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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 02:04:20
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I know this has been discussed before, but that was a long time ago. I'd like to know of any newer references of it or characters that are MAE homosexuals. A thought, how would drow male homosexuality be handled in Lolthite society? I haye thay vile goddess, but just am curios. Please keep it on both topics. :)
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 02:10:05
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I actually posed that question to Ed last year as it partained to a drow centric campaign I'm running. The answer boiled down to the well stated law of drow society; "You can do anything you want, so long as you don't get caught" with the caveate that women can get away with more than men.
In essence, two male drow can have a homosexual relationship so long as the womenfolk don't catch them. Or, if they're lucky, the female with direct authority over them might be into that and enjoy watching. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 02:28:33
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| I kind of figured that since females in Lolthite society wouldn't tolerate it since they are an exremely mariarichal societ.I'd heard that noone really cared but I wanted to hear it from an official source. Do you know of anu male homosexuals in the fiction boks? :D |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 02:31:05
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| As far as I know there haven't been any openly or explicitly homosexual male characters, but I haven't read anywhere near all FR novels. I did noticed when reading one of the Ask Ed threads that there was a character intended to be gay, and can be read as such without it being explicit, but that's it. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 02:42:20
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| Do you know who this character is? I am myself and I'd like to read more about them i the Realms. I guess I want to because it makes more sense to me, clear as mud? But I have no problem reading about non homosexuals. Right now I'm absorbed into The Last Mythal Trilogy and The Lady Penitent Trilogy. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4705 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 03:23:22
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What is all the gender focus I am seeing? There should never be a gander tern used for homosexual.
The Realms, mostly inferred, clearly has no issue with the matter.
As to Drow, there are laws, but to be a successful Drow one breaks any law they desire. If skilled enough, they do not get caught. The ones that lose if lucky get killed, unlucky become a Drider.
It is part of normal Drow culture to break the rules.
TSR, nor WotC would have overt reference to homosexual encounters. After all part of target market is 10 year olds. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 03:38:40
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| The gender fo us I'm javig on this s be ase that there be been female no heterosexuals, and so I decidwd to ask the quwstion.?To be jonest, I don't think I have met a ten year od who has any idwa wat FR is. And plus, it desn't atter wat age someoe, its just natural. But we are not here to discuss homosexualt and society, so, movig on..... |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 03:44:57
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I THINK I can (sort of) answer this. Yes, drow DO practice this. (And more often than you might think!) In fact, It's been implied in some books that they really have no overt problem with it, either from males or females. Or at least, there doesn't seem to be any specific law against it, it's just sort of frowned on as "disgusting". (And Matron Triel has even been thought to be homosexual by her own kin. Take that as you will...) As for specific males who are/were, it has been speculated many times that Jarlaxle at least rides the fence, though he has several obviously homosexual tendencies, if you read closely enough- like his wanting to be close to Drizzt because of his previous friendship with Zaknafein, his meddling in Entreri's life, and his outrageous attire. A maybe, where he is concerned. Phaeraun Mizzrim was the one that is "supposed" to be, and it's not explicitly stated, but can certainly be implied in his case.
Male drow often spend long periods of time alone together on patrols and such, and many despise their Matrons. Would it REALLY surprise ANYONE that there are a few "same side of the fence" relationships going on? No, I didn't think so. Females, too, seem to occasionally dip into their own pool, but in that case, it seems to be a dominance thing. From what I've read (which is pretty much all the novels and source-books that deal with drow), it's really not that uncommon, nor do they seem to care one way or another. The women are only interested in the males for breeding or pleasure, but mostly ignore them otherwise, so I'd say they probably don't even notice if a few males decide to play around within their own gender. And the males are probably just happy to be with someone who won't use a snake-whip on them if they don't "perform" well! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4705 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 04:12:26
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*bangs head* I know I have had typo problems, I even can solve a few puzzles.
The halfling/human thread had some members inferring that halfling was the female, when in fact the halfling was the male.
Gender does not matter in the realms in most of the societies/ In Drow culture it has never appeared to be an issue at all, unless caught and one more powerful decided to punish.
The Lolthian society has rules that appear to forbid males from doing anything except the will of the females permit or order them to do. The females however also ignore the males when not needed.
I think in many ways the question ha been answered as best Alystra and I can.
