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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 09:38:51
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Hehe, then of course we had to grit our teeth when we did GHotR and re-date Brian's -24,000 DR date to match up with LEoF. Respect previous products and all that ...
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 17:19:46
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Proof of sabotage? 
{I love conspiracy-theories} 
Anyhow, GK, that bit helped me understand Fey magic better (at least, my interpretation of fey magic), so its all good.
Did either of you like that "taps in the Butterfly effect' explanation? I figure the Elves just aren't as good at it as their fey forebears.
It seems like every time they cast a High Magic Ritual, it is immediately followed by a, "Uh-OHHHHHH..."
To say that it almost always 'gets out of hand' is an understatement.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 19:31:33
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@ markustay:
I had this feeling for a long time as well, they do all this kind of high magic ONLY to have an excuse for lashing out heavily against everybody else, NO other reason!!!!! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 16:39:00
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Just come across this thread.
I find it strange that the first mention of hogoblins occurs in -3778 DR when hobgoblins gather around the statue of Nomog Geaya at the now Gorge of the Fallen Idol.
In fact that reference is the first i kind find about any goblin race.
Furthermore, in the days of thunder section in GHoTR, it states that none of the races - elves, dwarves, etc, or the savage races orcs, goblins, ogres etc, were present at this time.
Which suggests that either goblinoids migrated at some point, or that maybe they were created on Toril after the days of Thunder.
Now i dont know who Nomog Geaya is, he sounds suitably demonic and is undoubtedly very powerful.
Now around the time of -3778 DR we have Mir/Coramshan and Jhaamdath battle for control of what i can only assume is present day Tethyr (the central plains anyway where the humans probably live).
A truce was brokered and Mir claimed sovereignty over all lands south of the river Ith. Presumably leaving the lands north of the Ith (although they call it the Wurlur) to the barbaric tribes of Tethyr.
Just above these plains are the mountains (cant remember the name) and what is today called the Wealdath, which i would imagine has a substantial elven presence in it at the time of -3778 DR, or if the elves were killed had a substantial presence.
So what if this Nomog Geaya corrupted the elves, or the humans, probably elves since it appears that most of the evil humanoids are just corruptions of the perfection of elves in fantasy fiction (Tolkien orcs for instance) into the hobgoblins of today.
In a few thousand years these hobgoblins could have easily spread across the surface of Toril in secret (they arent that monstrous looking after all and with a thick cloak could be mistaken for humans (with leprosy maybe).
I dont know where goblins or bugbears come from, maybe these are later corruptions of the original hobgoblins. But it does seem significant that -3778 DR is the first mention of them. |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 17:05:12
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@dazz:
Nomog-Gaeya:
Nomog-Geaya is the hobgoblin deity of War and Authority. His symbol is a crossed longsword and handaxe.
Title(s) The General
Home Plane Infernal Battlefield of Acheron
Power Level Lesser
Gender Male
Class(es)
Alignment Lawful Evil
Portfolio Hobgoblins, War, Authority
Domains Courage, Evil, Law, Strength, Tyranny, War
Nomog-Geaya appears as a huge, powerful goblin with rough, ash-gray skin, cold orange eyes, and teeth like a sharks. He almost always has his broadsword in one hand, and his hand axe in the other. He is said to have no expressions other than a grim, tight-lipped look of domineering authority. He is quiet and only speaks when he must.
Relationships
Nomog-Geaya is subservient to Maglubiyet, and detests Khurgorbaeyag, the patron deity of goblins.
Realm
Maglubiyet allows Nomog-Geaya and Khurgorbaeyag to live in his realm of Clangor on the plane of Acheron, to better keep an eye on them.
Dogma
The Five Directives of the Soldiers of the Last Order are:
Arm yourself with fire and steel.
Rally all hobgoblin tribes under your banner.
Hunt elves and goblins and put them to the sword.
Burn prisoners alive in sacrifice to Nomog-Geaya. Nomog-Geaya will accept no other sacrifice.
Honor no god above Nomog-Geaya.
Worshippers
Nomog-Geaya is the patron deity of hobgoblins, second only to Maglubiyet in hobgoblin religion.
he is lawful evil. |
Edited by - Jakuta Khan on 01 Nov 2013 17:08:54 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 01:21:04
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"Powers & Pantheons" (p.2) sets out the timetable of arrivals in order but not with a chronology attached. It is of course (very wisely) pitched in terms of the "unreliable narrator", so we are free to mould it to what is needed. Extrapolating, it would appear that the goblinkin arrived sometime during the beginning of the Dawn Ages as the giants are used as a touchstone and the goblins/hobgoblins/orcs etc appeared "much later". If I had to date it I would put it at c.-26,000 DR, reasoning that Othea's dalliance with Vaprak brings Toril to the attention of the humanoid deities with a resulting influx of their children.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 12:48:48
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Rest assured, if GHotR II is ever produced, hobgoblins will feature sooner than -3778 DR. My East Timeline features them as early as c. -10,000 DR.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 12:59:27
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Not sure about Hobs, but gnolls had a mighty empire during the time of the Creator Races - Urgnarash.
