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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 23:57:47
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| lol, even though if it's no longer the official history of Waterdeep, Mace? |
[/Ayrik] |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 00:48:49
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I think what I said was akin to telling Stan Lee he used to write comic books. Though I hope people read what I actually wrote slowly & in its entirity before passing judgement.
That's my last word on it though I understand you can hear from others about it on FB.
Back on topic...
I found Elaine's comments about there not being any such thing as 'constructive' criticism in fantasy fiction interesting. She has a lot of good points, I know I find myself constantly defending George Lucas for not writing the prequels fanboys wanted him to write. I found what she had to say very convincing.
I write a monthy fantasy novel review column for KODT. There, I certainly don't see myself as being constructive towards the author, but rather towards the reader. Of course, I also don't do negative reviews there, I see my job as pointing readers to good reads rather than warning them from bad ones.
This thread was about FR editors and writers and 'blame,' I'm starting to regret it though. Elaine has made me reconsider the value of discussing this stuff at all, beyond the natural curiousity of "what were they thinking here?" it doesn't seem to accomplish much. I don't want to dictate to Realms authors what to write, if I did I'd never be surprised.
On the otherhand, FR is a game world as well, and the novels have a huge impact on it. Gamers should be able to give constructive cricticism on game settings. I think broad advice in that sense can be helpful. Fans expressing a desire for fewer novels about gods, for example, or more novels about elves. I guess that is the flip side to Elaine's arguement. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 12:52:15
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| All in all, people voice their opinions (whether positive or negative) because they care. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 13:26:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I wonder if there's a tradition of more interventionist copy-editing in the States than in the UK; at least, most of the horror stories I've heard are American. (Though they can't be taken credulously; one far from first-time author last year was riled by my nerve in suggesting possible improvements he was free to reject.)
There may be some truth to that but not to the extent you could say this is true in X and this is true in Y. As always as you say yourself it depends on the publisher the author and the ditor and who holds who in higher regard.
Perhaps the easiest example to cite on how those relationships can change is JK Rowling and the Harry Potter books. When Scholastic first picked up Harry Potter, Scholastic decided to change the title of the first book from "Philosopher's Stone*" to "Sorcerors Stone" as they assumed this was more in keeping with the book, (who gives a damn if the legend is of something called a Philosopher's Stone.) This was done over the objections of Rowling and her editor.
8 years later, no one, NO ONE, would have dared suggest she change the title of Deathly Hallows....
* Bloomsbury, her UK publisher, had already published the story by this title.
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 15:02:05
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyerI write a monthy fantasy novel review column for KODT. There, I certainly don't see myself as being constructive towards the author, but rather towards the reader. Of course, I also don't do negative reviews there, I see my job as pointing readers to good reads rather than warning them from bad ones.
This thread was about FR editors and writers and 'blame,' I'm starting to regret it though. Elaine has made me reconsider the value of discussing this stuff at all, beyond the natural curiousity of "what were they thinking here?" it doesn't seem to accomplish much. I don't want to dictate to Realms authors what to write, if I did I'd never be surprised.
On the otherhand, FR is a game world as well, and the novels have a huge impact on it. Gamers should be able to give constructive cricticism on game settings. I think broad advice in that sense can be helpful. Fans expressing a desire for fewer novels about gods, for example, or more novels about elves. I guess that is the flip side to Elaine's arguement.
Good points all. I have a few follow-up observations.
I occasionally write reviews for Renaissance Magazine of books (history and historical fiction) and CDs (Renaissance, folk/roots or RenFaire-ish music). Like GMW, I review for the reader/listener, not the author/musician. To my way of thinking, this means giving the potential reader enough information to made a reasonably good decision whether to read or pass. This means giving a perspective beyond my personal opinion; for example, if a historical novel skims the surface of its subject's life and has a high ratio of summary to scenes, I'll suggest that the style is more likely to appeal to fans of Jean Plaidy than Philippa Gregory. If a book by an enthusiastic amateur historian has a few errors of fact but provides a lively introduction to the general reader, I'll say so, and I might also express the opinion that this book is unlikely to interest serious students of history. If something is entirely dreadful, I simply don't review it.