A Sage might come along with more information. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 04:33:53
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| Ah, to elaborate on what Kentinal said above- Yes the males ARE expected to obey the orders of the females, but other than that, they can pretty much do whatever they want as long as it doesn't go against a specific order from their (female) superiors. Otherwise, they'd never be able to conduct any business or schemes of their own, which we know they frequently do. So while an individual Matron might frown on it, it seems there's no general ruling against it. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 05:07:38
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Why among drow only? Homosexuality is common among nobles, too, I suppose. Arclath is one. He didn't say it, as no FR character ever did, and most probably ever will, but his mother made it quite plain. When he 'teased' her that her dalliances tended to be mostly with young men, or boys, his mother said it's he who had such kind of dalliance.
Among drow, I only know one who's gay: Pharaun.
I [vaguely] recall a scene in Frostfell where a man [the owner of the caravan, I think] tried to rape Amira's son.
Marek Rymut, I believe, is also gay. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4705 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 05:14:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Why among drow only? Homosexuality is common among nobles, too, I suppose. Arclath is one. He didn't say it, as no FR character ever did, and most probably ever will, but his mother made it quite plain. When he 'teased' her that her dalliances tended to be mostly with young men, or boys, his mother said it's he who had such kind of dalliance.
Among drow, I only know one who's gay: Pharaun.
I [vaguely] recall a scene in Frostfell where a man [the owner of the caravan, I think] tried to rape Amira's son.
Marek Rymut, I believe, is also gay.
Hmm the subject was in Realms, however the OP really appeared to be asking in part if not in whole how Drow deal with the issue.
The OP has indicated is done with this scroll, it is with hope received best answers that could be offered in the short time span. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 05:34:46
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| @ dennis- Actually, I recall that scene with Arclath and his mother, and I believe she was only being catty. Since they seem to hate each other so much, it was most likely a jab at him, and nothing more, especially given the fact that he was a quite frequent visitor of the "fest-hall" where Amarune worked. Not to mention the fact that he also hired her for an escort for a party, and seemed quite smitten with her throughout the book. If anything, his mother was just trying to get a rise out of him. No pun intended.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 06:15:49
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His silence after his mother's retort seems to confirm it. His fondness of Amarune suggests he might be bisexual, which is practically gay still, with shades of straightness. Anyway, I'm waiting for Lady THO's reply to my PM about this. Only Ed can best answer it---that is, of course, if it's not NDA. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 06:39:39
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| I think it's a very broad assumption to make off of only one scene when most of the book seems to contradict that idea. His silence may have only been to refrain from dignifying her comment with a response. Sort of taking the high road, as it were. Or perhaps he HAD once gone that route out of curiosity, and she simply would not let him live it down. That doesn't mean that he still is/was. For that matter, perhaps he just could no come up with a suitable reply to get her back with. Whatever the case, it's fairly obvious that he is quite the opposite in most of the book. A homosexual male would not have been risking his neck repeatedly for a girl he clearly wanted to bed or even have a relationship with. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 07:01:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
A homosexual male would not have been risking his neck repeatedly for a girl he clearly wanted to bed or even have a relationship with.
While I'm not that kind of gay, I personally know some gays/bisexuals who are [more or less]. You should meet them and hear their outrageous but true stories.
------
Wasn't there a rumor about Arclath's homosexuality among some nobles in that club where Rune worked? [And do remember that every rumor sometimes has a tinge of truth.] |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 16 Feb 2011 07:44:22 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 07:31:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Wasn't there a rumor about Arclath's homosexuality among some nobles in that club where Rune worked?
Well, Arclath is a dandy, and such rumors are extremely common about dandies. Bandying about one's sexual proclivities is HUGELY common among nobles. It's all over fantasy fiction and hardly unique to Arclath's case.
What I do wonder is that accusing a noble in the Realms of having homosexual interests/inclinations is a pejorative in a more sexually liberated society like the Realms. That would seem to contradict the concept, but then I suppose some folk in the Realms are more open-minded than others. I suppose a contrast with RL nobility, where such a rumor of The Love That Dare Not Speak Its Name would spell the end of a young nobleman's political power and generate a scandal that would destroy him.
To address the OP, I have always assumed that drow male homosexual practice is rather common, though not widely approved (as it represents stepping outside their tight control by the matriarchy). I take as evidence the consortium/"brotherhood" of male drow insurgents in the early books of the WotSQ.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 08:04:00
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Taking the example of the campaign I mentioned earlier, it involved a male drow wizard who was forced to witness the death of his lover, who had become a plaguechanged. Now, up until this point in the campaign this character's sexuality hadn't featured at all. However, he was a strong willed individual, highly resistant and resentful of female drow authority. Based on his character I could only see him in a relationship based off of mutual respect, which between men and women is more or less ilegal in drow society.
