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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 14:50:27
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You know, the more I think about it also... having a loving family in the midst of a drow city would be a form of insanity. It might actually suit her evil core to do such a thing. Because either the loving family has to lose, or Lolth has to lose, or Menzoberranzan has to lose. So loss is guaranteed no matter what. And it would fit her sense of dark irony in some ways. Shar would get to laugh all the way to the bank, no matter what happens. A lot of damage will be done. And it's sorta sick and twisted, which is right up her alley.
Heck, it could even be Lolth, pretending to be Shar, and doing the whole thing for kicks. Perhaps because she wants to teach her faithful in Menzoberranzan yet another lesson about the futility of love. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 16:02:31
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Oh, indeed! Totally mind blowing to think that a God of Murder, in allegiance with the Goddess of Entropy, in allegiance with the God of Assassins, would be able to pull off a murder.... I mean, that is 3 powers v.1 power... buy Mystra is solo unerring pwnage it just couldn't be....
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
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Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Unless Shar secretly slew and replaced Lolth during the latter's Silence... 
Eilistraee would've noticed. 
Maybe not... During the Avatar Crisis, Shar made Selûne believe that an imposter -- Shar! -- was the real Selûne. If she can make her enemy doubt her own identity, fooling the wayward (and considerably less-powerful) offspring of an impersonated deity shouldn't be too difficult.
As you said, that was during the Avatar crisis, when all the gods were reduced to mortal avatars (with mortal senses, etc). I'd think it's one thing to fool a mortal, quite another to fool a deity with their full godly abilities intact.
Then again, this is the new D&D where Mystra can get tricked and killed from behind on her home plane. So what do I know, really?
"Cyric, Shar... you wanna come over for tea? Sure, sure thing."
"Mystra, LOOK OVER THERE!"
WHACK!
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 18:22:26
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AGREED.
We know from past canon that deities CAN be tricked by other deities - Cyric was walking around with Mask in his hands, for Crisakes! 
So lets not go on about which edition 'ruined' the Realms - if anything, the Realms are a pile of contradictions built on top of a mountain of enigmas. Part of the logic of Ed's setting is that for 'uber ability', there is some sort of counter for it - complete and total balance.
So while a deity is supposed to be inviolate within it's own divine Realm, we know from past lore this simply isn't the case. In Cloak of Shadows we have a mortal - a VERY powerful Malaugryn, but mortal none-the-less - psionically eavesdropping on Bane's mind! I can think of dozens of other examples wherein gods - thinking themselves 'untouchable' within their own realms - were spied on, visited, accosted, and even killed... without their permission, mind you (which shouldn't be possible).
Hence, another 'Divine Lie' revieled; deities are exponentially powerful within their own domains, but NOT invulnerable!!!
How many times in past Realms history have gods gone after other gods (and Archfiends)? We have tons of examples, and not all of them were caught outside their own territory: there is always a loophole that can be exploited.
As for Shar, Not Ed nor anyone else is going to change her. She is not just a 'goddess of darkness', she is SO much more then that, and her existence is part of the very fabric & foundation Realmspace (and elsewhere?) is built upon. You are not asking them to change the Realms, you are asking them to change the entire D&D multiverse - Note the Spellplague and it's repercussions sent 'shockwaves' throughout the known planes, changing them and the deities considerably (Asmodeus, anyone?) You are asking 8 billion people to change their minds about something so your story will work.
Okay... maybe not everyone plays D&D... but you get the point...
Eilistraee is who you are after - she suits what you want to do. Shar is NOT 'nice', nor ever will be. She tolerates mortals (and gods) to live so she can use them, until such a time as she can destroy them all. That's HER DEAL.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Feb 2011 18:23:36 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 18:52:53
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And on at least one occasion, more than one power ganged up on another power and killed it.... point, Alystra?
Markustay, what canon evidence do you have which indicates the powers are inviolate on their home planes? |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 18:56:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We prolly don't need to have that discussion again.
I haven't had this conversation before, would it be ok with you, Scribe Rupert, if I and any scribes so inclined had it? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 19:17:42
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Sorry...
After re-reading that it sounds like I was being a bit antagonistic, which is not how I meant it.
I actually had another three paragraphs here, but all of that has been dealt with before, numerous times. I just want to say it wasn't the outcome that is questionable - ALL of it can be explained - it was the rather uninspired presentation (or lack there of).
On-Topic:
But Shar is, was, and will be pivotal in the Realms, and her nature is clearly defined in canon. On the other hand, I also said she will allow people to believe whatever it suits her for them to believe, so tradwitch's scenario is certainly possible (as is Wooly's, or even both, which would suit her dark sense of humor). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 19:52:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
And on at least one occasion, more than one power ganged up on another power and killed it.... point, Alystra?
My point was that it would almost HAVE to take a whole group of them "ganging up" on her in her home plane, and even then, it's not guaranteed. And how did they manage to slip in without her noticing, anyway? to me, THAT seems like the most ridiculous part. And if she invited them in, then it was doubly dumb on her part. You DON'T let your three worst enemies in through the front door...... (Mind, I've not been able to read the relevant books on that one, so I'm going on what little I've seen posted on the subject here.) It just doesn't make any sense. At least Vaerhaun's case DID. (Except that if he'd had any brains, he would have remembered daddy's warning about what would happen if he so much as touched her. Guess he forgot.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 20:00:24
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Eh, you mean a God of Stealthing should be unable to infiltrate a divine realm? That is dumber than anything I've ever heard!
