, and you've pretty much described exactly the way I see healing surges. 
There even *is* an ability called Second Wind, which all characters can do--basically, you take a moment (a standard action) to collect yourself, spend a healing surge for some healing, and get some buff to your defenses while you're catching your breath.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2011 : 23:31:34
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quote:
Richard Lee Byers
When a cleric uses his divine magic to allow another character to use a healing surge, above and beyond game mechanics, what is that supposed to represent? What's "really" happening? How am I supposed to describe it in a novel? It's not easy to figure out, and so I simply stuck with the old using-positive-energy-to-promote-vitality-and-accelerate-healing idea from previous editions.
I would say the cleric pulls the character aside and commands his attention for a moment; muttering some minor orison or a brief "prayer session" in an ad-hoc ceremony of sorts. Faith is bolstered, the name of the god is invoked, the character is reminded of his (god's) greater purpose, etc. I do this sort of thing all the time at work (though without pseudo-divine invocations) ... I hate being a leader but hey, the sad truth is that most people prefer to be followers (ie: procrastinate decisions and responsibility, show little initiative, not be self-reliant, become immersed in their own struggle and forget their team or ultimate purpose) and respond quite positively to just a few words of encouragement, recognition, and a little "mission reinforcement" ... these are surprisingly powerful psychological motivators. Being perceptive of people's "fatigued condition" and giving them a short break or friendly shot-in-the-arm pep talks (or just an unfriendly shot-in-the-arm) lets them refresh their perspective, catch their breath, refocus and continue on with determination, replenished vigour, and perhaps even a smile. In my mind this is exactly the purpose served by a D&D cleric.
Something like: "My son, let not your fortitude flag and falter, know that you are specially blessed with the eternal glow of radiant Lathander's love and may always draw strength from it. Pause for a moment and look to the sun, feel His numinous rays fall upon your face, let them warm and lighten your heart. Remember Lathander's holy teachings, be inspired by His holiest champions, let His righteousness help lift the burden of your heavy blade. Charge forth anew into battle against these minions of unholy darkness!"
Or perhaps: "Come now into the churning eye of the storm so that mighty Talos may appraise your feeble worth! The fury of His storm is relentless, spilling waves of rubble and ash and destruction, tearing blood and hatred and anguish from deep within the beating hearts of His enemies! Look ye to the walls of these desperate enemies and see their precious young sons and daughters; see their weakness, hesitation, fear, and confusion! Know that it is their pointless sacrifice which will strike the most grievous wounds and please our invincible Stormlord most greatly! Ye are charged with carrying His eternal storm to this puny wall ... focus your thunder and break all those who foolishly oppose His terrible wrath! See that ye DO NOT FAIL!"
[Edit: uh, short version is that this vital energy might largely come from within the spiritual reserves of the fatigued heroes, it only needs to be nudged, triggered, or motivated into motion with some divine inspiration. Any leader could do it, though it is a fundamental part of what a cleric does for those in his "flock" (whether they be a flock of sheep or a flock of dragons).] |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 26 Mar 2011 03:48:40 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2011 : 15:29:46
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That makes sense, Arik. But what you're describing seems like it would take a little while. Can we reconcile it with the fact that in the game, a cleric can dish out healing pretty darn quickly?
And can we reconcile it with the fact that healing can sometimes happen at range to benefit characters who are at that moment locked in mortal combat? Think about it. You're in the midst of a noisy battle with weapons smashing against shields and men and orcs bellowing battle cries and screaming when they get hurt. You're focused on the orcs you're fighting yourself, because if you weren't, they'd cut you down instantly. Yet in this situation, it's somehow still possible for you to pay attention to the cleric fifteen feet away nattering on about the gods? I don't think that's credible.
And while this admittedly has nothing to do with plausibility, I don't think the cleric dishing out inspirational words and pats on the back in the middle of a fight is as cool as him flinging himself down beside a wounded comrade, pouring divine energy into his buddy's body, and closing the wound in a moment. Call me old-fashioned, but that, to me, is what a D&D cleric is all about. So I imagine that unless an editor jumps on my case about it, I will continue to depict divine healing as I d now, and not attempt to represent actual healing surges in my stuff. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2011 : 17:49:28
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Well, I did get a little carried away with the evangelism. It could be cut down to a couple sentences for standard action brevity. Healing at range would require powerfully projected oratory, the villains/monsters would probably eventually attack the cleric just to shut him up; fallen clerics make for poor long-term party sustainability.