So I approached the player with the possibility of having the character be homosexual. He wasn't sure of drow attitudes towards it, and ultimately wasn't comfortable playing a homosexual character, but it was what sparked my initial query into this topic. I stand by my initial reasoning being sound. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 08:28:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I THINK I can (sort of) answer this. Yes, drow DO practice this. (And more often than you might think!) In fact, It's been implied in some books that they really have no overt problem with it, either from males or females. Or at least, there doesn't seem to be any specific law against it, it's just sort of frowned on as "disgusting". (And Matron Triel has even been thought to be homosexual by her own kin. Take that as you will...) As for specific males who are/were, it has been speculated many times that Jarlaxle at least rides the fence, though he has several obviously homosexual tendencies, if you read closely enough- like his wanting to be close to Drizzt because of his previous friendship with Zaknafein, his meddling in Entreri's life, and his outrageous attire. A maybe, where he is concerned. Phaeraun Mizzrim was the one that is "supposed" to be, and it's not explicitly stated, but can certainly be implied in his case.
Male drow often spend long periods of time alone together on patrols and such, and many despise their Matrons. Would it REALLY surprise ANYONE that there are a few "same side of the fence" relationships going on? No, I didn't think so. Females, too, seem to occasionally dip into their own pool, but in that case, it seems to be a dominance thing. From what I've read (which is pretty much all the novels and source-books that deal with drow), it's really not that uncommon, nor do they seem to care one way or another. The women are only interested in the males for breeding or pleasure, but mostly ignore them otherwise, so I'd say they probably don't even notice if a few males decide to play around within their own gender. And the males are probably just happy to be with someone who won't use a snake-whip on them if they don't "perform" well!
Agreed. Moreover: in a society in which power is everything, every way to achieve it is encouraged. So, every drow, I think, should at last be open minded about the next person in whose bed he/she is going to find him/herself!
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 12:47:54
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How about among dwarves, with their clan and hard working beliefs?
Or how would this be viewed among the Netherese and Shades? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 13:54:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Wasn't there a rumor about Arclath's homosexuality among some nobles in that club where Rune worked?
Well, Arclath is a dandy, and such rumors are extremely common about dandies. Bandying about one's sexual proclivities is HUGELY common among nobles. It's all over fantasy fiction and hardly unique to Arclath's case.
This. Arclath wasn't gay, but he was definitely a "dandy" (dressing in fancy clothes, having certain airs about himself, etc). But he clearly was interested in the girl.
quote:
What I do wonder is that accusing a noble in the Realms of having homosexual interests/inclinations is a pejorative in a more sexually liberated society like the Realms. That would seem to contradict the concept, but then I suppose some folk in the Realms are more open-minded than others. I suppose a contrast with RL nobility, where such a rumor of The Love That Dare Not Speak Its Name would spell the end of a young nobleman's political power and generate a scandal that would destroy him.
In the Realms, I don't think it matters in the same way, other than a thing to talk about behind peoples' backs (in a way similar to "OMG can you believe what she WORE last evening? Simply horrible tailoring!).
Arclath's and his mother hated each other, and her "slam" at him had more to do with him being the male noble heir to the family and not specifically with sexuality. She hated him for "not being a man" (read: because he was a dandy, not "butch"), and not sleeping around with all sorts of random women. Arclath probably reinforced the dandy image just because it infuriated her so much. Remember also that she was bringing in young men to have sexual liaisons with, also, and Arclath was disgusted with her overall behavior.
I suspect, with a mother like that (harshly judgmental, bitchy, and demeaning), he would wait and not go sleeping around (as she herself was clearly doing) but rather use his "dandy" persona as a shield against similar young women among the nobility. In the book, he actually falls in love El's daughter, and I think it's because she's literally the opposite of his mother.
quote:
To address the OP, I have always assumed that drow male homosexual practice is rather common, though not widely approved (as it represents stepping outside their tight control by the matriarchy). I take as evidence the consortium/"brotherhood" of male drow insurgents in the early books of the WotSQ.
I suspect drow homosexuality is pretty commonplace, although it wouldn't be for love in most cases. Just an expression of lust.
On the topside Realms, homosexuality is part of the norm. We only have seen (well, implications more than seeing) female homosexuality and that has a lot to do with prior restrictions on anything sexual being published and partly to do with the target audience.
If you read Ed's stuff, homosexual encounters and relationships aren't looked at in the same way our society does. In the Realms, it's just another thing that happens (often right in the open, without any judgment). Festhalls, certain parties, even big-name characters have all sorts of things going on.
