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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Feb 2011 : 15:07:26
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Hi Scribes, one of my players asked me tonight if they could play an Avariel / sea elf cross breed....after sorting out a back story i was left wondering using 3.5 rules...what would the latent & active abilities of such a union be????
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Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2011 : 16:04:27
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| Elven subraces breeding amongst each other don't mix, they breed true. The child of a sun elf and a moon elf is either a sun elf or a moon elf, not a sun/moon half-breed. The same would be true of a pairing between a sea elf and an avariel: the children would either be full sea elves, or full avariel, and each sibling would have a 50/50 chance of being either. If the family was large, you'd almost certainly have some "sky children" and some "sea children." What you absolutely would not have are mixes. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2011 : 16:58:08
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| What Hoondatha said. But if you really wanted to, using 3.5 rules, probably gills and wings, ability to fly AND swim - definately would require a steep Level Adjustment (+4 at minimum IMO). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2011 : 17:09:08
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Flying Fish?
Prince Namor?
In canon, Elves do not 'crossbreed' - they breed true, to either one parent or the other. Since you are the DM, that means absolutely NOTHING, because you have the final word.
Canonically Elves have a certain innate ability to adapt to their environment, even going to the extremes (in the case of surface elves becoming Sea Elves - all it takes is the willpower... and maybe a prayer). The Srinshee is an example of an Elf being able to appear like any sub-race (although she is a VERY special case). Queen Amlaruil's daughter (Ilyrana) appears more Fey then Elven.
What does that mean? Well, to me, it means Elves can alter their appearance, and even their physical bodies (in the case of Avariel & Lythari), but do not do so CASUALLY, and would never do so for a deception. They only do so in the case of dire need (which is what I think happened with the Avriels - they were fighting dragons). I also think prayers - of the "deep-rooted 'true intentions' and unwavering Faith" variety - to the Seldarine is the activating force behind these changes (hence why they are not done lightly, nor with malice).
The Drow, on the other hand, I think 'expended' (or rather, Lolth did with her 'blessing') this innate ability in one swoop when they went from being Dhaerow (traitorous elves) to 'Drow' (a very specific subtype BUILT for survival in the Underdark). Note that there were always groups of Elves that lived 'below ground' - the Shadow Elves (Schattenalfen), Rockseer, and Maviddi are but a few examples - but the Drow were somethng completely new and different; their actual 'Elven DNA' was altered (by some combination of Lolth and Faezress). However, even in their case it is possible (in accordance with the events leading into 4e) that the Drow can still 'change back' into dark green {Sylvan} Elves (which I take as further proof of their inherent 'mutable' nature).
I feel this is a 'throwback ability' to when they were part of the Fey, and that Faerie heritage still allows these changes to occur (perhaps Corellon and the other Seldarine temporarily infuse the Elf with a bit of 'fey stuff' to empower their latent ability).
Anyhow, back to the topic: Taking into account all of what I said above, I think an elf gets to decide what it wants to be, in ways most other races can only dream of. What if your Elf were born an Avariel, but then prayed to Deep Sashelas to "be able to visit the realms of his mother" - you just may end up with something that looks a lot like Prince Namor (although I still have to wonder at how those tiny wings carry him aloft).
I think the little wings on the ankles are cute (keep those), but he should also have his wings modified in such a way as to be usable in both mediums - something like The Black Falcon. Also, the feathers would be similar to that of a duck's, being able to shed water (ducks are actually triphibians!)
Hope that helps. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Feb 2011 20:29:51 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2011 : 17:11:30
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| I wonder if that would taste more like fried chicken or fried fish. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2011 : 14:44:04
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| well I guess since we've never followed the genetically impossible route (have a geneticist in the group), i guess we'll end up with an elf with wings at the beach fighting for the fries.....with the other seagulls..... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2011 : 14:46:07
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| well I guess since we've never followed the genetically impossible route (have a geneticist in the group), i guess we'll end up with an elf with wings at the beach fighting for the fries.....with the other seagulls..... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2011 : 14:57:07
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| That could be amusing... those seagulls are vicious. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2011 : 05:11:19
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For Dwarves, they breed true to the dwarven side, just a little taller.
that's in regards to human crossbreeding - I have no idea what a Dwelf might turn out like, and the others aren't ever even covered in canon (AFAIK).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2011 : 05:16:40
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| Agreed. I don't think I've ever read anything definitive about cross-breeding between the subraces of dwarves, gnomes, or halflings. On the other hand, none of the subraces of the other three are as big a deal as the elves. Most dwarves are shield dwarves, most gnomes are rock gnomes, and at least personally, I've never been able to keep any of the halfling subraces separate in my mind. I pretty much just label them all "halfling" and go from there. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2011 : 05:28:01
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| I remember seeing a rather well done piece on deviantArt of a dwarf/orc hybrid. Don't think I've ever seen a dwarf/elf, though. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2011 : 10:26:58
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| early Athas had some interesting ideas on cross breeds, half-dwarves, half-giants, half-elves, elflings...... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2011 : 10:28:55
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| early Athas had some interesting ideas on cross breeds, half-dwarves, half-giants, half-elves, elflings...... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2011 : 11:21:21
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| Dwelves could look like the pyreen. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 05:43:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For Dwarves, they breed true to the dwarven side, just a little taller.
that's in regards to human crossbreeding - I have no idea what a Dwelf might turn out like, and the others aren't ever even covered in canon (AFAIK).