As a writer, I honestly don't mind the occasional "what were they thinking?" discussions. Admittedly, participating in these discussions can be a tightrope for authors, as it's likely someone will misinterpret any sort of explanation as "being defensive." But if you are truly NOT defensive, interesting discussions of setting lore and character development can result. And let's face it--there are times when a writer has to privately admit, "You know, they've got a point. What the ::expletive deleted:: WAS I thinking?" And sometimes, the question points out an error that's best acknowledged. "Oops, you're right--the characters eyes inexplicably changed from blue to brown during the course of the novel. In the future, I'll pick one color and stick with it." I get a little impatient with writers who go to ridiculous lengths to insist they didn't make a mistake. Or if mistakes occurred, it was somehow the editor's fault.
Ha! Managed to work in the thread topic!
I see a rather large difference between "constructive criticism" and expressing a preference. If someone says, "I'm not interested in novels about elves," I shrug, observe that the Realms has a wide variety of stories, and suggest something they might find more to their tastes. But there's not much you can do with a statement such as, "You should have made this character human and that one a half-orc because elves, in defiance of the laws of physics, both suck AND blow." I can't rewrite the book to change the characters' DNA.
When you're considering the Realms as a whole, knowing the preferences of the fan base is vitally important. If a lot of readers are asking for novels about dwarves, for example, it makes sense to accommodate them. That's useful information.
It is NOT useful, however, to hear that MarySue Moonmist's debut novel The Wealdath Vampire's Reluctant Bride would have been better if the bride in question was deflowered by the studly werewolf rather than the tall, dark and sardonic vampire. As I understand such things, it's a one-shot deal. Not much anyone can do about it now. So even the most civil, well-reasoned, "constructive" review explaining why Team Werewolf should have won that particular victory is simply not....constructive.
As I writer, I want to hear about reader's preferences. If it were not for email and message boards, I would have no idea that Elaith Craulnober, a secondary character, had caught readers' interest. Book sales alone don't give you that information. If someone were to say, "I'd love to read another story about Elaith, but I'd prefer to see him strutting his nefarious stuff than mooning over his lost princess," I'd file that away as important data.
That's said, I'm not always going to act on individual reader preferences, or for that matter, majority preferences. I'm never going to write a relentlessly grim novel set in the Realms even though the current zeitgeist leans toward "dark and gritty" fantasy. But knowing what readers' preferences and interests are can help the publisher and the individual writers make better, informed decisions.
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Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 03 Mar 2011 15:38:00 |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 15:47:08
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I should probably add that I'm not bothered by reader debates about werewolf vs vampire lovers. Talking about stories you enjoy with like-minded people is part of the fun. But as a writer, I try to keep out of such discussions, lest people feel obliged to be "constructive."
My views on "constructive criticism" go both ways: Once a book is finished, the author shouldn't expect readers to be helpful. It's time to get out of the way and let readers enjoy the story. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 18:11:28
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| Or not, as the case may be. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 22:49:11
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I wonder if there's a tradition of more interventionist copy-editing in the States than in the UK; at least, most of the horror stories I've heard are American. (Though they can't be taken credulously; one far from first-time author last year was riled by my nerve in suggesting possible improvements he was free to reject.)
There may be some truth to that but not to the extent you could say this is true in X and this is true in Y. As always as you say yourself it depends on the publisher the author and the ditor and who holds who in higher regard.
Perhaps the easiest example to cite on how those relationships can change is JK Rowling and the Harry Potter books. When Scholastic first picked up Harry Potter, Scholastic decided to change the title of the first book from "Philosopher's Stone*" to "Sorcerors Stone" as they assumed this was more in keeping with the book, (who gives a damn if the legend is of something called a Philosopher's Stone.) This was done over the objections of Rowling and her editor.
