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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 13:15:22
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| Hmm. I have problem with him being a god at all. I'm quite happy to have him as lord of hell etc, but godhood? To be a 'greater' god I thought you had to have dominion over something important ie-death. A bit sad if you ask me. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8055 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 13:37:21
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| A necessary concession to explain the fact that after so many aeons the "real" gods haven't managed to eradicate him, or even diminish him (and the power of evil he represents) in any great measure. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 15:19:23
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Yes
The only thing that is required is that the developments surrounding Mystra's return be impervious to semantic degradation. Semantic arguments and poor language skills are at the heart of nearly all lore 'debates'.
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Do you scribes think there's a way to manage the return of Mystra that satisfies the story demands set up by her most recent death, the bulk of the lore that preceded the Spellplague, and the changes in the world wrought by the Spellplague and the conjunction that returned portions of Abeir to the world?
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Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 08 Feb 2011 15:34:33 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 18:02:06
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Feel free to PM me your ideas as well, Sage and Wooly. Between the three of us (and maybe George and Gray) we could probably stitch-together the ultimate (fan-friendly) patch.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My own thoughts are based on the newly-introduced Roll of shadow years (or whatever it is called), which appears to me to have been a built-in reset device for 4e... just in case.
The Black Chronology was, so far as I can tell, intro'ed in those last 3 supermodules... Along with "a coming weakness of Shar" that was foreseen by the Dark Diviners. I expected to be expanded upon, instead of ignored, in 4E. I even created a thread about it, back when we didn't know much about what was coming.
Here's that thread:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10250
The thing I noted about it is that it starts with the ToT, which makes me think that there was no more before that, which further leads to me thinking of it as a divergent path of prophesy that Shar steered Toril down.
This means that we didn't really get a series of RSE's - what we got was one MEGA-RSE that started with the theft of the Tablets of Fate and ended with the Spellplague. Nearly every major event that occurred between that time was somehow influenced by Shar.
I know some of you do not like the all-evasiveness of 'shadow-stuff', but it would be the easiest fix, and it appears to have been setup that way. At some point, Shar was able to see the divergent path of prophesy and manipulated people and gods to achieve her goals.
All that needs to be done is create a plausible storyline in which heroes and gods are able to 'correct' time. I personally would prefer for it to be retroactive; a reboot in which only a few people are aware of the true history.
In fact, now that I think about it, something like this may have occurred at least one time in the past. What if the Dawn Cataclysm was the last reset? That would explain some of the continuity snafus. I once discussed something similar on the WotC boards in regards to the sundering, which "reached backwards and forwards in time". The idea was that there were two histories, and when the elves cast their ritual they created a divergent timeline.
What if Abeir isn't just the lost half of Toril? What if Abeir represents that 'other timeline' which was cut short when the sundering ritual was cast? 
Perhaps Abeir is the way the world would have been, had the Elves not tinkered with Realmspace, and somehow managed to merge parts of Toril with the Feywild (which is precisely what occurred, when they created Evermeet). It could also explain why parts of Abeir swap with parts of Toril occasionally - each reboot restores (or changes) parts of the world to what might have been.
There is an excellent Voyager storyline in which something like this occurs: A race that uses time-based weaponry eliminate enemies by erasing parts of their past, which greatly effects their future. In that episode, things like uniforms and ship-design are constantly shifting every time the enemy uses its weapons. The basis of the plot is that they once used their weapons to destroy their nemesis, but the part of history that was altered also erased 3/4 of their own empire, and they have been trying to alter other pieces of history to get it back (and destroying many others in the process). It was a very intriguing story.
Anyhow, this is how I am picturing FR's history going. It was severely altered when the world was Sundered (twice, but the second ritual tapped-into the first), much like when that race altered their own history in that episode of ST. This created two timelines, but unlike what happened in Voyager, the 'correct' timeline was partially 'archived' in a physical manifestation which became Abeir (I actually think its more like some of it was split between the two worlds). In that way, things like the Dawn Cataclysm and the Shadow Roll are ways in which the timeline can be 'nudged' around (similarly how the weaponry worked in that ST episode).
Just a theory, of course, but an interesting way to correct any continuity glitches in the setting.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2011 06:30:12 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 18:15:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This means that we didn't really get a series of RSE's - what we got was one MEGA-RSE that started with the theft of the Tablets of Fate and ended with the Spellplague. Nearly every major event that occurred between that time was somehow influenced by Shar.
