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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 17:53:15
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| I have upon occasion contacted individual Candlekeep scribes with questions. There are people here who are experts on particular regions. Many are willing to share their expertise. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 19:05:25
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I've been asked questions myself, by 'official types', and I do not share that information (nor intend to, so don't bother asking).
I am sure - considering my own opinions about a LOT of things - that if I am being approached (rarely , but it has happened), then others here have as well, so we are being used, albeit covertly.
And I would second the 'lurkers' comment - I know of at least two authors who participate here discreetly. Kudos to them - thats probably the best way to keep folks from taking guesses about future products.
And since this does occur, I am a bit suspect in regards to someone saying "don't go to CK" is an official policy, rather then someone's opinion, as Elaine has pointed out. I can think of at least two designers who probably feel that way, but I doubt they have any power to enforce such a policy (telling an author what research resources he/she can use really enters some scary 'medieval' territory, ya know?)
I think someone telling others "where not to go" says more about their own insecurities then about the site they were warned away from. If people don't like what you 'create', you shouldn't be questioning the opinions, you should be questioning your own qualifications. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Apr 2011 19:06:59 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 02:04:38
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I like to contribute where I can. The various authors and game designers who regularly visit these halls know that I'm more than willing to assist in any additional Realms fact-checking and/or research should their need require it.
But I don't like to pressure them over this, or hammer-home the issue repeatedly. I'm here when you need me.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 03:00:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I like to contribute where I can. The various authors and game designers who regularly visit these halls know that I'm more than willing to assist in any additional Realms fact-checking and/or research should their need require it.
But I don't like to pressure them over this, or hammer-home the issue repeatedly. I'm here when you need me.
I think this is how most of us feel. I recall when Stephen asked about Osco's eyepatch; I really wanted to be the one to answer that question. When I got home from work that day, my first priority was digging out that comic, and then I was worried someone would have beaten me to the punch!  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 03:20:59
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Not having yet dealt with the Wizards' Editors, I cannot comment on them specifically. I will agree with the founding post of this scroll and say that when I write non-fiction, I have a lot of control in the editorial process. When it comes to fiction, the world is a whole different place. Some companies go to great lengths to ensure continuity is their worlds (Elaine mentioned Lucasfilms as a good example) whereas others do not. (Star Trek is a great example. The fiction lines are constantly overwriting one another's "facts" and they use original episodes as "canon" when those episodes contradict one another.)
I have met and known many published authors who agree with Jim Lowder's comment on sequel rights, and the copyright holders' legal departments generally say the equivalent of, "if you want your own universe, go write it." The more popular a given universe, the less likely an author is to have control over sequels without a very good contract reviewed by one's own attorney(ies).
With all that being said...
quote:
GMWestermeyer said: Should we be blaming the editors more vociferously for things we don't like?
I don't like the word "blame" very much. I never blame an author for attempting to tell a tale to amuse his or her readers. I also can't blame editors for doing their jobs, which is to try and bring novels in on time, on budget, and other factors that may or may not include continuity checks. I do know that an author who wishes to write for a company again generally doesn't publically state "I'm sorry this book is bad: my editors made me do it." I also know that, to my knowledge, I've never read a book where the author didn't dislike at least something that was edited. This, of course, is why companies have editors - otherwise the authors would just do it themselves.
As an author, if I'm approached to write a story, I tease out answers to the following questions introspectively:
- Can I tell this story in a way that I convey 90% of what I hope to at the end of the publishing process?
- How much are they paying me and how badly do I need the money?
- Am I treading on someone else's work when I write, and if so, do I have access to that person (or his/her representative) for at least the courtesy of allowing that person to review my work prior to publishing?
If I am unhappy with the answers to any of the questions, I will decline to write for the publisher. This can range from a small article to a book. If I'm not being compensated, I expect more freedom to write and self-edit, but I never turn down an editor's eye. I know a couple of authors who felt they had perfectly good reviewing and editing eyes, and ate a lot of crow when their books went out with pretty-significant typographical errors.
Accordingly, I would have to say that an author is a fool not to use all resources available to him or her, but so too is the author who breaches an NDA in the name of research. Since I haven't (yet) been published for fiction, I'm not comfortable saying WoTC editors are X or Y. I rely upon those authors here who both grace us with their presence and are willing to share their stories with us for that information.