The reason it'd be mildly salacious in the topside Realms (like Cormyr) is because everybody wants to know who (and what) the rich & powerful are doing the horizontal mambo with. Also, if a particular noble isn't likely to get married and have children, that's a big deal. Young marriageable women want to know which male nobles are gay so they don't spend a lot of time chasing after someone who's disinterested. Similarly, young marriageable men won't court a lesbian noble because it won't be effective in the long run. Nobles do want to keep the family lines going though, and in Arclath's case he was the male heir. IMO the whole "dandy" image was to ward off young women interested only in his money (and also to infuriate his mother). |
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 15 Feb 2011 14:00:45 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 14:10:38
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I felt Aumvor was gay cause he looks like baron Harkonnen
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 18:53:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Taking the example of the campaign I mentioned earlier, it involved a male drow wizard who was forced to witness the death of his lover, who had become a plaguechanged. Now, up until this point in the campaign this character's sexuality hadn't featured at all. However, he was a strong willed individual, highly resistant and resentful of female drow authority. Based on his character I could only see him in a relationship based off of mutual respect, which between men and women is more or less ilegal in drow society.
So I approached the player with the possibility of having the character be homosexual. He wasn't sure of drow attitudes towards it, and ultimately wasn't comfortable playing a homosexual character, but it was what sparked my initial query into this topic. I stand by my initial reasoning being sound.
For the record, CoA, I agree with your initial reasoning being sound. That's certainly a reasonable case in which a drow might be more inclined to expressions of his impulses with male partners, rather than female. Do note that you should never *force* a player to play his/her character in any particular way (especially not in an aspect so potentially explosive), so the player in question is definitely within his rights to respond the way he did.
I also do want to agree with Eltheron's point about that behavior not necessarily equating to love. I have seen very little actual "love" in drow society--their chaotic evil zeitgeist seems to prohibit it. But it's entirely feasible, reasonable, and likely that oppressed drow males who disdain their female tyrants might form those sorts of bonds with other drow males, whether it's their orientation or not.
That's also a slap in the face to female power, as it cuts the matriarchy out of something really powerful and influential to those involved. So drow males would totally be inclined--if they can get away with it.
Another issue to be raised is the difference between a character "being" and "acting" homosexual. One's sexuality isn't a choice--only one's actions are. A drow male who wants to undermine the matriarchy and secure power over fellow drow males might undertake homosexual acts, which may or may not reflect his inner sexuality. A drow male who *is* homosexual is more likely to undertake those acts without those kind of calculations involved (though he might very well at other times use his actual sexuality as a weapon).
I know some people want to debate sexuality-as-a-choice, and I'd really rather this thread not go that way. Rather, I'm just saying this is another matter to consider: whether a drow male or any other character undertakes homosexual acts for the psychological/social gain, as a true expression of his feelings and impulses, or both.
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
How about among dwarves, with their clan and hard working beliefs?
There's actually a helpful passage in the Book of Erotic Fantasy that addresses this very issue. Basically, dwarves spend so much time on brotherhood and camaraderie, that it's quite possible (and not particularly frowned upon) for it to take a step further into actual romantic connection.
quote:
Or how would this be viewed among the Netherese and Shades?
Aside from them being very secretive about it (and using the information against their enemies in any way they can), it's probably viewed similarly as elsewhere in the Realms. Unless you happen to see Netherese society as more staid/traditional in its way, in which case Returned Netheril probably has traces of that.
Cheers
P.S. I want to applaud everyone for so far not saying the kinds of garbage that usually gets a thread like this locked. Keep up the respectful and fair discourse, please! |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 18:59:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
TSR, nor WotC would have overt reference to homosexual encounters. After all part of target market is 10 year olds.
Now now, let's be fair--the target market is a little older than that. (More like 13-15 year olds!) 
I kid, I kid. The books are written to be enjoyed by readers of all ages of around 10+, but that means that some things need to be a little less racy for the younger readers. (Or at least better hidden.)
WotC (and Hasbro through them) are indeed somewhat conservative when it comes to any sexual issues, particularly ones outside of a very traditional one-man-plus-one-woman view. Also, regardless of the gender and orientation of the participants, fade-to-black is a much more acceptable literary technique in a book series marketed to young people.
