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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 18:05:47
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So this post comes out of several forum threads I've headached my way through over the years, and I'm officially done with it. Let this be my definitive word on the topic.
Recently, I've started to feel that Candlekeep has been growing increasingly lax in how courteous posters are expected to be when discussing novels and game supplements. Does anyone else feel this way?
Now note, this isn't me calling for constant positivity or praise. I'm fine with whatever reviewers say about my work, positive or negative. It's your opinion, and hey, I'm just glad you picked up my book in the first place, let alone kept reading it. Negative reviews don't bother me.
What *does* bother me is the discourtesy. For instance, people feel free to say things like (to paraphrase) "well, Realms novels are just slush entertainment--of course they don't have any depth," or "of course XXX novel sucks--what did you expect? It's just FR."
These aren't direct insults, but they're prejudicial and pejorative. That isn't saying one book sucks or even a bunch of books suck--it's saying all the books suck, by definition, and that's not fair.
This bothers me because I know *I* work really hard on my books, every FR author I know does that, and because fostering that sort of attitude makes an incredibly hostile environment for authors/editors to come here and discuss the setting we all know and love.
This is the reputation Candlekeep has been getting for years: that it's hostile to the writers/designers/editors. From early in my career, I heard the advice "don't go on the messageboards" expressed more than once to me by WotC staffers, and I've got to say, I can see where they're coming from. Nothing is more discouraging to a writer than to hear that their books can't possibly rise above "suck" because that's just the FR novel line.
Now, I am as much a supporter of free speech as the next red blooded American. Any poster here at the Keep is completely within his or her rights to post like a jerk (apropos the code of conduct), but the net result is that you're less likely to see many of us here. So before you say something, give it a thought as to whether you're going to offend someone, whether you're going to chase someone away, and what effect that will have on the keep and your fellow posters.
To get personal a moment, I really like posting here. I like all of you, author and reader and designer and everything in between. *Please* exercise a little restraint so as not to mess all that up.
Cheers
P.S. As I said, in the future, I'm not going to wade into any more discussions of the quality of the Realms fiction line as a whole. I just have too much writing to do to waste my time on roundabout debates. So let this be my definitive word on the subject.
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 20 Mar 2011 16:35:36
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 18:34:54
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It's really sad that such a reputation exists. I know that I and Sage both try to keep discussions civil, regardless of the topic or our own opinions on it. And I also know I've been attacked for that more than once, usually by people who did not share my particular opinion.
As I've said more than once, it doesn't matter what your opinion is -- just be specific, and don't be a jerk about it.
Most of the people here follow those basic guidelines. But it only takes a few to ruin things for everyone else, and that seems to be what's happening here. If people want authors and designers to not come here, well, they're making nice progress towards that goal. Why someone would want that is beyond me, but that seems to be the goal.
All we're asking for is a little courtesy and respect. Is that really so much to ask for? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 19:04:56
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Same reason I have to go privately email Rich Baker...he was kind when he left; but I'm rather sure he was tired of the negative slamming again and again.
I love the Forgotten Realms...and I know I wouldn't have it AT ALL if it weren't for the authors, designers, and etc.
Do I not like some material published by Wizards, of course I don't like some of the material...but that is a personal measure of an individual product.
One of those individual things happened to be the Spellplague and the advent of the 4th Edition Realms. Now, I like the 4th Edition Rules...but I just have no use for the 4e Realms.
Does that mean I'm going to slam anything related to the 4e Realms? Nope, just a general disapproval of the direction it went...but I still have a helluva lot of respect for folks at Wizards in general and see quite often that their business is business.
I'm sorry that Erik felt the need to ask for civility. It makes me sad; because in honesty, Candlekeep is one of the last bastions of regular discourse on the Forgotten Realms...and it is that way because of the very folks like Erik that come here to willingly talk about their works that so many enjoy.
If I've been one to be uncivil, my apologies now...though I hope it wasn't me.  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 19:26:26
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No one should feel personally put on the hot seat here.
