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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Oct 2003 : 05:01:38
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I'm just curious, Does ANYONE know a cure to the dreaded disease known as Munchkinism?
I ask because I fear that I may be a munchkin... I desire a cure to it. I can only pray, for now, that my fear is unfounded...
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Edited by - Alaundo on 01 Nov 2003 11:29:33
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2003 : 07:27:08
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I cannot really suggest any type of cure, because, as DM experience has taught me, Munchkinism progressively erodes away the foundations of a good campaign. I very often find the need to either ask the player to refrain from playing in such a manner, or remove him from the game entirely. It's rather drastic I know, but I like my games to proceed with as few disruptions as possible.
Besides, most of my games are role-played, rather than straight out roll-playing. As I have said before, some session can pass with very little dice-rolling at all.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 27 Oct 2003 07:27:43 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2003 : 15:34:05
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Might I suggest you tell us what it is that you find disturbing about the way you play? That might help us tell you what you could do to change things.
Myself, I am a bit of a munchkin as well. I say this because I always try to get the best kind of character I can make; however, I'm like this in other things, where my competitive nature comes to the fore.
Mostly, though, the reason I spend so much time gathering my points and placing them just so is that I think the numbers on your sheet should reflect the character you have chosen. When I look at the stats, I want everything to make sense. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Jander Sunstar
Learned Scribe
Turkey
275 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2003 : 16:31:01
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| What is a munchkin? Is it like crazy or is it a person who likes powerplay very much? |
Punish me if you will, for my hands are not clean. But deny me not my revenge!"
-Jander Sunstar |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2003 : 00:02:48
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| Munchkinism is when a player treats the game like an action movie. They pore over every character option, trying to make the most powerful character they can, and then try to warp everything for their personal benefit. |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2003 : 03:37:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Munchkinism is when a player treats the game like an action movie. They pore over every character option, trying to make the most powerful character they can, and then try to warp everything for their personal benefit.
*Cough* Well, I have a bit of this myself but Its Str. & Con. that I want high.I care less, not don't care,care less about the others but I hate weakness and have to have a strong Character.I do try and design a powerful warrior. |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2003 : 05:53:02
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Ah.. then perhaps I am not totally afflicted... but still.. I will reiterate... and with my last game I played. Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. (Spooky huh?)
Well I came in a little late... so my character had to introduce himself as a friend (kinda) when he meets the party.. being a fool I played a Duergar Mage cleric (Lvl 1/1, effectively lvl 4) anyways.. being a fool I decided to go into the basement of the moathouse rather than meet the party.. I end up ambushed as in hit the final stairs and like any brave duergar, promptly turn invisible and beat a retreat...
One of the other party members decides to set up an alarm system and opps... I happen to get two dwarven feet full of Caltrops... of course I yelped and the party came in and attaked the gnolls staring at the oddly floating caltrops in the corner with a cautious eye.. I heal myself (since a gnoll hit me on a wild swing when I went invis) we carry the battle down the stairs only to be ambushed by more gnolls and a human. Once dispatched we move ahead some to be caught by some ghouls ... A half ogre paralized and a human monk goes down ( promptly before, I had gone down to the gnolls but was saved by said monk) I owed a debt so I ran, got a mage ( one of the party who was outside) brought him down saved monk and he fried ghouls. Return to town to heal..
I got sucked into an alliance with the surface human ( the monk) and the half ogre.so after that we return to moathouse to be promptly ambushed ( more or less) by gnolls. My allies begin a smoke screen attack, I go invis and decide to sneak in and cause havoc from behind them. Then the Battle of Helms De..I mean the Moathouse was on. Upon arriving at said location I found a Human and a lizard man. Realizing silence is the better part of Valor I await for a better signal from my allies ( whom use smoke screen to advance and make the numbers of a tiny band into an army  ) Gnolls get nervious then comes the signal several flasks of oil that soak the gnolls and trip them up.. I let loose a burning hands... battle continues and I go down again... Almost dead, -9 hp but save by monk at last minute... we heal up and decend looking for the Human and Lizard...