Your explanation seems to fit the mechanics a bit better. It also allows for a cleric to give himself a healing surge without delivering himself a fanatical strange pep talk.
I'd think their holy symbols would be involved, and they'd probably glow, smoke, hum, or show some other undeniable evidence that the deity's power is manifest. I suspect that all but the most wildly unorthodox faiths would have rigidly proscribed dogma which defines the proper/expected prayers and rituals for every conceivable situation, including a fair variety for the battlefield. The faith of Tempus in particular might have a small library of canons which explain their clerical duties on the holy battlefield.
lol, just offering my input to your query, RLB. I somehow suspect there's very little I could possibly do to improve a master's writing.  |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 16:01:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
IMO, healing surges are just a mechanical construct to limit how much punishment the body can take before it really does need to rest and recover. Some people (fighters, high-CON folks) are just naturally tougher than others (wizards, rogues, etc.), but for everyone there comes a point where no amount of healing really helps you, and you just need natural rest. If anything, that's how I see healing surges.
Similar thing with usages of magic item daily powers (a rule I freely contradict in my own games)--it's just there to keep the characters from unloading all their powers and owning your adventure one encounter at a time.
As for how magic functions--there is seriously SO MUCH room for reflavoring and retooling of powers that I have never felt constrained in any way by what sorts of spells and abilities my characters might use, what they look like, or what they do. My next novel, Shadowbane, has two avengers in it, who both have the armor of faith class feature, and yet it manifests differently for them. My wizard has the normal allotment of 4e wizard spells, but she doesn't feel limited in any way.
When you're writing a novel, it's your responsibility to be creative and tell a good, moving, descriptive story. One needs to pay homage to the mechanics in a D&D story, but one shouldn't have to feel bound or restricted in so doing.
Cheers
P.S. D&D, regardless of edition, has always had majorly gamey elements. Hit points are a prime example--what do they mean? What do they represent? How do they work? To me, it's a measure of how tough a character is and how *likely* that character is to go down after the first goblin spear pierces his/her body. I think the game provides a good amount of ambiguity here (critical hits can happen, weapons can do very swingy damage, etc.), but when a heavily armed war troll is attacking a naked human warrior who happens to have 120 hit points, well, he should still be only able to take a couple of hits. Otherwise, you're stretching the bounds of credulity here.
In a sense, I like how 4e does it. It supports my view of HP as a measure of fatigue--i.e., the fewer hit points you have, the more likely you are to suffer a devastating or fatal wound. An enemy hasn't even drawn blood until you're at half hit points (i.e. bloodied), and at that point, pain and fatigue are getting to you, meaning you're soon to go down.
Does that make sense?
Makes perfect sense and if anyone asks me, this is how I will explain it to them now.  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 16:22:24
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My problem with hit points is that they dictate the types of fights you can have. At low level, you have relatively short fights that end after one or two "hits." At high level, you have long drawn out affairs that can only be credibly explained by Erik's concept of fatigue.
But you're out of luck if you attempt to reproduce one of those Samurai fights that starts with lots of staring and ends in one swift exchange. Or a typical knife fight scene in which an opponent is stabbed or cut early and the rest of the fight is one guy waiting for his opponent to bleed out while the bleeder is desperate to end the fight while he is still able. There just isn't the flexibility in the game rules to accommodate these types of scenes, at least to my knowledge. It doesn't mean they don't happen in novels, of course. The real problem in my view is the game doesn't support the kind of drama you can get in novels.
But then I'm an engineer and a GURPS guy, so I'm more about simulation than gaming.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 19:47:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
My problem with hit points is that they dictate the types of fights you can have. At low level, you have relatively short fights that end after one or two "hits." At high level, you have long drawn out affairs that can only be credibly explained by Erik's concept of fatigue.
Good point.
Let me give a couple suggestions about how to introduce fight variables into your game, based on things I've done.
I often make duels all about skill usage, rather than plain attacks. I also sometimes have people do healing surge-worth damage with a single attack, rather than normal damage. Hence, people go down in 4 hits.
quote:
But you're out of luck if you attempt to reproduce one of those Samurai fights that starts with lots of staring and ends in one swift exchange.