My non-fiction editors don't fall into the overly-controlling authors category. And (with apologies to Bruce Cordell) some authors take it upon themselves to rewrite or overwrite FR lore without so much as a "by your leave" to previous authors. Ed never had a concept for Lord Ao in his original Realms. Scott Ciencin and the Avatar Trilogy project team needed Ao to advance a plot. However, Bruce tossed out a random line in his Key of Stars that casually mentioned some creatures in his novel were incredibly powerful compared to Ao. (Paraphrased terribly)
The reason I draw this out isn't to bash Bruce, but to say that if WoTC editors were truly making authors change things, I would expect said editors to remove that type of language. It serves no purpose toward the plot, and it basically says "my book can beat up the god in your book" as Ao doesn't interact with the Player Characters, at least not in any game of which I am aware. Troy Denning's destruction of "The Lords who Sleep" strikes me as another area that, if the editors were engaged, they'd say "This really doesn't advance the plot - let's remove this section." I have never heard an editor tell an author, "you must write this line of prose exactly as I dictate because I want it in your story."
However, and I say this most emphatically, the Realms get more complex as the franchise makes WoTC more money. Back when TSR was trying really hard to get everyone to adopt the Second Edition AD&D, I suspect it was much easier for the authors to coordinate as there weren't yet that many of them. So while it gets harder to be an author in the 3E/4E Realms, it also gets harder to be an editor.
In closing, I think that both the authors and the editors who work on the Realms try their best to produce a product that consumers will want. My own agreements or disagreements with their methods are not a factor in how effective (or good) an author or editor may be. I just assert that I find it ineffective to blame anyone. Those authors who produce books I like, I thank. If said author thanks his or her editor in a novel's acknowledgments, I tacitly thank said editor, too. Thank you to those who have read my novella here. May all of your spells go off as cast.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 19:11:10
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Good post, Azuth.
Shared-world writing isn't for everyone. There are built-in boundaries, and you've pointed out one of the main reasons: To keep novelist (and game designers, for that matter) from writing over the work of other writers. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 19:21:35
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AGREED - EXCELLENT post.
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
<snip> It serves no purpose toward the plot, and it basically says "my book can beat up the god in your book" as Ao doesn't interact with the Player Characters, at least not in any game of which I am aware. Troy Denning's destruction of "The Lords who Sleep" strikes me as another area that, if the editors were engaged, they'd say "This really doesn't advance the plot - let's remove this section."
I think I want to have your babies....
Just kidding. Still, you've captured the essence of many folk's concerns.
THE thing editor's should try to look for and stamp-out MOST of all in a shared-world is the one-up-manship of some authors. It DESTROYED the Thieves World anthologies; by the time the (original) series neared it's end, nearly every main character was the child of some god. It went from entertaining to ridiculous.
"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all. " - GOD, Futurama |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Apr 2011 19:27:33 |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 19:52:34
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Good post, Azuth.
Shared-world writing isn't for everyone. There are built-in boundaries, and you've pointed out one of the main reasons: To keep novelist (and game designers, for that matter) from writing over the work of other writers.
All the more reason you have my utmost respect, Elaine. And, you took on two author's work with Daughter of the Drow!
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 20:14:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
AGREED - EXCELLENT post.
I think I want to have your babies....
Hmm. I'm not holding your hand whilst your in labor, but I do want half of the jackpot for the first man to give birth. 
Just kidding. Still, you've captured the essence of many folk's concerns.
THE thing editor's should try to look for and stamp-out MOST of all in a shared-world is the one-up-manship of some authors. It DESTROYED the Thieves World anthologies; by the time the (original) series neared it's end, nearly every main character was the child of some god. It went from entertaining to ridiculous.
True, but remember that Greek/Roman mythology had many divine offspring. When that aspect of the character becomes central to the story rather than an interesting element of the plot, however, I agree that it is no longer entertaining.
I guess I'd add the following to my lengthy post above:
The real people with whom I suspect most scribes who dislike 2E/3E/4E should take issue with are neither authors nor editors. Every large company generally has a "product line director" who determines how said line will be handled. WoTC undoubtedly has one (or more...*shudder*) controlling The Forgotten Realms product. These are the people who decide what major changes will ultimately happen—or not—in the Realms. It may be up to the authors and game designers to determine how exactly these edicts will be implemented, but no single author, save perhaps Ed, can force something upon the corporation. Ed has specific contracts with TSR that were absorbed by Wizards when they acquired the Realms, and while we probably will never know what those contracts state, or what his NDAs do and don't allow, Ed has stated many times that "his Realms" are different. Of course, he's just referring to his home campaign, but because he's Ed, people read more into his words than if anyone else says it.