I don't know how well Shar could be tied to all of them (heck, I'm not even sure what all the RSEs are as defined by the fan community), but this bit ties in to the History section at pages 41-43 of the current Campaign Guide, which lists the Days of Thunder, Dawn Ages, Crown Wars, etc as epochs, and ends the list with the Era of Upheaval, dated 1358 to Present.
The rest of your post is very interesting, and possibly workable if intimidatingly complex (intimidating to me, anyway). I wonder, though, if there's a way to keep everything canon, if you know what I mean--that is, not erase certain events (or even whole decades) and still keep things rational and more or less self-consistent. Maybe not, but I personally think it's a worthy goal.
Cheers,
Christopher
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Edited by - Christopher_Rowe on 08 Feb 2011 18:18:27 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8055 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 19:53:16
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Agreed with CR, the "fortunately it was just a dream/nightmare and never happened" deus ex is a cheap hack.
Though I largely agree with you Markus, and I share some of your feelings about certain RSEs ... but there must be a better way which doesn't invalidate years of lore and invalidate what the authors created. Anything less is butchery of the sort people decry when RSEs first appear. |
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Brix
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 19:55:08
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| Isn't there a RPGA Adventure that deals with a weak incarnation of Mystra hidden somewhere at Candlekeep, nurrished by priests? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8055 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 20:25:12
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| Well, Mystra hiding under a bed somewhere in Candlekeep would explain why so many scribes appear to disappear for extended periods ... |
[/Ayrik] |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 20:25:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Brix
Isn't there a RPGA Adventure that deals with a weak incarnation of Mystra hidden somewhere at Candlekeep, nurrished by priests?
Huh. Do you know the name of it? Or which region it was set in, maybe?
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Brix
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 20:30:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
quote:
Originally posted by Brix
Isn't there a RPGA Adventure that deals with a weak incarnation of Mystra hidden somewhere at Candlekeep, nurrished by priests?
Huh. Do you know the name of it? Or which region it was set in, maybe?
I really can't remember. I had a scroll here that dealt with ressurection of Mystra. Someone mentioned he ran the module at a convention. Maybe one of the James brothers? |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 20:59:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Brix
I really can't remember. I had a scroll here that dealt with ressurection of Mystra. Someone mentioned he ran the module at a convention. Maybe one of the James brothers?
Think I found the scroll, but couldn't find a post that read like that. I'll keep digging though.
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Brix
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 22:46:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
quote:
Originally posted by Brix
I really can't remember. I had a scroll here that dealt with ressurection of Mystra. Someone mentioned he ran the module at a convention. Maybe one of the James brothers?
Think I found the scroll, but couldn't find a post that read like that. I'll keep digging though.
I couldn't find it as well, but I'm sure it was Matt, maybe over at his website |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 23:17:33
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| I had visited the idea of writing a non-canonical adventure regarding it, but nothing that would ever be considered official. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 23:25:06
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As to my idea, it was a bit of a throwback to this fine website. My intent was to say that in the deepest, most protected halls within Candlekeep, the scribes within maintained and nurtured an intact piece of the weave (and in turn, Mystra). Despite all that was crumbling around them and their way of life, they cared for and helped to bring back to health the Weave-- albeit in a new form. Nothing would be the same, but they managed to save the essence of the weave and thus prevent a complete collapse of their world.
You see, I wanted to parallel the concern and dedication of this website and have it translate to the game. I have far from finished it--let alone perfect it. |
Edited by - Matt James on 08 Feb 2011 23:25:48 |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 23:44:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Do you scribes think there's a way to manage the return of Mystra that satisfies the story demands set up by her most recent death, the bulk of the lore that preceded the Spellplague, and the changes in the world wrought by the Spellplague and the conjunction that returned portions of Abeir to the world?
Christopher, I would like to add that not only is it possible to manage Mystra's return in a way that satisfies the goals you outline above, but it would be easy to do.
FR is a fantasy campaign setting. Anything will work.
(I think Greenwood is working on this now, if EMD! is of any consequence.)
However, nothing will please all the fans who frequent these halls. I am of the opinion that many of these fans are as, or more, invested in their own interpretation of the Realms than the canon version of the Realms.
Some scribes feel that the canon Realms have irreconcilable errors.
Some scribes at Candlekeep refuse to agree on basic definitions of words in English.
Others feel that the setting is in some way 'damaged' by the work of authors and developers that they don't like, and frequently denigrate those individuals.
There are many who frequent these halls who categorically reject everything that great developers like you have done in the past 2 1/2 years...
