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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Feb 2011 : 22:06:51
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Ok, so I am writinv a Drow story that is canon and I want everyone's opinions, criticism, helpful ideas, and infoming me if I am off canon.
So this is the basic outline of the story:
The third House of Menzoberranzzan, House Zanzifae, secretly worships Shar, which it is against the law of Menzoberranzzan to worship any other deity than Lolth, and they want to make their own city in the Underdark or take control of Menzoberranzzan. The main characters are:
Quarfein (kw-are-fayn) Zanzifae; wizard and secondboy of his house
Kilamia Zanifae (kee-lahm-ee-uh) Zanzifae; cleric of Shar (disguised as one of Lolth's clerics), she is visited by Shar in her dreams and informs the House of Shar's comandments
Matron Xilea (zI-lee-uh) Zanzifae-Matron of House Zanzifae, cleric of Shar, and sorceress
Phaural (faux-rol) Baenre; ranger of House Baenre lover of Quarfein, eventual cleric of Shar (or may not a cleric, I don't know yet).
Please tell me what you think and keep me canon wise!!
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2011 : 22:12:37
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| I forgot to add that the Drow of House Zanzifae are kind and loving to their family members. Though have to treat as normally when they have visitors or are out in Menzo, they still care about one another. Matron Xilea loves all of her childer, five gfemales and four males. Plus they have made at least two allies with one middle House and one low House. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2011 : 22:15:18
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You mean 'sticks to canon', correct?
Shar is an odd choice, considering the plethora of alternate Drow deities (that are also equally unexceptable in a Lolth-run city). Not that her nature/portfolio doesn't suit them almost perfectly.
I did something along these lines - my Maztican Drow worship Tiamet.
Anyhow, there is a Heresy concerning Lolth and Shar being the same person - I don't know where it's located (it was discussed on the WotC boards), but IIRC it is canon (the heresy itself, not the concept!) You might want to use that (which would have the whole thing make a little more sense -your heretics could think they are merely following another aspect of Lolth. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2011 23:13:12 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2011 : 22:23:52
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| Hmmm.... I don't know. I wanted them to hate Lolth and believe that their daughter being a conduit of sorts for the Night Mistress as a blessing. Oh and guess what House Zanzifae's colours are.........purple and black!!!!! XD I thought that was quite clever of myself. Lol |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2011 : 23:20:46
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NICE 
Well, you could have them worshiping Shar and hating Lolth, only to find out at some point (by secretive heretics hiding within the heretics?) that Lotlh and Shar are one and the same.
Like I said, we do not know if Lolth and Shar are really the same - that is just a heresy. However, at least one other heresy has 'come true' by the end of 3e (the one concerning Lathander and Aumanator). It wouldn't really make a whole lot of sense if Lolth were really Shar (assuming Shar predates Lolth), in regards to both known FR lore (Lolth only became 'aware' of Toril fairly late, after Elves had migrated there from the Feywild), and what we know of the 'greater D&D universe'.
Also, then we would have the problem of 'the children' (although Mask being Vhaeraun makes a LOT of sense, actually...)  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2011 23:21:09 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 00:19:06
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Shar can't also be Lolth, because Lolth is clearly an interloper deity.
This may be useful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menzoberranzan
Shar's also an odd choice, considering that you want this drow family to be loving toward another. Why not have them secretly worship Eilistraee, and just make the whole thing about her death into a "hah, I'm back!" type of thing.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 22 Feb 2011 00:27:00 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 00:21:42
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Unless Shar secretly slew and replaced Lolth during the latter's Silence...  |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 00:27:03
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| Hrm. Interesting. I'm also working on a drow based story that involves a certain Archdevil-turned-God's chosen converting drow en masse away from Lolth in a plan to weaken her and leave her vulnerable. However, I'm also a fan of the idea that Asmodeus and Shar were/are allies. If there's anything to the connection, that could complicate matters. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4705 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 00:29:17
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Well kind and loving, almost certainly calls for Eliistraee.
Shar is as evil as Lolth is. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 00:29:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Unless Shar secretly slew and replaced Lolth during the latter's Silence...
Eilistraee would've noticed. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 00:41:04
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| Yea, Shar is definitely a weird choice for a loving family, considering one of her commandments is "Love is a lie, only hate endures." |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4705 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 00:45:12
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Going back to the first post.
A third house to setting up a new city. This should not be a problem.
The house has enough power to explore the underark. Thus find a location, then slowly build defenses and move house members to it.
If done well, what was the third house, would depart with rest of house to become first house of new city.
The biggest problem is finding a location safe enough, defenses or location to not be exposed to raids from Menzoberranzzan or other races or cities. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 00:48:39
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| Well, i n her 4e description and comandments list, she says nothig about love so I'm sticking with that. She doesn't e ven seem evil , all she says is place your trust in her, never forget a slight and seek revenge, and the darkness is your friend. Plenty o room for lve there :D And I HATE how sexist Eillistraee is. No better than Lolth. Shar is "evil" and Lolth is chaotic evil. Big difference. Just sayin. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 00:54:01
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Evil, neutral/lawful evil that is, can be worse than chaotic evil at times. Lolth places chaos before evil. There's a working theory that she gives favor to Drizzt because he leaves chaos in his wake, even though he is an agent of good.