That's a really long way of saying - don't blame the editor or the author for someone else's decisions. (Try not to blame anyone, as I said above; rightly or wrongly, these people are trying to do their jobs. I had coffee this morning with one of my fiction-writing friends, and she told me that her answer to the question(s) GMWestermeyer posits in his original post are, "Now there's a tale I'd love to tell. However, I don't always get to tell tales the way I'd like, and such is the way of life." I am of the opinion that these qualify as "wise words."
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 21:07:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
And, you took on two author's work with Daughter of the Drow!
Trust me, that was a daunting prospect. The first thing I did when I got the contract was call Bob Salvatore and discuss Menzoberranzan. This was his creation, and I didn't want to do anything that would create problems for him down the line.
The biggest digression from drow lore--that Liriel was not considered a member of her mother's House--was actually Bob's suggestion. We discussed Brian Thomsen's directives concerning Liriel: She was supposed to be a member of a powerful family, but not someone who would disrupt the balance of power in the city, and she needed to do something that could potentially be troublesome for that family. An example Brian gave was if Prince Andrew, brother of the Prince of Wales, got into some sort of business-related misadventure. Not fatal for the crown, but troublesome. Liriel needed to have position, yet be on the edge of the drow culture. So Bob suggested, "Make her Gromph's daughter." That pulled together all the pieces.
I also checked with him before hinting in the novella "The Blooding" that Jarlaxle and Liriel met when she was a teenager (in drow terms) and that he taught her to throw knives and, as Liriel slyly put it, "other things, as well." Bob said, and I quote, "Yup. That sounds like something he'd do."
It is possible to interlap territory and even characters, but it takes communication and respect.
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 00:35:37
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
And, you took on two author's work with Daughter of the Drow!
Trust me, that was a daunting prospect. The first thing I did when I got the contract was call Bob Salvatore and discuss Menzoberranzan. This was his creation, and I didn't want to do anything that would create problems for him down the line.
The biggest digression from drow lore--that Liriel was not considered a member of her mother's House--was actually Bob's suggestion. We discussed Brian Thomsen's directives concerning Liriel: She was supposed to be a member of a powerful family, but not someone who would disrupt the balance of power in the city, and she needed to do something that could potentially be troublesome for that family. An example Brian gave was if Prince Andrew, brother of the Prince of Wales, got into some sort of business-related misadventure. Not fatal for the crown, but troublesome. Liriel needed to have position, yet be on the edge of the drow culture. So Bob suggested, "Make her Gromph's daughter." That pulled together all the pieces.
I also checked with him before hinting in the novella "The Blooding" that Jarlaxle and Liriel met when she was a teenager (in drow terms) and that he taught her to throw knives and, as Liriel slyly put it, "other things, as well." Bob said, and I quote, "Yup. That sounds like something he'd do."
It is possible to interlap territory and even characters, but it takes communication and respect.
Aye, communications and respect are critical. I once met Bob at a book signing and asked him if he would ever consider using Liriel in a cameo appearance, to which he replied something like, "Oh, only Elaine can write her - I have Cattie Brie and I can't handle more than one woman at a time!" |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 00:37:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
I once met Bob at a book signing and asked him if he would ever consider using Liriel in a cameo appearance, to which he replied something like, "Oh, only Elaine can write her - I have Cattie Brie and I can't handle more than one woman at a time!"
Great line.  |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 02:45:05
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I believe he's introduced a new woman in the last book - although I'm not recalling her name. While I don't want to put too much thought into my memories versus Elaine's actual experiences, I pretty much took away from my quick meeting with Bob that he thought Liriel was Elaine's character and hers to develop. I would love to see a collaboration, but what I want and what can be are almost always in opposition. Anyway, I'm glad we've managed to bring this topic into friendlier tones, but I suspect future posts like this should go into either questions for Elaine, or a discussion on her work.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
But somewhat moot, now..... D'ya think he'd consider it now, with Cat basically out of the picture? I've always wondered what would happen if she and Drizzt ever met.....
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 03:37:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
I suspect future posts like this should go into either questions for Elaine, or a discussion on her work.
Probably a good idea. There IS a bit of thread drift happening. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 20:14:06
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
It is possible to interlap territory and even characters, but it takes communication and respect.