I'm addressing a general trend, not specific posters or specific instances.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 20:09:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
What *does* bother me is the discourtesy in discourse. For instance, people feel free to say things like (to paraphrase) "well, Realms novels are just slush entertainment--of course they don't have any depth," or "of course XXX novel sucks--what did you expect? It's just FR."
These aren't direct insults, but they're prejudicial and pejorative. That isn't saying one book sucks or even a bunch of books suck--it's saying all the books suck, by definition, and that's not fair.
Obviously, regardless of claims to the contrary, this is directed at my 'cheap dime novel' comment.
I stand by the comment. The Realms is licensed fiction for hire, and if you are insulted at that point being made... well, that sounds like a personal problem. Saying the Realms novels are 'cheap dime novels' is NOT a prejorative insult, except to the small-minded. People who dismiss 'wierd fiction' or consider all fantasy as crap. Such people are not to be found on these forums.
I was offended at the way you keep paraphrasing my comments into an insult and splattering it around the internet. But c'est la vie. Obviously you felt strongly about it.
As for Rich Baker leaving... is Candlekeep for the fans or for WotC? WotC angered a LOT of people over the years with the changes they made to the Realms. There was a fairly united, fairly happy FR community prior to 3e, and they choose to fracture that. Rich Baker made many of those decisions, as I understand it. So, again, I say c'est la vie. (it is a shame, I loved the Last Mythal trilogy)
Personal insults should never be tolerated on any forum, but I believe these calls for 'civility' boil down to a desire to silence those who dislike WotC's handling of the Realms. That sounds like something that the WotC boards would do, not Candlekeep.
Before anyone knee-jerks a response on this, ask yourself, when was the last time someone got called out for being rude while defending whatever the current WotC version of the Realms is?
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 20:28:08
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
Before anyone knee-jerks a response on this, ask yourself, when was the last time someone got called out for being rude while defending whatever the current WotC version of the Realms is?
Well, I have not seen many defending current version, however I did see a few called out in Edition change.
You of course are entitle to hold your opinion.
If I was a moderator here I would have had a more heavy hand on more then one because of what they posted. Some I would warn privately first, however repeats could and IMO should result in ban. Maybe the first a short time, repeats a longer time.
Be happy I am not on mod staff. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 20:33:17
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
[quote]
As for Rich Baker leaving... is Candlekeep for the fans or for WotC? WotC angered a LOT of people over the years with the changes they made to the Realms. There was a fairly united, fairly happy FR community prior to 3e, and they choose to fracture that. Rich Baker made many of those decisions, as I understand it. So, again, I say c'est la vie. (it is a shame, I loved the Last Mythal trilogy)
All I can say on this: there would be no FANS if there was no PRODUCT.
Lets look at this plainly: many people playing in a game continue to play in the game even if they don't like what the DM is doing...while others will willingly leave.
The catch here is that the DM of the Forgotten Realms happens to be a corp. that needs to make money; so it tried an avenue to increase its money. That made some angry, others resigned to their fate, and still others happy.
It doesn't matter where someone stands on an issue; but making sweeping statements are NEVER accurate about individual products. Never. To make a sweeping statement to the negative IS always going to offend however...blanket profiling is bad.
Entertainment, especially written entertainment, is my way of spending my personal time...and the authors of Forgotten Realms novels are just as good as the likes of Jordan, Howard and others that have written many years before. Sure, they are constrained somewhat in what they are allowed to write about; but until a CRITIC can publish something even remotely similar...maybe they should just sit back and allow others enjoyment instead of being critical of people who ARE published.
And this isn't a knee-jerk comment...this is me tired of criticism from people who try to make superior comments about products they couldn't have managed to do on their best day. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 20:57:59
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
Obviously, regardless of claims to the contrary, this is directed at my 'cheap dime novel' comment.
I'll confess yours is one of the posts that prompted this thread, and I'm obviously using this as an example, but I'm not directing my OP at anything or anyone in particular. That's just the latest example.
