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CylverSaber
Seeker
95 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 03:13:12
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Where were the floating cities of Netheril first mentioned? And are there any published references to Netheril itself predating the 1st edition Campaign Set (eg; in Dragon articles)?
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 03:15:53
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quote:
Originally posted by CylverSaber
Where were the floating cities of Netheril first mentioned? And are there any published references to Netheril itself predating the 1st edition Campaign Set (eg; in Dragon articles)?
I would suggest that this is a good question for the "Ask Ed" thread where you might find some semi-canon lore about it from The Hooded One from either her own notes or from Ed himself.
I don't recall Netheril being mentioned at all in the Grey Box...though I'm not looking in it right now; and I don't recall any Dragon Articles. I was of the mind that it was a wholly new ret-con. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 03:31:45
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The definitive source is of course Netheril: Empire of Magic, written for 2E.
It doesn't name many floating cities (such as Sakkors and Thultanthar/Shade) which appear in later products. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 03:52:43
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This is something I've looked at in the past, and it was very briefly touched upon in the Old Grey Box, before being expanded somewhat in Waterdeep and the North, and Anauroch.
Incidentally, none of these sources mention anything about flying cities nor anything of the fall beyond the fact that everyone fled as the lands became uninhabitable due to the Phaerims's life-draining spells. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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CylverSaber
Seeker
95 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 04:34:55
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Yeah, I looked at 1991's Anauroch, which is apparently the first mention of the Phaerimm, and there's no mention of floating cities... I guess it's possible 1996's Empire of Magic was when they first came up with the idea of floating cities, but I figured I'd see if anyone knew for sure.
I assume Ed came up with the concept of Netheril as part of his home campaign long before the Realms were published, but since it is mentioned in the 1E Campaign Set, I thought it possible he'd mentioned it in one of his early Dragon articles. I probably should ask him about all this though. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 04:44:36
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| I suspect Netheril was part of Faerūn's history from the onset, but wasn't really worked in much detail (beyond being a bunch of interesting ruins stuffed full of lost magic) until published in the Arcane Ages products. Worthy of asking Ed if he'd written any lore beforehand, though it may have been asked before. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 05:39:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I suspect Netheril was part of Faerūn's history from the onset, but wasn't really worked in much detail (beyond being a bunch of interesting ruins stuffed full of lost magic) until published in the Arcane Ages products. Worthy of asking Ed if he'd written any lore beforehand, though it may have been asked before.
No need, since he's covered it before. So Saith Ed's thoughts on his version of Netheril:-
quote:
"The Netheril you saw in print differed in fine detail from my original...
[...]
Netheril certainly wasnt modeled on ancient real-world anything, and attempts to draw parallels between real-world places and Netheril are tenuous at best. In Netheril I intended to show the decadence of humans consumed by the desire to master magic, and achieve immortality or godhood (or the ability to reshape the world like gods, at a whim), and the contrast between their created worlds (not all floating cities, by the way), with altered gravity and such, and the other Netherese living like hardy hunters in the forests, ignored or considered beasts by the archwizards."
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 14:08:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
The definitive source is of course Netheril: Empire of Magic, written for 2E.
It doesn't name many floating cities (such as Sakkors and Thultanthar/Shade) which appear in later products.
Actually it names quite a few, along with many other locales... but the author used completely different names for everything (including mountain ranges, forests, etc).
The map that came in Anauroch lines-up perfectly with the one that came in the Netheril box (and there was apparently a Netherease village at or near the site of present-day Tilverton). You'll see what I mean about the names; its really weird, because the ruins of Netherease settlements have different names then the settlements themselves (which strikes me as REALLY odd).
From what I understand, the author named all his places after songs from some esoteric music group (and the names are pretty awful). My assumption is that in the Netherease product, we are given the translation of what the name means (how a Netherite would have heard it), whereas in the later time-period products we are given the actual phonetic pronunciation (and whether that's in common or English is anyone's guess). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Mar 2011 14:10:33 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 20:28:32
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The old name for Istanbul (commonly called Stanbul by the natives) is Constantinople, the ancient one is Byzantium, the legendary one is Lygos ... yet a city still stands in the same place.
If something needs to be named and no other name (or surviving record) exists then a new name will be invented. Perhaps the town square of Tilverton has a curious small piece of Netheril and a commemorative plaque which briefly describes their heritage. Perhaps they have verbal folklore and ghost stories about Netheril. I think most people don't have a clue unless they happen to be learned in ancient maps and histories. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36882 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2011 : 03:54:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
The old name for Istanbul (commonly called Stanbul by the natives) is Constantinople, the ancient one is Byzantium, the legendary one is Lygos ... yet a city still stands in the same place.
Every gal in Constantinople lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople, so if you have a date in Constantinople, she'll be waiting in Istanbul!  |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Mar 2011 03:55:26 |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2011 : 04:01:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
If something needs to be named and no other name (or surviving record) exists then a new name will be invented. Perhaps the town square of Tilverton has a curious small piece of Netheril and a commemorative plaque which briefly describes their heritage. Perhaps they have verbal folklore and ghost stories about Netheril. I think most people don't have a clue unless they happen to be learned in ancient maps and histories.