We need an applauding smiley.
Cheers Elaine. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 21:37:16
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I hope I'm not raining on y'all's love-fest in progress...
RAS, himself, has gotten a bum rap because lots of elements in his stories--especially those set in earlier editions--have appeared to diverge from or even contradict the game rules and established lore. Bob has often been seen as the one who was/is at fault for that.
But is that really appropriate? Is it more the individual author's responsibility to ensure precise game/lore/novel continuity, or the editors'? If it is the editors', then have they perhaps gotten less of a bum rap than they've deserved, at least in Bob's case?
Bob had a big blow-up with TSR back around the end of 2E, and WOTC came onboard and patched things up with him, but he has been a little vague as to how that has translated in terms of his own author-editor relationship, since the takeover. I get the impression that, as one of the Big Kahunas of the Realms, he still gets a lot of leeway from editors--if for no other reason than to avoid having another big blow-up. Perhaps the end result is that he gets more leeway than what other writers get? If so, would that be more of a statement of editorial performance, or corporate policy?
At any rate, I've suggested to him that his stories could still use more of the fact-checking and continuity-policing that has been talked about in this scroll, as long as the parties involved acted so as to preserve his artistic freedom in the process. It shouldn't be about telling an author "No, you can't do that," so much as "No, you can't do that in that way, but you could try these alternatives instead."
(Once upon a time, I had the opportunity to read up on modern military general safety procedures, which, borrowing from the industrial and technological fields, has become known by the phrase "Operational Risk Management", or "ORM". One of the most noteworthy things that I remember reading in the ORM literature was that a safety officer or Operational Risk Manager should only spend roughly half his resources outlining operational risks; he should then spend the other half of his resources actively facilitating implementation of the unit's mission. Translated: a safety officer should only spend half his resources telling the organization's members what they cannot do because of the safety hazards involved, and then spend the other half positively advising the unit's members how they can indeed proceed with unit operations. This stood out in my mind because, in my personal experience, safety officers had traditionally been viewed as primarily negative sorts, impeding progress by simply saying "No, that's unsafe" to whatever activities were suggested. In terms of editing Realms fiction, I've described editors as needing to say "No, Bob, you can't do that because of A,B,C; but you could try X,Y,Z instead--that would basically accomplish the same thing, without breaking any rules, or by explaining the detour from the established lore, right?")
And another thing: regardless of who exactly has gotten the bum rap and who has deserved it when it comes to discrepancies im RAS's stories, his works have been re-published and re-packaged time and time again in various editions--and many/most of those discrepancies have been retained. Now, who should get the bum rap for that?
I understand that going back and fixing a bunch of old works could easily be considered cost-prohibitive. Maybe that renders this more of a financial/business decision, than an editorial one?
It strikes me as odd that WOTC seems to demonstrate a reluctance both to consult with us beforehand and to fix the glitches afterwards. Yes, Bob's stuff sells well, even in re-re-packaged form, so in financial terms, it might not seem necessary or cost-effective to bother going back and fixing the discrepancies. But then again, his stuff sells well, which means that there are a whole lot of his books out there, complete with all those preserved glitches, and it all reflects back on the publisher (editors, or otherwise). |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 21:51:16
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I hope I'm not raining on y'all's love-fest in progress...
RAS, himself, has gotten a bum rap because lots of elements in his stories--especially those set in earlier editions--have appeared to diverge from or even contradict the game rules and established lore. Bob has often been seen as the one who was/is at fault for that.
But is that really appropriate? Is it more the individual author's responsibility to ensure precise game/lore/novel continuity, or the editors'? If it is the editors', then have they perhaps gotten less of a bum rap than they've deserved, at least in Bob's case?
Bob had a big blow-up with TSR back around the end of 2E, and WOTC came onboard and patched things up with him, but he has been a little vague as to how that has translated in terms of his own author-editor relationship, since the takeover. I get the impression that, as one of the Big Kahunas of the Realms, he still gets a lot of leeway from editors--if for no other reason than to avoid having another big blow-up. Perhaps the end result is that he gets more leeway than what other writers get? If so, would that be more of a statement of editorial performance, or corporate policy?
At any rate, I've suggested to him that his stories could still use more of the fact-checking and continuity-policing that has been talked about in this scroll, as long as the parties involved acted so as to preserve his artistic freedom in the process. It shouldn't be about telling an author "No, you can't do that," so much as "No, you can't do that in that way, but you could try these alternatives instead."