Shar is plan selfish evil. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 01:00:37
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| Shar just seems like a revenge deity to me. House Zanzifae is known as "The Vengeful House". It is noted that they never forget a slight, no matter how small, and exact it in kind. In 4e, evil isn't like Mwahaa!!!!! Make the world suffer evil. They just tend to have darker ends like being cruel and merciless to anyone who dares attack them. House Zanzifae,though, is largely neutral/unaligned. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 01:10:27
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All I'm saying is there is considerably more to Shar than what's in the 4e guides; they're there for a rough outline for quick, easy play, as one of the biggest complaints about the realms was it had gotten too indepth to easily get into.
That doesn't instantly invalidate the stuff that was written before and left out. And if you want to stick as close to canon as possible I'd suggest reading up on the history of Shar to get a better grasp of her personality and dogma.
You don't have to, mind. You can just stick to the little bit in the guide. Nothing wrong with that. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 01:12:38
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| Something to keep in mind, Shar is the goddess of loss and seeks entropy and the total destruction of life. It may not detail everything that she has done in the sourcebook, but she was narrowly prevented from unleashing the Shadowstorm (see Paul Kemp's book of the same name) which would have destroyed Faerun completely and left it a lifeless husk. With the exception of the Shadowvar priests in Netheril, most of her devoted servants have been insane. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 01:15:43
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| And yea, there's that. Which reminds me, need to put up omnicidal maniac on her entry on the FR character sheet over on TV tropes. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 01:27:01
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| Hmm, well any other deities in mind that aren't Eillistraee? I haye how she's just as sexist as Lolth. NO lawful goods *gags*. One of the reasons I chose Shar is that she'sthe goddess od darkness. My Drow in the story still want to live in the Underdark, so it kind of clicked with me. Plus I love the shadow weave :D I've decided to change House Zanzifae's colours to purpe and SILVER now. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 01:33:14
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It occurs to me that you could go against canon (why not, really?) and go back to Shar's original presentation in the 1st Edition. Many people really dislike the recent canon lore on Shar, anyway.
Back in 1E, she was the goddess of secrets, darkness, bitterness, and loss. Promoting revenge would be easy to imagine, especially if the family had suffered recent losses. Back then, Shar didn't have the "destroy all life!" and the push toward entropy either, although she hated Selune of course. Love would still be a huge stretch.
Alternatively, Eilistraee hated Lolth of course, and was known to have secretly infiltrated spies in Lolth's priesthood. Love is part of what Eilistraee's all about, and yet at the same time she's still thoroughly a drow goddess who seriously kicks ass. Revenge would be fine, especially against the evil priestesses of Lolth or even the worshippers of Ghaunadaur. If you set the story during the time right after she killed Vhaeraun (her brother), then she becomes the "Masked Lady" and pulls in all of the Vhaeraunite priests to worship her as well (and incorporates masks, shadowy revenge, etc). Even with that, acceptance, forgiveness, love, all that good stuff remains a major focus of Eilistraee as the Masked Lady. The sexism of the earlier Eilistraee is also tempered by this. And you could have her survive and remain a goddess.
Who needs canon?  |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 22 Feb 2011 01:36:17 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 01:40:38
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Alternatively you could take a cue from Mark and go with Tiamat. Not a bad choice; focuses on the overthrowing of the gods, which would include Lolth and mesh well with their hate for her, the gathering of wealth and magic, which can tie into them wanting to make their own city.
She's also fairly neutral on the whole, family thing. I mean, yea, she hates(and wants to sleep with) her brother, but several of her draconic followers are devoted parents. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 01:51:47
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Kiaransalee, the Vengeful Banshee. Drow Goddess of Disproportionate Retribution. Answer any slight a thousandfold...
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Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Edited by - Fellfire on 22 Feb 2011 02:12:45 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 02:20:34
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Gods seek worship, plain and simple, because they need it to empower themselves (only a part of which is provided by their portfolio).
That means that Shar WILL let her followers believe whatever the hell they want about her, so long as she continues to get 'the juice' from them. In fact, most of her faithful probably have no idea her ultimate end-goal is to see them all dead.
Gods lie, its a canonical fact, in order to further their portfolios. Even the good ones do it. Mystra's priests espouse the notion that she is the goddess of ALL magic (an untruth), and Oghma's church allows certain (harmful) knowledge to remain hidden, despite their tenets against such a thing.
Thanks to Quale's suggestion in another thread, I've been reading through some of the old-school D&D cosmology lore, and interestig to see how it evolved into its current form, and you can also see where Ed drew from for some his home campaign (like 'the Watching Gods'). Deities are little more then uber-powerful immortals who have learned a trick or two about the inner workings of the cosmos.
Anyhow, what that means is that mortals rarely know the truth of such matters, not just because "the Gods lie", but also because the powers-that-be don't know everything themselves (and don't care to admit that).