I've likened that empire to the Hutaakans of Mystara (and there may have been some sort of connection). Then when the Mujhari (proto-Imaskari) settled in the then-fertile Raurin basin, they discovered the ruins of that civilization, including a strange 'temple city'. Thats how I shoe-horned in Rip Van Wormer's theories about the Imaskari and Sigil (it is forever being added to by all sorts of beings in the multiverse - the city is actually one of the universe's largest artifacts). Very much homebrew, of course.
I've place hobgoblin beginnings firmly in the east, so their first appearances should be 'over that way', IMO. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2013 15:26:22 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 16:01:19
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Well now im intrigued on two counts. First is what the hobgoblins did around -10000DR. Im guessing it involves the lands that would be impiltur and the nearby mountains.
And secondly GHoTR2.
So why do many of you think hobgoblins arrived in the east, and where did they come from. If it was the fey plane would they not arrive in the west which was more forested and has plenty of fey links (moonshaes, the high forest, the elves).
Not that im trying to argue the point but I am interested in the origin of creatures first so I csn figure out the rest like culture society motives etc.
The evil humanoid races are very scarcely detailed in FR. We have almost no information as to where they come from, how they behave, what customs they have, what drives them, even what they prefer to eat.
I would love to sit down one day (although it might take a year) and hammer out all the details for orcs, goblinkin, ogres, trolls, all the unloved and ugly races of the world that PCs are so happy to butcher without a second thought.
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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 02 Nov 2013 19:13:44 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 20:08:46
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| Lots of early pictures of Hobgoblins portrayed them as "Oriental" sorts of goblins...especially with their armor and weapons. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 06:19:46
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In my Realms, hobgoblins did originate from the lands of the East. That is the mountains around the Unapproachable East and up to the Great Glacier (then smaller). They originated as a result of a selective draconic goblin breeding program instigated by a cabal of dragons, lead by the great wyrm Dremalaugos (type unknown).They firstly bred them bigger (for food purposes) and then smarter (for military and servant purposes). In my Realms, the Morueme dragons have continued this tradition over the millennia and maintained hobgoblin servants - a now unique relationship in the Realms. The hobgoblins of the Gorge of the Fallen Idol may have also had a draconic master. YMMV.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 03 Nov 2013 06:20:24 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 13:21:47
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Feel free. Ed is the one who first pointed me in this direction after I read a throwaway line in "Elminster's Daughter" (hardcover, p.313) where he mentions a "cult" among the hobgoblins that thought eating dragonflesh would make them into a larger, stronger breed and how they used to steal dragon eggs in an attempt to do so.
That set the wheels turning a long time ago and coupled with the Morueme dragon relationship made me think that Ed's reference was to a time when the hobgoblins had thrown off the yoke of the dragons and were seeking to exact revenge on all dragonkind. That made me then think about their origins and I decided that the hobgoblins were the result of a breeding program and had an association with dragons (especially reds and blues) that stretched back over a considerable period of time.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 15:38:55
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For me, 'the east' has a much closer connection to the Fey Realms - they just call it 'the spirit world'.
Half-fey are very common over there, they call them 'spiritfolk'.
I recall one of the earliest hobgoblin kingdoms also being in the Spiderhaunt Peaks (Khopet Dag), and it was wiped-out by the Imaksari. Can't seem to find a reference to it, though.
EDIT:
Nevermind - I was remembering it wrong - it was the Kobold kingdom of Zexthandrim. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2013 15:41:54 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2013 : 17:22:07
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I have to look it up avain but ed answered to me regarding this i think last year.
He shared the creation myst of the bugbears and goblins, i have it at home. But shouldbe found on eds scroll. The only one missing is the hobgoblin one. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2013 : 12:54:33
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Ed also explained it quite well. He clearly stated, that the hobgoblin usual mindset is not like orcs or other humanoids. They are clever enough to maintain what they have got. i.e. they are satisfied with what they have, and rather use other humanoids, directly or indirectly, to get what they want.
But beware when they should decide otherwise, or move in force ( like on the sythilisian campaign ) when their gods tell them to do so.
Imagine an army of 20.000 or more hobgoblins on the campaign, supporter by tens of thousands of goblins, kobolds, gnolls, orcs, ogres etc.etc. and not stopping. THIS would mean an empire of humanoids, with structure, order and discipline..... |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Goblin Origins