<snip>
It strikes me as odd that WOTC seems to demonstrate a reluctance both to consult with us beforehand and to fix the glitches afterwards. Yes, Bob's stuff sells well, even in re-re-packaged form, so in financial terms, it might not seem necessary or cost-effective to bother going back and fixing the discrepancies. But then again, his stuff sells well, which means that there are a whole lot of his books out there, complete with all those preserved glitches, and it all reflects back on the publisher (editors, or otherwise).
Having read all of Bob's books in the Realms settings, I'm not certain as to which discrepancies you refer. However, if the corporation chooses not to enforce its own policies, then it is the responsible entity. If an editor has been told not to enforce policies, it remains the responsibility of the company for so instructing the editor. In no instance can Bob be blamed for writing a story how he wishes it to be told. That is the purpose of an author, and my opinion of his works is pretty considerable. I do know that, as a practice, it is extremely rare for a company to re-edit a book for a multitude of reasons. I do believe, however, that he did rewrite parts of the Icewind Dale trilogy to make it fall in line with his subsequent stories. I may be mistaken, but that's what I recall. |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 07:25:13
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
But is that really appropriate? Is it more the individual author's responsibility to ensure precise game/lore/novel continuity, or the editors'? If it is the editors', then have they perhaps gotten less of a bum rap than they've deserved, at least in Bob's case?
-Depends on what you want to define the duties of an editor (asides for spelling and grammar), I guess. Generally, speaking, though, I'm going to say the author. The nitty, gritty details, those things can be laid on the heads of editors, reviewers, and whoever else. But, if a ten page passage is completely out of wack with the way everything else works, and major story progression later on, and the the book as a whole are dependent on those out of wack facts, well...The author should be aware of such things beforehand. If that makes sense. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4487 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 10:59:27
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I don't think it's fair to restrain authors to a specific rule or gaming structure when writing in the Realms (or any other game-setting) because it just doesn't work like that. When I read Drizzt, I don't say to myself "Well, that's totally improbably since he has 5 attacks using a full-round action but in such-and-such scene he moved 40-ft. and killed 8 Orcs with only 3 attacks! He doesn't even have the Cleave feat!" This is because game rules, while interesting and useful at the table often have limiting explainations when expressing a specific's character unique-ness. This is even more true for those who cast spells, ofting injecting the reader's own Meta-game knowledge into the novel "Hey, that wizard was struggling with the Lightning bolt spell in the last chapter and now he's firing off 5 magic missiles? WTF?!"
The game rules are there for exactly that, the game aspect. Requiring authors to remain within those limits would surely hamper any sort of novel IMO. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
Edited by - Diffan on 05 Apr 2011 11:00:06 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 12:26:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I don't think it's fair to restrain authors to a specific rule or gaming structure when writing in the Realms (or any other game-setting) because it just doesn't work like that.
As long as novels are as canon as the rules and setting, not is it only fair it should be a requirement that authors be aware of the existing canon so that they do not break it. Oh the editors also have that duty as well.
As long as existing policy is in place it becomes the duty of both to know the existing lore and rules. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4487 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 13:27:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
As long as novels are as canon as the rules and setting, not is it only fair it should be a requirement that authors be aware of the existing canon so that they do not break it. Oh the editors also have that duty as well.
As long as existing policy is in place it becomes the duty of both to know the existing lore and rules.
But the rules are not canon nor should they ever have been. The rules change very so many years, changing how character work within those rules. So your saying the author who writes about a character that's hard to define rules-wise is bad or shouldn't be allowed because they don't adhere to a specific rule-set?! Or when X,Y,Z rule or race changes mechanics the author is now required to conform to the new rules? How's that maintaining continunity?
To give a quick example, a new player to D&D is used to 4E rules. But he wants to read how Drizzt came to be, so he picks up Homeland and is mystified that Drizzt can levitate and the confusion grows as Drizzt uses his Darkness ability more than once a combat. So who's the fault of not promoting continunity fall on? RAS or WotC? IMO the continunity falls in line with the setting, the characters, and the story-line first and foremost. Those are the most important parts about any setting that make it truly great.