That doesn't mean progress isn't being made on that front, and as society relaxes its hang-ups, such themes become a little more acceptable in the fiction and design of the Realms. Some of the stuff that's come out in the last few years would NEVER have seen the light of day twenty years ago, and I think that's real progress.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 15 Feb 2011 19:00:30 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 19:05:07
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| Yeah, that was an aspect I wanted to touch on, too, but wasn't sure if it would press buttons for people. I can totally see drow males using sex as a weapon for dominance over other males, especially in a master/apprentice sort of relationship. I even wrote a case of it into a tale of mine (as a way of "teaching a life-lesson" to the younger drow) to emphasize that point. Of course, it ended badly for both parties, in that case- the younger male by being emotionally scarred and not wanting to ever trust any relationship again, and the perpetrator by being turned into a drider by the kid's Matron when she found out. (Not because it wa "wrong", per-se, but because he did it without her knowledge or permission regarding his "methods" of teaching...) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4705 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 19:06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
TSR, nor WotC would have overt reference to homosexual encounters. After all part of target market is 10 year olds.
Now now, let's be fair--the target market is a little older than that. (More like 13-15 year olds!)
I kid, I kid. The books are written to be enjoyed by readers of all ages of around 10+, but that means that some things need to be a little less racy for the younger readers. (Or at least better hidden.)
WotC (and Hasbro through them) are indeed somewhat conservative when it comes to any sexual issues, particularly ones outside of a very traditional one-man-plus-one-woman view. Also, regardless of the gender and orientation of the participants, fade-to-black is a much more acceptable literary technique in a book series marketed to young people.
That doesn't mean progress isn't being made on that front, and as society relaxes its hang-ups, such themes become a little more acceptable in the fiction and design of the Realms. Some of the stuff that's come out in the last few years would NEVER have seen the light of day twenty years ago, and I think that's real progress.
Cheers
Well it actually comes down to when D&D was sold. I have some items saying for 10 and above and others that say 12 and above.
Overall, I do agree progress has been made in what is released - that is in at least understanding sexuality is part of any world.
As far as current minimum target market of WotC (or Hasbro) I do not know. I am outside seeing only parts that insiders (like Ed and you) can provide. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 21:41:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
That doesn't mean progress isn't being made on that front, and as society relaxes its hang-ups, such themes become a little more acceptable in the fiction and design of the Realms. Some of the stuff that's come out in the last few years would NEVER have seen the light of day twenty years ago, and I think that's real progress.
Cheers
I'll admit they're more open than they used to be, but I'd like to point out that in Spellfire, Lhaeo said that outside of Elminster's tower, he was thought of as a "simpering man-lover from Baldur's Gate." He wasn't, and that's revealed later in the book -- but at least it's been mentioned practically from the beginning.
I'm also inclined to wonder how much of this avoidance of certain adult(ish) topics comes from corporate (Hasbro), and how much is simply WotC personnel imposing their own mores on the Realms? I'm not saying this as a negative thing, mind you -- I'm honestly curious as to who it is that's setting the limits, and why those limits are set.
There is certainly an unfortunate tendency on the part of many people to impose their own morality on others, deliberately or not -- and book editors and creative directors could unintentionally do so by saying "Our readers won't want to read something like this."
So again, I'm not saying someone is deliberately imposing their morality on us, but it's not impossible that it could be done unconciously. And I am thus curious about this. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 21:55:28
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| Does anyone know where it s mentioned that Pharaun os homoexual? I presume it s ithe War f the Spider Queen seres, I have te frst two books of it. Always assumed that drw male homosexuality was a bit kore common than people thogt becase, yo lnw, Toer Brannach migt bring fth some feeongs te had n tr earts :D And about Chosen of Asmodeus's friend, I wouldn't feel comfortable playing a heterosexual male character,l of my male charscters are homosexal, like , lol. |
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Gouf
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 22:06:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
How about among dwarves, with their clan and hard working beliefs?
In the current campaign I am in, there is a May/December relationship between 2 male dwarves (one PC, one NPC). Both are bi. A 3rd dwarf/player in the party knows and occasionally refers to or introduces the other PC in a jockular manor as "Blackstone the Decadent, Blade of the Brightaxe".
It's a 2nd Ed campaign, so NO Thunder Blessing. Realistically, Since only 1 in 3 dwarves was born female in the Realms during 2nd Ed. It seems only logical the left over 30% of male dwarves would either find companionship in other races (See FR11 Half Dwarves - with Humans, Gnomes, Halflings, or Elves. Dwarven blood being domanant.) Or they would find comfort in their other fellow male dwarven companions.
JMHO. |
"Why is the torch burning blue?" |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 22:20:53
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| Ewww..... Dwarf homosexuals? *shivers*I'm stickig to my gay Eladrin/Elves, Aasimars, Genasi, Vampires, and Humans, thank you :) |
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Male Homosexuality in the Realms
Topic Locked