This is a very good point. It's very easy to forget that we know things about the Realms and their history that only the most learned scholars and sages could possibly know, and even things that they don't. Oral tradition is likely all that links these cities to their Netherese roots, and even the most learned members of the village would be unlikely to know much beyond the fact that the city was once Netherese, if they even know that much. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2011 : 07:35:52
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quote:
CylverSaber [Questions for Ed Greenwood (2011)]
... I noticed that in 1991's Anauroch accessory, the gradual demise of Netheril at the hands of the phaerimm's lifedrain spells is detailed, but no hint is given that Netheril was anything other than a land-based empire; was this because the story of Karsus was considered too much to get into at that point? The floating cities seems like such an essential part of Netheril's flavor that it's amazing to me they apparently don't get mentioned till 1996's Netheril: Empire of Magic, nearly 10 years after the Realms became an established campaign world.
The city of Sakkors is somewhere at the bottom of the Sea of Fallen Stars, so it seems likely to me that at least some of the cities could float across water, at least in times of emergency (Sakkors was possibly fleeing Netheril during the Fall); I'm of the opinion that all these cities could easily float over any kind of terrain (including open water) without difficulty, but that cannot really be assumed.
My guess is that arcanists could use magical means like teleport, gate, and fly to move between cities and non-arcanists didn't really matter (and relied upon quasimagic items, perhaps even flying mounts) ... but none of these magical methods is really able to transport bulk on a daily or constant basis over a long range; the cities needed to remain close to their supply of food and couldn't travel too far away from supplies of other resources, their populations were just too large and concentrated to be self-sustaining. I'm under the impression that vast populations dwelled on the ground, largely serving no other purpose than producing food, leather, lumber, metal, and trade goods for the ever-hungry and ever-consuming floating cities.
Moving a floating city too many miles off the Sword Coast might be functionally equivalent to destroying all the roads which allow a constant flow of trucks full of food and goods to reach our urban sprawls. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 21 Mar 2011 07:46:33 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2011 : 09:30:18
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I have always assumed that a fairly large fleet of flying 'merchant marine' vessels were used to supply the enclaves from the groundling settlements. Those ships would have been primarily for cargo, and NOT psuedo-magical (mythallar-powered) in nature.
Some luxurious flying 'yachts' were probably created as well, for the more flamboyant and social-minded Archmages, but for the most part, individual travel would have indeed been through the use of spells and permanent gates (I can picture a Stargate-like setup with gates attuned to various 'friendly' enclaves, and you just dial-in your destination).
It was BECAUSE the majority of flying vessels were not psuedo-magical (and reliant upon the city's dweomer-engine) that they were able to save so many, and were used by the Netherease during their diaspora. Very few would have been 'left behind' with the survivor states because the spreading Phaerimm Life-drain would have eventually crippled them all anyway (and who wants to be caught a 1000' in the air, when you suddenly find yourself within a Phaerimm-generated dead-magic zone?)
Also, some would have been fitted Soulhelms*, and been capable of travel through Arcane-space. These would have been VERY rare however, because the Netherease had already given up on space-travel by the time the empire fell.
ALL purely conjecture, of course. 
*Since we know from canon that the Netherease had both tried to stretch their influence into space (read: conquer), and also tried to develop their own helms (so they wouldn't have to rely on the Mercane for them), I have postulated a variant based-upon the Netherease mindset of 'using others': The Soulhelm. You strap an unwilling victim to an 'X' shaped apparatus, which drains their life energy for power, and eventually lives them a withered, lifeless husk. Gnomes were the most common source of 'fuel'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Mar 2011 09:35:58 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2011 : 10:15:36
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Your Soulhelms resemble the lifejammer helms already described in spelljammer (often used by races such as illithids and neogi slavers). Available through the arcane/mercane.
I hadn't considered the "fleets" of cargo vessels, though it seems like the most practical solution. I'm not so sure they'd be actual magical items since (aside from luxury yachts and couriers, etc) they'd only be required to travel between the city and the ground, easily within the effective range of the mythallar (roughly 1 mile radius; always reaches the ground, as evidenced by elves/etc having their intrinsic magics a bit scrambled while underneath a floating city). Even if the cargo vessels were magical items capable of unlimited range, a floating city drifting too far away would require an ever-increasing number of them to maintain logistic viability; there must be a threshold of dominishing returns where it's much simpler, better, and cheaper to just always float your city near a readily accessible food source ... no arcanist would ever want to be locked in with hungry/angry population (nor would any ever depend on lowly priests to provision their people), nor would they ever accept interruptions of their precious shipments of laboratory test subjects and glassware.
More pure conjecture:
Netherese arcanists did devise the 10th level spell Valdick's Spheresail which was actually superior to most helms since power was not provided by a single mage but rather by "dipping directly into the magical forces of the goddess Mystryl". The Netherese had no need for (and little interest in) other helms. They likely also had access to (or reinvented) the common create minor helm and create major helm spells, which could enable cargo transport or be used in emergencies. Of course, they could always stuff a small mythallar onto a ship (if you're going to diminish your life force casting permanency then it might as well be to create a mythallar which can power any number of quasimagical items). They might even design a floating city (or a landing gantry) which permits safe resupply or grounding, though I think this last option might be seen as too "dirty" for the lofty arcanists. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 21 Mar 2011 10:25:59 |
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Question about the floating cities of Netheril