The rules aspect of the game are arbitrary, and shoud be used as a guideline to gauge how powerful a specific character might be, not a set-in-stone rule that cannot be moved. So instead of saying a wizard can cast x-amount of Magic Missiles, it should be the wizard can just cast Magic Missile. Lessening the amount of description when it comes to the mechanical side of a novel would probably be a better step towards character freedom than spelling out the specifics of a novel that translates to game rules. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 13:49:05
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Yes, a change in the overall direction of the Realms can have an affect on continuity, as well as create a perception of "blame" for those who are inclined to assign it.
Consider the Battle of Keeper's Dale. The drow come to the surface and attack a coalition of humans and dwarves. They are winning until the sun comes up and their spells and magical items no longer function. Someone who reads this book ten years after it was written, someone with no knowledge of 2nd edition rules, is likely to respond with, "WTF? What was RAS thinking! This author doesn't follow the rules!"
Yeah, he did. He followed the rules that were in place WHILE HE WAS WRITING THE BOOK.
When you write something that fits the current rules, there's no guarantee that a future change won't make your work the topic of message board discussions with titles such as "Why don't the novels follow the game rules?" I've been mentioned in a few of those, including a thread in which one of the game designers WHO CHANGED THE RULES chimed in and agreed. I get emails such as, "In this book, you called X a wild elf when he was actually a forest elf." Well, when I wrote that book, wild/green/forrest were all synonyms for the same elven sub-race.
Or how about the Shadows & Starlight trilogy? In the first two books, Lirel's motivation was finding a way to bring her drow magic to the surface. WHIlE I WAS WRITING the third book, I learned that an upcoming rules change would make it possible for all drow to do this, no problem. This change completely undercut the premise of the first two books. I had three choices: 1) ignore the rule changes and go for internal consistency, 2) ignore the first two books and carry on without explantion or apology, or 3) find a way to write the rule change into the events of the novel. To my way of thinking, the third option was the only viable one.
What can I tell you? Things don't always fall perfectly into place. And it's my observation that attempts at retrofitting seldom improve the situation.
The Realms is a dynamic setting. Things change. Editors, writers, and designers come and go. When you think about it, the fact that the pieces fit together as well as they do is a pretty amazing accomplishment. |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 05 Apr 2011 13:49:53 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 14:08:44
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| To be clear, I have no problem with any novel written to the source books and lore in place at the time of it being written. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 14:28:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
Having read all of Bob's books in the Realms settings, I'm not certain as to which discrepancies you refer. <snip>
You mean like repeatedly misspelling Lolth as 'Lloth'.... only THE most important goddess as far as Drow are concerned? {smirk}
Hope they at least fixed that (I wouldn't know - I'm in the habit of buying ALL of RAS's FR books, but NOT twice).
Self-Edit: I had a bit of a Rant here, and decided to delete it all. Lets just say that after naming a city Baffenburg, I decided not to read Gauntlgrym... the very first RAS FR novel I chose not to read. Its become painfully clear to me that the Realms he writes in has no relation to the Realms everyone else writes in.
As for his editors... I just don't know what to think. Considering the shear volume of mistakes (extremely large ones, in some instances) that have crept into the novels over the years (almost everyone's, not just RAS's), it makes me wonder how well those editors actually know the setting.
And before Elaine decides to jump-in here and start defending again, I got three words for her - Tree of Souls.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Apr 2011 14:31:01 |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 14:39:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You mean like repeatedly misspelling Lolth as 'Lloth'.... only THE most important goddess as far as Drow are concerned? {smirk}
You know, this hot button issue never bothered me. I guess that comes from a lifetime of reading mythology. The names of gods and goddesses have so many variations from one culture to another, and for that matter so many transliteration spelling variations within cultures, that a slightly migrated "L" barely elicits a shrug.
quote:
And before Elaine decides to jump-in here and start defending again, I got three words for her - Tree of Souls.
I'm surprised you consider my last post a defense. But I suppose that's better than viewing a blunt description of how continuity glitches occur as authorial whining.
What about the Tree of Souls? |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 05 Apr 2011 14:41:28 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 14:59:22
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No-one caught the fact it was used twice, by two different authors - that's a huge problem, and I don't think the 'fix' offered by the GHotR really covered the issue (how do you re-plant a tree that can only be planted ONCE?)
Here's the funny part - I accused RB of not having read your novel, and he told me he had. Does that make it better, or worse?
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
I'm surprised you consider my last post a defense...
Not so much a defense of the editors, but rather defense of RAS (whom I totally respect and think is a terrific author - I just think he doesn't care all that much if he violates canon). Basically, he takes the attitude that the canon should be re-written to accommodate his books (and it HAS!), which is a rather unusual attitude for someone who writes in a shared world.