As to how this pertains to the OT - I think Wooly had a brilliant suggestion as to how all of this could be (I never thought about Lolth's silence, and her later emergence as a Greater deity - intriguing line of reasoning). I always thought Mask should be an alias of Vhaeraun... perhaps he was replaced himself, LONG ago.
Maybe that's the right of it after all (thinking on that alternate Realms thread someone just resurrected) - whenever two similar powers enter the same sphere, they either split their portfolios so there is no overlap (which may have happened with Tyr), or more commonly, enter into conflict (that could last centuries and involve mortal churches) until one absorbs the other.
Shar 'ate' Ibrandul during the ToT (where the Black Chronology began, BTW), and a few other ebil underdark powers were killed with the advent of the spellplague (the Dwarves), so if we take this as a sign that Shar wanted complete control of all of Toril's 'dark places', then it actually makes perfect sense for her to go after Lolth as well; she was the 'big gun' of Faerûn's Underdark deities.
So let your Zanzifae worship Shar while the others remain true to 'Lolth', but somewhere in the darkness there is laughter behind their backs. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Feb 2011 02:22:22 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 02:36:29
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| You could also have them venerate one of the elven deities.... After all, Lloth and her offspring where part of the elven pantheon at one time since she was one of Corellon's wives and he is father of her offspring.... |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 02:44:08
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| I am in total mental conflict right.....I'm actualyy gerting a headache XC. Maybe I could ask Ed? I want a dark deity but one who accepts love and believes in loyalty and workng sorking together. Shar just kinda seemed that way. Maybe Ed could alter her a bit? (like that'll ever happen) If anyone can think of any evil/unaligned/good deities that are dark and non sexist and is canonical, please me know. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 03:31:53
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For the record, Eilistraee is not as "sexist" as many think. Even before she killed Vaerhaun, she was starting to let males enter her clergy, and promoting equality between the sexes. (See the Demihuman Deities book from 2nd ed for some lore on this.) She also has a ritual for males called the Changedance, which turns them female for a short time. (Usually just for a ritual so they can join fully, or sometimes for several months to better understand the female perspective.) It would be easy to use a reverse of this for females as well, so that both sexes can better understand the other. Perhaps they might even use some of those old Girdles of Gender Reversal that have been floating around in D&D for decades now, and put them to good use. As the Masked Lady, she makes a great foil to Lolth, and the idea of love and equality fits right in with her dogma- much more so than Shar's. Perhaps, you could use he gender-bending as a way of turning drow away from Lolth, showing that she is much more willing to accept ALL drow in her church, which would also give many males something to strive fore.
The only problem I see with using a god like Tiamat, is that she has little to do with drow in the first place. She doesn't have much to offer them that other gods don't already. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 04:03:23
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
I am in total mental conflict right.....I'm actualyy gerting a headache XC. Maybe I could ask Ed? I want a dark deity but one who accepts love and believes in loyalty and workng sorking together. Shar just kinda seemed that way. Maybe Ed could alter her a bit? (like that'll ever happen) If anyone can think of any evil/unaligned/good deities that are dark and non sexist and is canonical, please me know.
Even if Ed wanted to change Shar, he can't -- she's owned by WotC, and changing her would not only be a retcon, it'd be a retcon that would invalidate part of their current focus with the Realms.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 05:45:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Unless Shar secretly slew and replaced Lolth during the latter's Silence...
Eilistraee would've noticed.
Maybe not... During the Avatar Crisis, Shar made Selûne believe that an imposter -- Shar! -- was the real Selûne. If she can make her enemy doubt her own identity, fooling the wayward (and considerably less-powerful) offspring of an impersonated deity shouldn't be too difficult. |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 13:19:51
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| If 'Ye wish for Ye're home brew to jive with canon, Sharan clergy with loving family lives are out. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 14:17:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Unless Shar secretly slew and replaced Lolth during the latter's Silence...
Eilistraee would've noticed.
Maybe not... During the Avatar Crisis, Shar made Selûne believe that an imposter -- Shar! -- was the real Selûne. If she can make her enemy doubt her own identity, fooling the wayward (and considerably less-powerful) offspring of an impersonated deity shouldn't be too difficult.
As you said, that was during the Avatar crisis, when all the gods were reduced to mortal avatars (with mortal senses, etc). I'd think it's one thing to fool a mortal, quite another to fool a deity with their full godly abilities intact.
Then again, this is the new D&D where Mystra can get tricked and killed from behind on her home plane. So what do I know, really?
"Cyric, Shar... you wanna come over for tea? Sure, sure thing."
"Mystra, LOOK OVER THERE!"
WHACK!
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 14:23:56
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Honestly I don't expect much more competence than that out of Midnightstra.
Anyway, the more I think about it the less I'm inclined to rule out Shar, even including the loving family. I doubt very many people hold completely to every aspect of their patron's faith. There are even chosen who don't.
It's no secret, even among her faithful, that Lolth is to sanity what Demogorgon is to having a single head, and that she actively screws with her faithful for no other reason than her own amusement. A fed up house could look for any other alternative and decide that Shar is "close enough" to what they want in a goddess. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Drow Story