Markustay, are you saying then there is no canon evidence to support you claim of powers being inviolate in their divine realms? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 20:21:27
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As I said ABOVE, I had THREE paragraphs PROVING my claim that powers HAVE been bested in their own domains, time and again (especially when there were no less then two artifacts involved that had 'deep connections' to Mystra).
I chose to delete them and respect Woolys suggestion, and also keep the thread OT.
If the mods don't mind someone creating another thread, pertaining to the proof that such an event could have happened (quite easily, actually, when you start gathering the facts), then I would submit my proof (which I probably should have saved somewhere, rather then deleted). Unfortunately those threads tend to slide downhill rather quickly. 
Damn... I just did it again, and once again erased what I had. Too much emotional baggage still attached to the Spellague/4e 'lore' (I even hesitate calling it lore... sheesh...)
I am trying to move on, as we all should. Editions have no place here at the 'keep - this is about a setting, not editions. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Feb 2011 20:23:45 |
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 21:00:52
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(Gargauth)
also known as the "Tenth Lord of Nine," the "Lost Lord of the Pit," and the "Hidden Lord," is the deity of betrayal, cruelty, political corruption, and powerbrokers. He embodies the inevitable decay and corruption that accompanies all self-serving, greedy, and power-hungry leaders and groups. He shows a veneer of civility and compassion whenever encountered, and he relishes in twisting a contract with someone to serve his own ends by holding only to the letter of the agreement. Gargauth is a master strategist, and his sense of humor moderates his temper. He uses his followers, who constantly seek to increase their personal power, to act as his eyes and ears throughout Faerun. He also has them entice and corrupt powerful individuals and bind them into strict contracts.
I dont know how love would factor in but i'm sure you could find a way to bend a rule or two! Or a contract for that matter?
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"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
— H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 22:05:21
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| I can't stress howmuch I do NOT want Eillistraee. She's too much of goodness and light and mercy and helping the needy. House Zanzifae is not one of those types. They are cruel, merciless, and saddistic to their enemies. They alsoare racist to many non-fae races. They get along with all of te fae races tht will deal with them. They get along with Aasimars, Tieflings, Genasi, and tolerate humans barely. They don't allow humans in ther cities, only on the out skirts or on the outside of the walls. If Mystra isn't lawful, I'll more than likely use her. But the problem is that she's dead. |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 22:33:42
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
If Mystra isn't lawful, I'll more than likely use her. But the problem is that she's dead.
Check out 'Elminster Must Die!', by Ed Greenwood. It takes place in the Year of the Ageless One (1479DR). |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 00:19:19
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Oh my lawd... I really need to restrict my offhand commentary. Save me Tom Cruise!
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 01:16:58
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| So, I was readong the FR wiki and it said Mystra might have been ressurected....again. I hope that she has and doesn't get killed......again.House Zanzifae you may be in luck!!!! Plus, how would I be able to shield their true pracises and soce they are a thrid House, they had to get Lolth's favor. Any ideas? They mostly just pay lip service to te Spider Queen. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 01:19:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Oh my lawd... I really need to restrict my offhand commentary. Save me Tom Cruise!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!  |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 02:47:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Eh, you mean a God of Stealthing should be unable to infiltrate a divine realm? That is dumber than anything I've ever heard!
Erdrick, That's not what I meant at all. Let's just say I think it would be much harder for even ONE deity to "sneak" into another's domain than that, much less three of them. Even a god of thieves isn't completely immune to being detected. I'll leave it at that.
TW, if you want to use a different deity, you could use Vaerhaun. Yes, he's technically dead, but as we've seen with Mystra, gods can be resurrected, and it's conceivable that he could be brought back by his followers. (And it would make for some great story ideas- the House could be a family of Masked Traitors!) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 03:21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Eh, you mean a God of Stealthing should be unable to infiltrate a divine realm? That is dumber than anything I've ever heard!
Erdrick, That's not what I meant at all. Let's just say I think it would be much harder for even ONE deity to "sneak" into another's domain than that, much less three of them. Even a god of thieves isn't completely immune to being detected. I'll leave it at that.
TW, if you want to use a different deity, you could use Vaerhaun. Yes, he's technically dead, but as we've seen with Mystra, gods can be resurrected, and it's conceivable that he could be brought back by his followers. (And it would make for some great story ideas- the House could be a family of Masked Traitors!)
But he's evil though...... I'm probably gonna go with Mystra, she's prettymucj like them. And aligent really is only all lawful, all neutral, and chaotic neutral/good. House Zanzifae sorta could be considered evil, in that they enslavecreatures that the hate (goblin kind, orcs, other creatures like them and enmes though they are rare because they could plot a revolt). But they really are just plain neutral and good (not sickeningly good, but a dark kond ofgood). |
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Drow Story