Make the two samurai "fight in their minds"--i.e., roll the combat normally with all the attacks dealing psychic damage, but you just have the two samurai standing there in the physical world until the fight's over, and they have their quick exchange, the outcome of which depends on who won the "psychic" battle.
quote:
Or a typical knife fight scene in which an opponent is stabbed or cut early and the rest of the fight is one guy waiting for his opponent to bleed out while the bleeder is desperate to end the fight while he is still able.
That's ongoing damage, which is an actual 4e mechanic. If you really want to heighten the drama, you can have normal attacks inflict ongoing damage and/or make the damage harder (or even impossible) to save out of (it can only be fixed with medical attention).
And to the real point: quote:
The real problem in my view is the game doesn't support the kind of drama you can get in novels.
But then I'm an engineer and a GURPS guy, so I'm more about simulation than gaming.
I think the simulation vs. gaming opposition is an important issue to note. The game is sort of meant to simulate fights in a fantasy setting, but it isn't a strict analog. It's representational/metaphorical at best.
I should note that there have been and are lots of attempts to simulate combat with a high degree of accuracy, but there are just too many variables in an actual fight to do it with any consistency, and even if you could do that, I don't think it would make for a fun game. Really, in the gaming industry, what you have to look for is degrees of representation vs. degrees of style.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 20:55:01
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The few I've read give no indication that anything has changed, aside from passing mentions of the Spellplague.
Which is odd, I guess, but very much welcome. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 04:20:12
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| Yea, I've only read a few novels myself and the Spellplage seems very "backdrop" instead of it being very prominent in the novels. But I think that was the point of the Time-jump, so that a century has passed since it happened and thus everyone is accusomed to it. |
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Acolyte
Australia
33 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 11:36:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Having played 4e, I understand the game mechanic of healing surges, and obviously, for a novelist, it's easy enough to depict a character catching his breath or simply screwing up his determination. The problem I have with it in terms of writing fiction is this: When a cleric uses his divine magic to allow another character to use a healing surge, above and beyond game mechanics, what is that supposed to represent? What's "really" happening? How am I supposed to describe it in a novel? It's not easy to figure out, and so I simply stuck with the old using-positive-energy-to-promote-vitality-and-accelerate-healing idea from previous editions.
I realise this is very late, but maybe have it as the character hearing the priest crying out to their god for aid above the noise of battle, invigorating her and strengthening her resolve with the knowledge that Torm is aiding them. If it is for one charater, then it could be that the character feels his attention drawn to the voice of the priest as he asks the god to aid his friend. Or you could go with the character feeling the strength of the priest faith invigorating her with the knowledge that they have the aid of a god. |
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zenmichael
Seeker
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 16:28:01
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Just to add my 2 cents ....
The only post-4E novel I've tried was Richard Baker's trilogy. What's the first one, Swordmage? I think so. Anyway, I thought it felt perfectly "Realms-y" up and until the point that suddenly characters are like loosing magical shields & essentially turn into what read like, for me, some sort of crazy mecha characters here & there. Really threw me out of the mood of the piece (which is, overall, a kind of desultory noirish character piece ... but with crazy OTT magic!). No clue about the other stuff, but it REALLY threw me out of the moment when reading the mechanics in there. |
Realms Remembered: A Chronological Read-Through (DR) of Forgotten Realms Fiction
http://www.youtube.com/rolereviewsal |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 18:02:38
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| -In my experience with reading post-Spellplague 4e Forgotten Realms novels, limited to basically three books, the mechanics themselves on how spells were cast, or things like that, never struck me as particularly odd, or even different from what I was used to. More jarring and confusing was, at times, terminology. Was that 'Eladrin' from the Plane of Faerie I was reading about a 3e Eladrin (Planar Race), or a 4e Eladrin (Elf)? In an interview I did with him years ago (when 4e was first coming out), in his capacity as lead designer, Bruce Cordell reassured me that generic 4e terms wouldn't be replacing Realmslore terms; Sun/Moon/Star Elves, to use an example, wouldn't be called by the blanket 4e catch-all 'Eladrin'; They'd still be Sun/Moon/Star Elves, and not lose their 'Realmsian identity'. In the few novels I've read, this really isn't the case. This, I don't like. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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4E Realms Novels - Mechanics in Writing