And for full disclosure, I responded 2-3 times in that thread and posted a paraphrase of our discussion on my facebook, without your name. That's it.
And I stand by my assertion that if you say something that insults someone, it is an insult, whether you meant it as an insult or not. No amount of logic is going to mean 1 + 1 =/= 2.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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wwwwwww
Learned Scribe
116 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 20:58:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
It doesn't matter where someone stands on an issue; but making sweeping statements are NEVER accurate about individual products. Never. To make a sweeping statement to the negative IS always going to offend however...blanket profiling is bad.
That's very true. I know an FR author who has unapologetically made unnecessary, negative "sweeping statements" (on this very board) toward Christianity and general morals that I've personally found quite insulting. He has spoken his opinions as if they are fact, when in truth, they are merely his opinions. |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 21:13:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And I stand by my assertion that if you say something that insults someone, it is an insult, whether you meant it as an insult or not. No amount of logic is going to mean 1 + 1 =/= 2.
Really? You must go through life apologizing then, because I guarentee you that people have been insulted by things you said which you never intended were insults, and which reasonable people would not consider insults.
Your last sentance is true, albeit ironic in this context.
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 21:28:57
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quote:
Originally posted by wwwwwww
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
It doesn't matter where someone stands on an issue; but making sweeping statements are NEVER accurate about individual products. Never. To make a sweeping statement to the negative IS always going to offend however...blanket profiling is bad.
That's very true. I know an FR author who has unapologetically made unnecessary, negative "sweeping statements" (on this very board) toward Christianity and general morals that I've personally found quite insulting. He has spoken his opinions as if they are fact, when in truth, they are merely his opinions.
I would stand and say that they are wrong then (if I were you); but be clear that while you might believe in something, doesn't mean that they have to. However, one person may accept as reality something entirely different than someone else's reality.
For example: until about a month ago, I was a devout "Temple Worthy Mormon" and today I'm not...but I won't go into details on this; only making the point that one day someone can accept something as true, and the next not accept it as true.
Intent is an issue that few take the time to realize. By not apologizing for an opinion that someone holds as true to them, they are not actually "bad" in my book. I may think they are wrong, or even lunatic, but perception is what it is really about.
If Westermeyer holds that Forgotten Realms Novels are "cheap dime novels" then that is his opinion...however he need not voice it with the INTENT of forcing that opinion on others; he does have that right of belief though.
If Erik wants to ask for more civility, he has that right as well.
While I don't know the particulars in this case, I can say that repeatedly berating something/someone is always going to come off as deliberate attack. If you have an opinion about something that is in the negative, then express it if you wish...but don't continually do so as few want to hear the negative so often.
Don't take part in discussions/threads that you feel are garbage, all you are going to do is come off as an aggressor out to do harm. Why would someone want to take part in a debate in which they have nothing positive to contribute unless they are trying to be persuasive and tear down?
Should people be allowed to dislike something and be vocal about it? Sure, why the heck not!? It doesn't mean that they have to convince others to feel the same way...that just comes across as petty and often as jealousy and/or vengeance. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 21:48:47
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And I stand by my assertion that if you say something that insults someone, it is an insult, whether you meant it as an insult or not. No amount of logic is going to mean 1 + 1 =/= 2.
Really? You must go through life apologizing then, because I guarentee you that people have been insulted by things you said which you never intended were insults, and which reasonable people would not consider insults.
Your last sentance is true, albeit ironic in this context.
And I'm sure he apologized, as well. If someone feels insulted by something you say, and tells you as much, it's only courteous to apologize -- unless you specifically intended it as an insult. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 22:56:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And I stand by my assertion that if you say something that insults someone, it is an insult, whether you meant it as an insult or not. No amount of logic is going to mean 1 + 1 =/= 2.
Really? You must go through life apologizing then, because I guarentee you that people have been insulted by things you said which you never intended were insults, and which reasonable people would not consider insults.
Your last sentance is true, albeit ironic in this context.
And I'm sure he apologized, as well. If someone feels insulted by something you say, and tells you as much, it's only courteous to apologize -- unless you specifically intended it as an insult.