About a portion of the way in ( decent through torture chamber) We are once again attacked by ghouls well one and something stronger... I manage to turn one, only to find that a gnoll, human and lizard man once again join the battle... Half-ogre paralized, I go down, I get rescued, monk goes down... our remaining flasks... ok back pack of oil is used to ignite gnolls, ghoul thing (ghast) goes down, being brave I take off deeper into to tunnels, as I do I drop my four flasks around a corner to slip up human and lizard... human and lizard are slipped and promptly set on fire by running now slipping gnoll...everyone makes beline to water hole. I make stand, Half-ogre now unparalized, saves monk, I go down ( AGAIN!!!! ) and are rescued by monk again...we finish off last three ( lizard human and gnoll) Out of oil, out of healing. out of everything!!!
Tired, dirty, smell like smoke, but the point is that for some odd reason my playing style was more hack and slash as a mage but when I make a warrior i played a more mageish style hanging back, letting others fight more, etc. Any thoughts? My various DM's have said my style of roleplaying does give them a good laugh and some times bests them but my near death count was what? Four!... The problem I have seems to be (I would think) a skewed view of munchkinism..
Granted I roleplayed a lawful Evil more or less reasonably. I've already sold 5% of all my gains for the debt I've incured to the monk... S.O.S.!!! |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Jander Sunstar
Learned Scribe
Turkey
275 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2003 : 11:46:18
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I don't think munchkinizm is that bad.
I want my char to be strong and I do what I have to do in order to achive this goal.
But good role play is another thing that dms care and give xp. |
Punish me if you will, for my hands are not clean. But deny me not my revenge!"
-Jander Sunstar |
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kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2003 : 01:17:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
I cannot really suggest any type of cure, because, as DM experience has taught me, Munchkinism progressively erodes away the foundations of a good campaign.
I have to say I disagree with this viewpoint. It's simply too much of a generalisation.
I believe that Munchkinism is fine within the right context.
I've regularly introduced children (ie below 10 years of age) to D&D and their mindset allows them to get into the game much easier if they adopt a munchkin attitude. Of course they want the most powerful character they can get, of course they want to kill everything in sight and collect as much treasure as possible. Is this a bad thing? No, I don't believe it is. They are enjoying the game (in their own way), learning the game mechanics and to be honest I enjoy DMing these sessions (no pressure to provide a deep and meaningful plot for example).
I do expect my adult players to behave differently, however. With them I don't believe munchkinism is a good thing and do try to discourage it. If a player insists on adopting a munchkin attitude, fine. So long as it doesn't affect the other player's enjoyment of the campaign I'm prepared to let it go - the player is inevitably penalised anyway by losing out on experience points due to lack of roleplaying. I tend to find these situations sort themselves out without my involvement - if one player keeps grabbing whatever loot is available it doesn't take long for the other players to sort it.
Isn't there an element of Munchkinism in real life? I tend to think that's what ambition is. Someone wishing to make himself more powerful to get a better job (and hence earn more money) seems to fit the description generally adopted for a Munchkin very well  |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2003 : 02:42:51
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kahonen,
I glad you feel that way,No matter what game I play or have ever played,I always thought that building your character in RPG was part of the fun reguardless to the type of game,pc,table top,video it all may have different rules,worlds,monsters,etc but I always wanted the best and tried to improve as the game progressed.Anything can be over
done and then its like Doom on god mode,thats no fun.I want to be killable,if you can't be killed then I can't relate since I am not any
where near immortal in my own existence. |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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Edited by - William of Waterdeep on 29 Oct 2003 02:44:16 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2003 : 05:08:38
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Are you so sure, William? Have you been in a train wreck lately? I hear that's the best way to check . . . .
I think that people are confused with the definitions here. What I call munchkinism is distilling everything to a bunch of numbers and dice rolls, with the sole goal of getting the highest number possible. A munchkin is a player who whines about restrictions on how many rings his character can wear -- he's got ten fingers, right? He's the sort of person who will chase after animals for the little bit of XP they can offer. The kind of guy who looks like he's going to fall asleep unless the dice are rolling.