8 years later, no one, NO ONE, would have dared suggest she change the title of Deathly Hallows....
* Bloomsbury, her UK publisher, had already published the story by this title.
I was under the impression that the name was changed because it would work better in America than Philosopher's Stone. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 22:59:31
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
I should probably add that I'm not bothered by reader debates about werewolf vs vampire lovers. Talking about stories you enjoy with like-minded people is part of the fun. But as a writer, I try to keep out of such discussions, lest people feel obliged to be "constructive."
My views on "constructive criticism" go both ways: Once a book is finished, the author shouldn't expect readers to be helpful. It's time to get out of the way and let readers enjoy the story.
Obviously, criticism about an already-published book can't be overly helpful, with regards to that book. By using that term in regards to novels, we're not saying that reviewers/critics are helping the authors -- we're asking that their criticism be something that the author could use, if he or she chose to, with future endeavors.
If I say "Book X is horrificly bad! It's such an abomination I wouldn't use it as toilet paper! It's an insult to trees everywhere!" that's not something the author can use. If, on the other hand, I say "I didn't care for book Y because this character seems to change personality several times, and when event Q happened, this other thing should have happened, resulting in a rather noticable plot hole" then the author has info they can use -- it's something concrete and specific, and it's something they can keep in mind on future works.
So I guess I should have asked for concrete and specific criticism, rather than generalizations...  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 23:38:03
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Just for my two peneth !
I have nothing but respect for the Authors and Editors of the FR novels.
I have been lucky enough to have spoken with some of them on here.
Erik, Elaine, Richard, For all the imput and help and ideas you have helped with, I thank you.
Part of the reason I first joined this site was because of the authors questions / answers and chat.
Delz |
I'm Back! |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 00:16:18
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
I would point out, and this is a coincidence, it was written months ago, that I actually reviewed Elaine's Evermeet in Knights of the Dinner Table #171 http://www.kenzerco.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_23_24&products_id=743 (January 2011).
I fixed the url, sorry! |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 00:27:16
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| Thanks for the URL (and the review). I can't read it, however, since I'm not a KOTDT subscriber. Alas and ::sadface:: |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 22:50:13
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| It's only natural for people to criticise a book if they don't like it. On the other hand I don't see any authors complaining about too much praise for there work. Like it or not, when we buy your novels and they disappoint, you will come under a bit of flack. Take it on the chin, ignore it or try to learn from it but you will never stop it. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 23:41:49
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Arcanus, maybe I missed something, but I didn't see any writer in this thread posting that readers shouldn't express their opinions. I believe I did see people suggesting that there are courteous and discourteous ways to do that, and I think most people would agree that's true of virtually any situation involving communication. Of course, if a guy finds it more satisfying to be discourteous, that's what he'll do. That's his right, and even if it weren't, his target has no practical way of stopping him.
What writers can do, if they find interacting with readers has become unpleasant, is stop doing it, either on a particular website or in general. So, if the writers' presence is something the readers value, there's a practical reason not to slap us around TOO much. If you don't value it, then fire away, I guess. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 00:01:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Arcanus, maybe I missed something, but I didn't see any writer in this thread posting that readers shouldn't express their opinions. I believe I did see people suggesting that there are courteous and discourteous ways to do that, and I think most people would agree that's true of virtually any situation involving communication. Of course, if a guy finds it more satisfying to be discourteous, that's what he'll do. That's his right, and even if it weren't, his target has no practical way of stopping him.
What writers can do, if they find interacting with readers has become unpleasant, is stop doing it, either on a particular website or in general. So, if the writers' presence is something the readers value, there's a practical reason not to slap us around TOO much. If you don't value it, then fire away, I guess.
I hope I haven't slapped any author around here. I for one value authors contributions to this forum.
As for constructive criticism, well only you guys can tell us if it helps or not. I'm guessing that's why you guys stick around, to get feedback.