I explained myself right away. Is some sort of ritual kow-tow required? I think that goes beyond the bounds of courtsy or civility.
In fact, I rather take offense at being indirectly labeled a jerk but I'm not asking for apologies. I'm assuming it is unintentional, and if not... c'est la vie. (damn, I'm really into that phrase lately). |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 23:05:53
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You know, it really is not what any is intended to post, it is what actually is posted.
Text does not convey vocal tones, body language and a personal interaction. The silly smilies can to some extend try to convey tone text is intended to take. However a poor substitute for fully understanding tone and the intention of the post. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 23:59:58
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| GMWestermeyer: As I said in another post not long ago, I recognize your right to express whatever opinion in whatever language suits you. But are you not being a bit disingenuous when you indicate that you used the word "cheap" with no intent to insult, condescend, or belittle? |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 00:17:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
GMWestermeyer: As I said in another post not long ago, I recognize your right to express whatever opinion in whatever language suits you. But are you not being a bit disingenuous when you indicate that you used the word "cheap" with no intent to insult, condescend, or belittle?
I don't think so, no. As far as I'm concerned, it is accurate nomenclature. Unless WotC has suddenly started paying a hell of a lot more than they used to.
I've been an advocate of FR novels for decades, I'm not going to apologize for accurately identifying them. Certainly not just because the new FR writers don't seem to understand the history of the fantasy genre.
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 00:22:49
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
GMWestermeyer: As I said in another post not long ago, I recognize your right to express whatever opinion in whatever language suits you. But are you not being a bit disingenuous when you indicate that you used the word "cheap" with no intent to insult, condescend, or belittle?
I don't think so, no. As far as I'm concerned, it is accurate nomenclature. Unless WotC has suddenly started paying a hell of a lot more than they used to.
I've been an advocate of FR novels for decades, I'm not going to apologize for accurately identifying them. Certainly not just because the new FR writers don't seem to understand the history of the fantasy genre.
Could you relate your professional criteria for doing so? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 00:29:26
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
...the new FR writers don't seem to understand the history of the fantasy genre.
Broad brush there, brother. I'm a new FR writer, a student of the genre, teach fantasy and science fiction writing with an eye to the foundational texts going back to the Greeks, and have been a finalist for the Hugo, Nebula, and World Fantasy Awards. I understand the history of the fantasy genre. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 00:32:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
...the new FR writers don't seem to understand the history of the fantasy genre.
Broad brush there, brother. I'm a new FR writer, a student of the genre, teach fantasy and science fiction writing with an eye to the foundational texts going back to the Greeks, and have been a finalist for the Hugo, Nebula, and World Fantasy Awards. I understand the history of the fantasy genre.
 Professional Criteria!  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 00:34:22
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GMWestermeyer: I'm sixty years old and have been a devoted fantasy reader for more than fifty of them. I imagine I know at least as much about the history of the genre as you do.
But if you say your intent really was not to insult, then okay, fair enough. I will try not to feel insulted. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 00:43:43
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I'm quite disappointed that we've reached this point in what should otherwise be a courteous and friendly exchange of opinions about novels that both respect ALL the sides involved, and demonstrate the quality and capability of our community of scribes.
Now, obviously, this just isn't the case. And I applaud Erik for bringing this to the attention of others, because it's something both Wooly and I have been growing concerned about over the last year. But I'm also saddened by the fact that it has become such an issue.
As always happens in such cases, though, I can't help but feel that we are all partly responsible for allowing this to degenerate as far as it has. I know that I'm now questioning my own abilities and function as a Moderator here at Candlekeep, and doubting myself as to whether I've strived to do all I can to make this a welcome environment for both WotC staff and scribe alike.
This is a sad day for us all. And I'd really appreciate that we all heed Erik's advice to give thought to each and every comment we make here. Not just about opinions on novels, either, but opinions on the incessant pre- and post-Spellplague debates, commentary on various other Realms works, and most other aspects of this setting we love.