Otherwise, it's still good. There's a difference between a munchkin and a bad (or maybe just inexperienced)role player. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2003 : 05:54:56
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| Actually, that's a good definition, Bookwyrm. The line about the animals reminds me of the incident with the dwarven patrol, but that's a different matter... |
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Jander Sunstar
Learned Scribe
Turkey
275 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2003 : 11:32:14
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I heard low level party stocked in a tranquil island and they didn't have any skill related to ship making or navigation. This was a 2nd ed campaign and they had to kill every animal on that island in order level up
I m sure DM could place some orcs or a mage with some power who sent them to find a lost item of his and to reward their efforts he could teleported them to a problemed port
I think he didn't think such posibility and wasn't ready for it |
Punish me if you will, for my hands are not clean. But deny me not my revenge!"
-Jander Sunstar |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2003 : 20:44:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Are you so sure, William? Have you been in a train wreck lately? I hear that's the best way to check . . . .
I think that people are confused with the definitions here. What I call munchkinism is distilling everything to a bunch of numbers and dice rolls, with the sole goal of getting the highest number possible. A munchkin is a player who whines about restrictions on how many rings his character can wear -- he's got ten fingers, right? He's the sort of person who will chase after animals for the little bit of XP they can offer. The kind of guy who looks like he's going to fall asleep unless the dice are rolling.
Otherwise, it's still good. There's a difference between a munchkin and a bad (or maybe just inexperienced)role player.
I guess there are different definitions or interpretations because some people say that trying too many rolls to get the character
you want is munchkinism.
As far as the train wreck,I'll pass,Been in enough car wrecks. |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2003 : 13:55:57
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Ok im going to say this just once, and none of you better tell me this is wrong. YOU ALL should agree. Third edition D&D games, as well as most other third ed games, and ALL far to easy to break and snap characters. Its that simple. Just far far to easy.
Second, 3.5 made it even EASIER to snap chars. True they brought back some cool thinks like bardic knowledge, but jesus h christ people. Drow with Dacing lights???? How stupid is that? I mean come on what do DROW NOT LIKE!? LIGHT! God they went stupid while doing the 3.5 materials. Hell they took away drow's ability to levitate? BS. Anyway.
As said before 3.0 & 3.5 Are FAR to easy to break. |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2003 : 17:50:37
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The stuff you've complaining about was in D&D 3e first. The ability to levitate, if I recall, was originally a power only among powerful drow, and especially nobles (who used their house insignia to amplify it). The only thing they did with the drow that I didn't like was change their infravision to darkvision.  I think it far more likely, physiologically, for drow and other creatures to see into the infrared spectrum, rather than somehow see with light that is visible only to them as some sort of magical genetic feature. Even more important, though, is that it contradicts all the books. Heck, what did they do with Narbondel? Is it now enchanted with "normal" light?
I guess they thought that the mention of the infrared spectrum was too scientific or something. Jeez. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2003 : 20:21:33
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| Yeah,sounds as though someone should have better notes prepared before making changes to make sure it is compatible with the old.Like you said,BookWyrm,"What did they do with Narbondel,Is it now enchanted with normal light?" Come on people, this isn't software that has to be tested,Its black and white. |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2003 : 16:12:17
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| About the levitation issue, the average drow never had that ability. Either you would have to have a house insignia(which would grant you the ability) or be a powerful noble. Both of those avenues are still open in 3e, with the drow house insignia item and the Highborn Drow feat(which is for noble drow, and gives them back their noble powers.). |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2003 : 17:41:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
About the levitation issue, the average drow never had that ability. Either you would have to have a house insignia(which would grant you the ability) or be a powerful noble. Both of those avenues are still open in 3e, with the drow house insignia item and the Highborn Drow feat(which is for noble drow, and gives them back their noble powers.).