I have other issues with his FR writing, but they have nothing to do with the OT (and like I said, REPEATEDLY, I think he is one of the top-three FR authors - my complaints have ZERO to do with 'talent').
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 15:50:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
No-one caught the fact it was used twice, by two different authors - that's a huge problem, and I don't think the 'fix' offered by the GHotR really covered the issue (how do you re-plant a tree that can only be planted ONCE?)
Oh, yeah. That.
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 16:57:30
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
No-one caught the fact it was used twice, by two different authors - that's a huge problem, and I don't think the 'fix' offered by the GHotR really covered the issue (how do you re-plant a tree that can only be planted ONCE?)
Oh, yeah. That.
I'm going to respond to a lot of posts, and try to do it in a short one (a challenge for me).
First, Bob can write whatever he wants. Elaine can write whatever she wants. That's called being an "author." The editor, who is usually an agent of the publisher, can say "you can't write that part there because of X" if he chooses. If it gets by the editor, then the last review would be either the publishing house, or the copyright holder where applicable. If an agent of Wizards (or formerly TSR) reviewed the book and had no objection, the book gets published.
Without intending to insult anybody, I must say that I've always tried to imagine battles in my head, but never have I spent a moment on a character's feats, skills, or anything else. For lack of a better term, I consider characters "Chosen" when they reach a certain level of infamy. I don't care how Drizzt does what he does; I enjoy reading about it. And to Elaine's very valid point, how can an author possibly predict what changes will be brought into the Realms? The change from infravision to "dark vision" completely changes so many scenes and battles that I found it a ridiculous change.
With respect to Lolth, let's remember that Bob's first book was written pre-Internet, and (really) pre-word processor. If Bob accidentally spelled her name wrong, and nobody bothered to correct it (this is why there are copy checkers, by the way) then that's that. Regarding the "Tree of Life," I'd argue that's a pretty generic term, and that many societies are likely to have such a thing. You only run into conflict if the same group of citizenry or characters uses the term in wildly different ways.
Just my two copper's worth.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 17:23:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
No-one caught the fact it was used twice, by two different authors - that's a huge problem, and I don't think the 'fix' offered by the GHotR really covered the issue (how do you re-plant a tree that can only be planted ONCE?)
Oh, yeah. That.
I'm going to respond to a lot of posts, and try to do it in a short one (a challenge for me).
First, Bob can write whatever he wants. Elaine can write whatever she wants. That's called being an "author." The editor, who is usually an agent of the publisher, can say "you can't write that part there because of X" if he chooses. If it gets by the editor, then the last review would be either the publishing house, or the copyright holder where applicable. If an agent of Wizards (or formerly TSR) reviewed the book and had no objection, the book gets published.
Without intending to insult anybody, I must say that I've always tried to imagine battles in my head, but never have I spent a moment on a character's feats, skills, or anything else. For lack of a better term, I consider characters "Chosen" when they reach a certain level of infamy. I don't care how Drizzt does what he does; I enjoy reading about it. And to Elaine's very valid point, how can an author possibly predict what changes will be brought into the Realms? The change from infravision to "dark vision" completely changes so many scenes and battles that I found it a ridiculous change.
With respect to Lolth, let's remember that Bob's first book was written pre-Internet, and (really) pre-word processor. If Bob accidentally spelled her name wrong, and nobody bothered to correct it (this is why there are copy checkers, by the way) then that's that. Regarding the "Tree of Life," I'd argue that's a pretty generic term, and that many societies are likely to have such a thing. You only run into conflict if the same group of citizenry or characters uses the term in wildly different ways.
Just my two copper's worth.
Actually, Markustay has a point about the Tree of Souls. It's a distinctive elven artifact, and there was no question about the intention of the author who planted it.
For the record, I never actually SHOWED Lamruil planting the Tree of Souls. The novella that was supposed to tell that tale was never written (this was near the beginning of a long spate of health issues.) If memory serves, Lamruil's planting of the tree was described in a game product as a fait accompli (despite the fact that the story outline showed him deciding NOT to found the northen kingdom). Some wires got crossed, the tree got planted elsewhere by someone else. People starting talking about cuttings or acorns or what-have-you as a means of explaining multiple plantings. I gave up following it. |
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Editor's get a bum rap?