Please, remember, Candlekeep exists BECAUSE we all wish to discuss our passions for this world. If we start to make one or the other feel unwelcome and unable to freely discuss what they love or how they've worked with the Realms, then we are -- all of us -- really just wasting our time.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Renzokuken
Acolyte
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 02:14:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
[quote]
As for Rich Baker leaving... is Candlekeep for the fans or for WotC? WotC angered a LOT of people over the years with the changes they made to the Realms. There was a fairly united, fairly happy FR community prior to 3e, and they choose to fracture that. Rich Baker made many of those decisions, as I understand it. So, again, I say c'est la vie. (it is a shame, I loved the Last Mythal trilogy)
All I can say on this: there would be no FANS if there was no PRODUCT.
I know nothing about this argument but that last statement bothers me:
There would be no PRODUCT without the FANS. |
Currently reading: Dark Elf Trilogy (FR) |
Edited by - Renzokuken on 07 Mar 2011 02:15:39 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 02:19:31
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"There would be no PRODUCT without the FANS."
Agreed.
My two pennies and nothing more. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 02:22:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Renzokuken
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
[quote]
As for Rich Baker leaving... is Candlekeep for the fans or for WotC? WotC angered a LOT of people over the years with the changes they made to the Realms. There was a fairly united, fairly happy FR community prior to 3e, and they choose to fracture that. Rich Baker made many of those decisions, as I understand it. So, again, I say c'est la vie. (it is a shame, I loved the Last Mythal trilogy)
All I can say on this: there would be no FANS if there was no PRODUCT.
I know nothing about this argument but that last statement bothers me:
There would be no PRODUCT without the FANS.
Well my friend, in this case the Forgotten Realms came first...fans came later. While the Realms, she has been changin'; she is still the Forgotten Realms.
Personally, just like music, the Realms has changed too much for me to follow much any longer...though the new realms is actually cool (don't get me wrong...I LIKE the 4e Realms; but as an alternate world or wholly different campaign world...she just aint my love that one).
And as the likes of Aerosmith, ACDC and such are able to show...the fan base can drop away and the thing still be the thing. 
In one fell swoop, WotC could literally pull the plug on all things Forgotten Realms related. Then there could be no fans because there would be no product. Sure, underground in our homes maybe; but even Candlekeep might be capable of being axed.
Shudder at the thought though I may... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 03:06:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In one fell swoop, WotC could literally pull the plug on all things Forgotten Realms related. Then there could be no fans because there would be no product. Sure, underground in our homes maybe; but even Candlekeep might be capable of being axed.
Shudder at the thought though I may...
Actually not. If WotC stops supporting at least one ED FR novel per year (or pays him not to write)the ownership of FR reverts back to Ed.
At least that is how the contract is reported to read. From all indications Ed does not want ownership back because it would complicate his life, however WotC can not kill FR. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 03:06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Broad brush there, brother. I'm a new FR writer, a student of the genre, teach fantasy and science fiction writing with an eye to the foundational texts going back to the Greeks, and have been a finalist for the Hugo, Nebula, and World Fantasy Awards. I understand the history of the fantasy genre.
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
GMWestermeyer: I'm sixty years old and have been a devoted fantasy reader for more than fifty of them. I imagine I know at least as much about the history of the genre as you do.
Then why the hell were you insulted by 'cheap setting fiction' or 'dime novel.' Hell, especially dime novel?
Too good to be compared to Lovecraft, Doyle, Burroughs, Howard, ect, ect?
I don't think so, I don't think any of you are that arrogant. I think you guys are just touchy as hell. So, I understand the initial hurt. I don't get the continued complaints after I said, hey, I like dime novels, I like setting fiction.
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
But if you say your intent really was not to insult, then okay, fair enough. I will try not to feel insulted.
Good call. If I accuse you of writing bad cheap setting fiction or an unreadable dime novel feel free tojump all over me.
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 03:29:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In one fell swoop, WotC could literally pull the plug on all things Forgotten Realms related. Then there could be no fans because there would be no product. Sure, underground in our homes maybe; but even Candlekeep might be capable of being axed.