I agree with you,but what about the ,"Infravision to darkvision"
change that Bookwyrm brought up?!! How feel ye? |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2003 : 19:47:26
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| I do miss infravision, and there doesn't seem to be anything coming up to replace it. Certain tomes have powders and the like that glow to darkvision, but nothing to truly replace it. Losing infravision and a few other drow changes have simply been ignored. Narbondel has simply been non-existant. Unfortunately, the loss of infravision has screwed over drow sign, as it isn't just hand movements, it's the traces left behind from the hand movements and finger movements on rocks. I'd be a fan to return infravision to the drow, as it's part of what makes them so interesting. WotC completely ignored the changes. The only person who paid any attention to them was Elaine Cunningham in Windwalker. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2003 : 22:25:16
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Ok 2 things,
First Arivia, The Windwalker... Is that Before or after Tangled Webs?
Second, Indeed, The Drow without Infravision is like... well The Underdark without Great and Glorious Lolth!!!... (Note Dramatic hinting so far, I.E. Drow no longer have Infravision, and Lolth is Silent=?)
It's too bad really since I always like Xzar's Little speech: "I wanted Infravision Like the Elves, but Tis more than Just Taking Their EYES!!!"
I Know this is true... I've Tried |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2003 : 23:00:36
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I am not Arivia,Cardinal but the books are.
(1)Daughter of the Drow
(2)Tangled Webs
(3)Windwalker
Dark vision is what the have been given instead of Infravision,I could understand on some races,but the Drow!?
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Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2003 : 23:30:15
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Cardinal why not download The FR Bibliography is has everything listed and I use mine to keep track of what I have and what I need.
The joy of being in such a Grand Library as Candlekeep. |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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Edited by - William of Waterdeep on 01 Nov 2003 23:30:38 |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 23:17:43
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Thnx Will, that's helps out alot... OOOHHH!!! I gotta find that book! I need it. I'm dyin to find out what happens! It is a continuation of Fydor and Liriel right? PLEASE!!!!
I hope so....
Blast... Now I need to make another trek to get another book... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 23:38:59
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| No problem Cardinal,glad I could help. |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 23:44:20
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| Yes, it is, Cardinal. Yes, it's very good. And yes, it wraps up all the leftover plot hooks from the first two. It's out in hardcover now, and will be out in paperback in April 2004. |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2003 : 14:39:53
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| Yes your all right. BUT NOW, all drow have farie fire, Dacning light and some other god damn spell like ability that they changed. 1st ed was the same way as second. All they did to 2nd was change very small things here and there. He did that to f. over his wife. Bet she is not a happy camper. Anyway. Yes. They took away the drow levetation. Which guess what? Is soemthing that noble housed drow could do. Now they cant even do that in 3.5. They can blind themselves with fricking dancing lights though. |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2003 : 21:04:24
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| I love playing Elves, and I love playing Dark Elves. But I stopped playing Dark Elves because they are the common munchkin race. However I love when people play dark elves for the proper roleplaying reasons. At the live action roleplaying game I do (LAIRE) there are two people that play incredible dark elves. They do not let their costuming fall to the standard they have set at all. They where black makeup on every exposed skin surface, and the girl, who walks around with a cutoff top, has black spandex over her navel. They use white hair spray, and in the summer when it is too hot, they make sure any expsoed skin surface has black makeup; EVEN THE ARMPITS. I respect them playing dark elves there becasue they are doing such a good job. IN the live action, the Drow are VERY POWERFUL. But here is the balance. YO uahve to spend an hour doing your makeup every morning. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2003 : 00:22:45
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Sounds almost as bad as puting on hobbit-feet.
Do they use those ridiculous-looking foot-long ears? Or the more natural-looking shorter ones? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2003 : 01:34:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Sounds almost as bad as puting on hobbit-feet.
Do they use those ridiculous-looking foot-long ears? Or the more natural-looking shorter ones?
I don't know where the foot long ears thing came from in the fantasy genre, actually I do know. I think it comes from Poison Elves and Lodoss wars. Those ears look so stoopid I can never take a character with them seriously. The foot long ears are not allowed in LAIRE, if you are playing an elf, darkelf, beastman, or anything of the sort. THe ears allowed are the standard SPOCK ears. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2003 : 21:08:20
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| Good. Of course, those still look fake, even before the LotR's one-use wax-melted versions. But so much better than what is shown in the PHB. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Munchkinism, Can The Sages Find a Cure?