Here's some feedback for you Richard- I'm loving book two of the haunted lands! |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 00:12:57
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Ultimately, a review is about the reader's experience with a book. The author is usually a distant consideration--a concept the reviewer thinks of in abstract terms, if at all.
Ideally, there would be a perfect balance: readers expressing their opinions and observations in civil fashion, writers never taking umbrage where no insult was intended. That would be difficult to achieve under any circumstances, but online communication is particularly challenging. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 05:51:32
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Thanks, Arcanus. I'm glad you're enjoying it.
Just to clarify, I wasn't implying that anyone at Candlekeep has been rude or unfair to me. That hasn't been my experience at all. I was just speaking hypothetically. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 16:26:04
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Ultimately, a review is about the reader's experience with a book. The author is usually a distant consideration--a concept the reviewer thinks of in abstract terms, if at all.
Many buy books based purely on the author. Indeed it is the reason for many of my purchases. I used to be a huge R A Salvatore fan, pre ordering all of his books. Now I find his style a little stale and a bit same ol' same ol'.
A review of a book is also a review of a writers style and ability,not only about the story. That is somewhat personal. |
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Mark S
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 02:18:01
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
What do we think? Do FR editors have far too much power historically? Should we be blaming the editors more vorciferously for things we don't like?
I'm back and forth on this myself, so I'm really curious what others think.
Depends on what you mean. Editors working on shared world lines, be it FR or STAR WARS or HALO, have to do more than your average fiction editor. Your average fiction editor’s main concerns is strengthening the story. The shared world editor has that, but her or she also to worry about continuity concerns.
So back when I was editing WotC books, my authors always got 2 sections of comments: continuity and story.
If an author makes a continuity error, he or she has to fix it. Period. That’s just what you have to do when you’re writing in shared world. And yes, there were certainly times I had to make an author change something that violated continuity, even though I liked the author’s version far better than the “official” version. It happens. Some of the notes I had to send to Paul Kidd broke my heart.
Story concerns are another matter. There’s way too many to list here. But just as a few examples: Character A’s motivation is weak in Chapter 4. Dialogue here is wordy. Chapter 5 and Chapter 7 are repetitive; pick one and cut the other. Freddie Mercury cannot be a greater god—or even a lesser god.
If you’re a writer and you can’t take criticism, you’re in the wrong field. Probably 95% of the authors I worked with were total pros about this. They knew that the editor is the first reader, and if the editor says something isn’t working, the something isn’t working.
As an editor, there were times I was clueless as to what suggestion to offer, but I knew that a story element wasn’t working. In cases like that, you express your concerns to the author. Very often (more often than not, in fact), the author knows just what to do, and the solution is magic. Other times, you brainstorm the idea.
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Mark S
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 02:30:03
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
But a traffic cop doesn't have to dictate everything. FR novels have produced some real gems but all in all very, very few of the FR novels have risen above the catagory of cheap setting fiction. Modern Dime novels. I think FR could have produces some stories that are true literature, if the editors (or whoever wasactually in control) would give the writers more freedom while carefully holding the continuity whip over thier heads. :)
Folks, don't take offence at that. The fact is that very, very few of ANY genre of novel rises about cheap setting fiction. "True literature" (and I take that to mean books so wonderful that's I'd bet hard cash people are still going to be reading them in a hundred years) is just plain rare, no matter the genre.
But the lack of "true literature" in FR or any genre certainly isn't the fault of the editors. Or the writers. In fact, I'm not sure "fault" is the best way to think of it in the first place.
Books of true magic I'm not sure anyone can explain. Take TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD. One of the best books ever written in the English language. Harper Lee's first book, and her last. It was a moment of magic that I'm not sure anyone can explain.
DUNE is a classic. Everything else Herbert ever wrote was a snore.
So I'm not sure "fault" is the best way to look at it. Writing true literature is about as easy as capturing lightning in a bottle. Sometimes it just happens.