Shudder at the thought though I may...
Actually not. If WotC stops supporting at least one ED FR novel per year (or pays him not to write)the ownership of FR reverts back to Ed.
At least that is how the contract is reported to read. From all indications Ed does not want ownership back because it would complicate his life, however WotC can not kill FR.
Really?
Now that is wonderful news...if it is true. Is there any way to confirm that? I'd eat the paper it would take to hold my statement if I could find confirmation on that! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 03:41:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
...the new FR writers don't seem to understand the history of the fantasy genre.
Broad brush there, brother. I'm a new FR writer, a student of the genre, teach fantasy and science fiction writing with an eye to the foundational texts going back to the Greeks, and have been a finalist for the Hugo, Nebula, and World Fantasy Awards. I understand the history of the fantasy genre.
Professional Criteria!
You mean credentials. 'Criteria' would be a list of characteristics that indicate something. For example, one of the criteria of fantasy fiction is that it include elements that are fantastic or magical.
Yes, posting this makes me a pedantic ass.
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 04:47:01
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
...the new FR writers don't seem to understand the history of the fantasy genre.
Broad brush there, brother. I'm a new FR writer, a student of the genre, teach fantasy and science fiction writing with an eye to the foundational texts going back to the Greeks, and have been a finalist for the Hugo, Nebula, and World Fantasy Awards. I understand the history of the fantasy genre.
Professional Criteria!
You mean credentials. 'Criteria' would be a list of characteristics that indicate something. For example, one of the criteria of fantasy fiction is that it include elements that are fantastic or magical.
Yes, posting this makes me a pedantic ass.
Nope, I meant Criteria: as in what Criteria do you have that indicates you are qualified to criticize the writing of others? The meaning of a word is full of mutation for me...the main reason I'll never be a published writer is that I don't think words maintain their originial meaning for very long...relatively speaking of course.
And yes...it would make you a pedantic ass; but I still kinda like ya for all your bluster and spouting off.
I've always been a fan of saying what is on my mind...I just suppose it is the way people should be; its just that WRITING thoughts and ideas is far more dangerous than speaking them. The entire issue you have regarding the writing of novels...if carried out in a coffee house with the very people that feel insulted by you on a forum...well, I dare say it wouldn't be quite so heated with so many butt-hurt over it. 
I'm likely wrong...but I hope so at any rate. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 04:50:38
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Now you're just splitting hairs.
While I can understand the distinction between good and bad "dime novels", (And honestly, how can you even call them that when the average cover price for a paperback version is 6$??!!) the simple truth is that that type of fiction has gotten a bad rep over the years, so calling something "cheap setting fiction" is akin to calling it trash, no matter WHAT your intent. And never mind that even Ian Flemming and Arthur Conan Doyle, among others, wrote that type of fiction. It's not just the words you used, GMW, it's WHAT they have come to MEAN. To most (reasonable) people, that is indeed an insult, regardless of whether it is meant that way. Pulp and dime fiction is generally looked down on by many people as the bottom of the literary heap. Even though some of our greatest works of the last century WERE of this type of writing. Most people just don't realize that, and lump the good together wit hte bad as general rubbish. So I fully understand why someone would get insulted by such comments- it has everything to do with the context. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 05:09:38
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I don't post a lot but I have been following these forums for a very very long time. I understand Erik's sentiments as there are some posters here that have very strong opinions about FR material. I feel it stems from the passion for the setting.
That being said I would like to say that GMWestermeyer, you are one of the biggest curmudgeons to post on this board. You have a sense of superiority and contemptuousness to your posts that I find very distasteful. The sad thing is that you do seem to have some useful things to contribute. It just gets buried in this avalanche of negativity.
I'm sorry Wolly, Sage and Erik for speaking out like this as I don't mean to escalate the conversation. But I felt the need to defend the FR authors. They deserve the utmost respect for contributing here regardless of what our thoughts are of them or their work. |
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A Plea for Civility
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