Er, no, you guys misunderstood- I meant that if two dwarf sub-races bred (or halfling, or gnome), do they breed to one side or the other like elves do? Shield/Gold dwarf, for example- which do you get? Or do they actually follow RW genetic rules? I'm wondering because I've never seen any lore on what happens when sub-races cross other than elves. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 11:45:23
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Elven subraces have entirely non-genetic origins. Elven subraces always breed "true", that is, they fully assume the subrace of only one parent.
Yet elves can interbreed with humans to produce half-elves; elven genes are apparently recessive, half-elves can breed with elves or half-elves (always producing half-elves, never resulting in "pure" elves) or with humans (to produce humans; the elven blood becomes too diluted to carry any significance). The offspring of two half-elves can mix features from the elven subraces of both parents, even if they differ.
Dwarves can also interbreed with humans, though somewhat the reverse of half-elves since dwarven genetics are dominant and half-dwarves will always breed (with dwarves or half-dwarves) into "true" dwarves or (with humans) into half-dwarves; the dwarven blood cannot be diluted, regardless of how many human ancestors intervene. Dwarves simply do not ever breed outside their own dwarven subrace; though the greater variety of subraces (along with some attempt to explain how they've each adapted to their peculiar environment) suggests that such exbreeding has happened before. "Dwelf" halfbreeds are briefly mentioned in PHBR8, FR0, and Fall of Myth Drannor; it's basically stated that they are so exceedingly rare as to be virtually unheard of, only a rare few (if any) such individuals have ever existed, and their exact racial capacities are not known.
Humans can in fact breed with pretty much any demihuman or humanoid; as well as many monsters, dragons, giants, shapechangers, even bizarre creatures such as fiends, celestials, and elemental djinn. The genetics appear to vary considerably; dragonborn and giantkin genetic influences appear roughly equal to human baseline, cambions dilute into tieflings, while dryad/sylph/nymph sorts of creatures seduce human males to procreate more of their unhuman kind.
These facts, taken as a set, are contradictory under the "RW genetic rules" we understand, ergo our RW genetic rules simply do not seem to apply in any meaningful manner within D&D or the Realms. It might be that different bloodlines (fey, giant, goblin, orc, dragon, etc) have entirely different genetic rulesets. Additional complications arise from "magical bloodlines" such as werebeasts and even vampires/dhampirs.
Short answer: there are some detailed but contradictory rules for elf breeding, few for dwarf breeding, and hardly any at all for other breeds. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 28 Feb 2011 11:54:05 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 17:25:52
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| So basically, no one knows what a Strongheart/Lightfoot halfling cross would be, right? A Rock/Deep gnome cross? Or Arctic/Jungle dwarf? This was what I was looking for. Where did you see that dwarves never "breed" outside their own sub-race? and has there ever been any ruling on what would result if they did? I know about the ruling for elves, (which I ignore in my HB world- seems silly to me, but to each their own...) and half-elves, too. I'm aware that there has been AT LEAST one "dwelf". (Myth Drannor was named for him, in fact.) But I'm, wondering about other odd cross-sub-race mixes. Two half-dragon breeds? (say, gold and silver, for example.) I know that full-blood dragons can mix- there was an article in (of course) Dragon on that topic years ago (# 250-ish, IIRC) and it created some interesting possibilities, like whites with a red's breath weapon, or a blue that has the body shape of a black or silver, etc. so that makes me wonder if half-dragons could also inter-mix types. Could be fun!! (And so could a deep gnome/sea elf mix, come to think of it....) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 18:09:44
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For the sake of argument, all sub-races should be a mixture of their parents, including cross-racial pairings (as is the case of Half-Elves and Half-Orcs). However, because D&D is a game, and players almost always want to play something 'outside the box' (like an Avariel/Sea Elf), its built into the rules that races 'breed true' to simplify matters. Its a rather inelegant - but useful - solution. I personally do not use the 'breed true' rule, and you shouldn't either if it bothers you. It just makes more work for the DM when their player wants run a Hill Giant/Gnome crossbreed.
Hey! Maybe that's where humans come from! 
And my first sentence made me wonder now about a half/half, or an Erk, or whatever you'd call an Orc/Elf offspring. It had to have happened at some point. If human children are prone to do exactly what their parents tell them not to, then I would imagine that happens amongst Elves as well. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Feb 2011 18:10:19 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 20:31:42
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Alystra, my information about elves and dwarves comes from 1E and 2E sources: PHBR8, FR11, various DMGs and PHBs. It's partly obsolete within 3.xE and somewhat inapplicable within 4E.
The OP's question is about an avariel/aquatic crossbreed.
The backstory would indeed need to be sorted out, since birds and fishies don't even live in the same worlds, even when they're both elves.
Is your player just attempting to gain some advantages from both elven strains (waterbreathing and flight)? Scales make poor wings, feathers make poor waterproofing, merging gills and aerodynamics is going to require tradeoffs. Note that half-celestial and half-fiend (cambion) sorts typically do not have wings, or only have vestigial semi-useless wings ... so an half-avariel might not either, assuming these comparisons are at all meaningful.
I wouldn't personally allow such a pairing; it's simply too ridiculous and unlikely. But pretending that it was acceptable I would judge the offspring of such a union to be the same flavour elf as one of the parents, not a mix. Your opinions might differ from mine. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Avariel & Sea Elves