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 02:47:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark S
Folks, don't take offence at that. The fact is that very, very few of ANY genre of novel rises about cheap setting fiction. "True literature" (and I take that to mean books so wonderful that's I'd bet hard cash people are still going to be reading them in a hundred years) is just plain rare, no matter the genre.
But the lack of "true literature" in FR or any genre certainly isn't the fault of the editors. Or the writers. In fact, I'm not sure "fault" is the best way to think of it in the first place.
Thank you, I agree. And you are probably right, 'fault' is perhaps the wrong way to look at it.
I never actually expected so many authors to reply to this thread, I was hoping to get other fans to think about things, to stop reflexively reaching for 'editors did it' as a defense when people complained about an FR book. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 01:29:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I was under the impression that the name was changed because it would work better in America than Philosopher's Stone.
Sorry Wooly, the forum was misbehaving when I first tried to reply and then I forgot.
Basically you're right, as thats essentially just another way of phrasing my point. I understand it was done against her wishes but I don't believe she protested all that loudly about it.
I think it illustrates nicely the point of how an author's status can have a big impact on their influence with publishers. Scholastic wouldn't have made the change if Joanne Rowling had objected to it for the latter books. But it didn't have such a compunction for the earlier ones when she was largely unknown!
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 23:39:47
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"Editor's get a bum rap?"
When I read that, I think of an editor wearing a baby's diaper or something... (A bum wrap: get it?)
Then there's always Sir Mix-A-Lots's ode to the derriere... (Now that's an actual bum rap.)
Anyhoo...
There's an old story of how Salvatore's panther character Guenhwyvar changed gender in the early stories because of editorial interference. Guen got her name from a variation on Lady Guinevere of Arthurian legend. Supposedly the cat was always meant to be female.
But in "The Icewind Dale Trilogy", she was made male. RAS says that was an editor's doing.
And yet, in the gaming lorebook The Savage Frontier, Guen is referred to as a "she". Apparently one editor did not know what the other editor was doing.
When RAS started dropping "The Dark Elf Trilogy" books on readers, Guen was changed to a neutral "it" or "the panther". Supposedly, the editor at this time did not feel that it was appropriate for an astral projection animal to have a gender at all, and so, Guen was neutered.
Nevertheless, Guen is somehow referred to as a "she" in the novel Sojourn, when young Catti-brie meets her for the first time. Editors, be durned! 
[EDIT: Changed internal source reference from Hall of Heroes to The Savage Frontier--my mistake.] |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 31 Mar 2011 23:26:34 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 01:38:55
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I'm lucky to have great editors. I'm always steered to the right path. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 02:55:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark S
DUNE is a classic. Everything else Herbert ever wrote was a snore.
I do suppose you could call it a classic, however rates lower then Tarzan or Barsoom series IMO. An interesting read all of them. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 08:24:32
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The introduction I wrote for Worlds of Their Own, an anthology I put together of creator-owned stories by writers known for their shared world work, gets into this topic in more detail, but let me add this to the discussion:
Editors certainly deserve some blame when projects go wrong, though the blame when shared world projects go off the tracks quite often belongs just as much at the feet of the company's senior managers and lawyers, the people who set the editorial policies, the schedules, and the contract terms. There's no fundamental reason, to take one small example, why authors cannot be involved more actively in all stages of a book's edit. But Realms authors have rarely ever been shown their books with all changes--editing, copyediting, proofing--in place and then given the chance to question or correct those changes. Schedules are the main justification, but the publisher sets the schedules. It doesn't have to be that way. I'm editing a shared world book right now for White Wolf, Strangeness in the Proportion, and the author has reviewed every step of the process and has approved every change that's been made. He's signing off on the final version of the manuscript the same way I have writers sign off on creator-owned projects. In instances where he's objected to changes, we've found middle ground that satisfies him and me and the publisher.
The problems are more fundamental than than just schedule, though. The owners of shared worlds regularly go through phases where the staff or bosses feel the need to flex their muscles and make it clear just who owns the intellectual property. That's been a problem with the Realms right up to the present day.
Yes, authors should know what they're getting into when they write in a shared world, but shared world publishers--and editors--could do a lot more to make these projects more creatively sound. If shared worlds have a higher proportion of mediocre books than the genre as a whole, and they do, it's less the fault of the writers or editors than it is the conditions under which the books are created. That's been true for more than a century. The Realms authorial/editorial process suffers from the same inherent problems that plagued the precursors of the modern shared world: the dime novels and the series books churned out by the Stratemeyer Syndicate and their rivals.
Addendum: Given the furor caused by the comments in this thread, let me be clear that I think all novels in any series should be judged on their individual merits, and some shared worlds considered as a series are of a higher average quality than others--because especially talented writers have done work in the worlds and the publishers/IP owners have either purposefully or inadvertently created conditions under which that work can shine. Using "shared world" or "pulp" or any other format or genre as if it were equivalent to a critical class is making a fundamental error. The creative conditions surrounding a work can impact that work's quality. They do not determine it definitively.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
Edited by - JamesLowder on 17 Mar 2011 08:50:06 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 15:11:10
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James's post for the win, particularly the following:
quote:
Originally posted by JamesLowder
Addendum: Given the furor caused by the comments in this thread, let me be clear that I think all novels in any series should be judged on their individual merits, and some shared worlds considered as a series are of a higher average quality than others--because especially talented writers have done work in the worlds and the publishers/IP owners have either purposefully or inadvertently created conditions under which that work can shine. Using "shared world" or "pulp" or any other format or genre as if it were equivalent to a critical class is making a fundamental error. The creative conditions surrounding a work can impact that work's quality. They do not determine it definitively.
Couldn't have said it better. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lily M Green
Learned Scribe
Australia
115 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 21:55:56
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I'm not sure I have a great deal to add to this scroll but... given that some of its content is concerned with considering the literary merits of the genre / setting I just wanted to share with you this recent article from The Guardian website (posted on International Women's Day) regarding strong female characters, or the blogger's perceived lack thereof, in literary fiction. http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksblog/2011/mar/08/daring-women-s-heroines
Feel free to draw your own conclusions regarding the article itself, but I really wanted to draw your attention to was the comments, which time after time tell the blogger that if what she's looking for in fiction are strong female (feminine) characters then she need look no further than the Sci-Fi and fantasy genres to find them by the bucketload, and FR Fiction is no exception to this.
(For what it's worth one of my favourite comments was about Jane Eyre, who the blogger omitted to her eternal shame as far as I am concerned).
Anyway, now that I've derailed this slightly, I've found that the 'editorial quirks' have worked in my favour. I'm currently reading an FR trilogy that historically seems to have not been very well received. (This view is not one limited to CK I hasten to add) I stumbled on the stories looking for something I thought entirely unrelated and I've found that I can make use of the a number of the plot ideas in them that ultimately went nowhere or were left unresolved* (I'm guessing) because of editorial policy? I say this because I can't imagine an author would disregard their own continuity in a published work?
*Again, decide for yourself if there is a difference between those two statements ;)
ETA: & I should add a 'thanks' to the authors & editors who've added their personal experiences here. It does help to hear things from the other side of the fence.
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.
A Dark Alliance - Beyond Baldur's Gate |
Edited by - Lily M Green on 17 Mar 2011 22:07:04 |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 22:08:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Lily M GreenI've found that I can make use of the a number of the plot ideas in them that ultimately went nowhere or were left unresolved (I'm guessing) because of editorial policy?
It's pretty much impossible to guess the specific reason why something is left unresolved in a shared world book, since the behind-the-scenes issues can be quite complicated. Could be bad writing, bad editing, bad corporate policy. The only people who know with any certainty are the ones who were involved in the project firsthand, and sometimes even their versions can differ wildly, particularly on books where things went really wrong. Or, as JFK put it after the Bay of Pigs disaster: "Victory has a thousand fathers, but defeat is an orphan."
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
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Editor's get a bum rap?