(And now Hasbro is reporting a nearly 20% drop in Q4 earnings... unrelated, I'm sure, but still...)
So I'm sure whatever Greenwood does will be well received by a majority here. (But not all.)
Regardless, the idea that a significant 'overhaul' is required to bring the One True Spell back to (prominence in?) Faerun is, in my opinion, a direct slap-in-the-face to a great many who have contributed to this awesome, 25 year old sandbox.
(Yeah, yeah... Greenwood's Realms pre-date the OGB...) |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 23:45:43
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The allusion was apparent before the clarification, Matt.
You rock, btw.
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
As to my idea, it was a bit of a throwback to this fine website. My intent was to say that in the deepest, most protected halls within Candlekeep, the scribes within maintained and nurtured an intact piece of the weave (and in turn, Mystra). Despite all that was crumbling around them and their way of life, they cared for and helped to bring back to health the Weave-- albeit in a new form. Nothing would be the same, but they managed to save the essence of the weave and thus prevent a complete collapse of their world.
You see, I wanted to parallel the concern and dedication of this website and have it translate to the game. I have far from finished it--let alone perfect it.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4494 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 04:00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
You rock, btw.
QFT!  |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8055 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 04:16:12
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| Quantum Field Theory? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 04:34:30
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NO. It's QuantiFERON-TB. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8055 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 04:51:03
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| I barely understand quantum mechanics and don't have the slightest clue what a qualitative interferon-gamma might be. If Diffy's talkin' about quick fourier transforms then I'm good to go, I can do FFTs in my sleep (and, sadly, have actually done so during exam-cramming week). |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8055 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 05:03:11
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| Ah. Yes, that makes sense. Stupid internet failed to provide instant and accurate response to my query. Imagine that. |
[/Ayrik] |
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D-brane
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 05:08:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
However, nothing will please all the fans who frequent these halls. I am of the opinion that many of these fans are as, or more, invested in their own interpretation of the Realms than the canon version of the Realms.
Can you actually provide evidence of this assumption? Because I've been here at Candlekeep for nearly 7 years, and I can say with a fair degree of confidence that I've encountered just as many scribes who are fervently adherent to the canon Realms, as there are those who focus entirely on their own work for the setting.
quote:
Some scribes at Candlekeep refuse to agree on basic definitions of words in English.
Okay, are you just being intentionally provocative here, or do you sincerely believe this?
quote:
There are many who frequent these halls who categorically reject everything that great developers like you have done in the past 2 1/2 years...
Again, I'm going to have to ask for evidence . . . because just about every scribe I've talked to about the 4E Realms, has said there are some parts they like and some parts they don't. That doesn't really sound like they "categorically reject everything that great developers like you have done in the past 2 1/2 years..." So I have to assume you're just trying to deliberately set out to cause conflict here, by spouting assumptions as facts, or you're simply mistaken in your assumptions.
Either way, some of your prior comments in both this and other threads recently, are really making me think you've got some axe to grind at Candlekeep. Now I'm no moderator, but we really don't need your type here! |
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 06:49:06
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Weather I personally think anything is 'broken' matters not.
What matters is weather the current iteration of the realms is lucrative. If so, ignore most of us here, but if not, then perhaps listening to us wouldn't be such a bad idea.
And I truly doubt the teeny, tiny 'pie slice' that is D&D in Hasbro's massive pie could possibly do 20%... I doubt all of WotC (with MtG and Pokemon) tanking could account for that - its the recession. Everyone is suffering, and the first thing hit in tough times are non-essentials (and toys/games sit near the top of that list).
Anyhow, I am sure nearly everyone here who runs/plays D&D (not just fans of the setting) run their own versions of FR, but I am just as sure most of us aware of (and respectful of) the canon lore, regardless of weather we use it or not. what most of us do here is try to discover new ways to use the lore, twisting and bending it in odd directions no one has thought of yet.
It doesn't mean we don't like the canon or don't know it just because we may not use all of it in our own interpretations. Part of the fun of this site is bouncing ideas off of each other. Most of the theories we throw around are purely 'what if' type mental exercises (as in, "how can we make this work without breaking canon?").
I'll never use 98% of the stuff I discuss here, but its fun to think about.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2011 06:51:29 |
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Brix
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 09:14:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I have far from finished it--let alone perfect it.
You must hurry, before even the small rest collapses |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 09:46:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Ah. Yes, that makes sense. Stupid internet failed to provide instant and accurate response to my query. Imagine that.
Really? When you search in google, the very first result you'd see is QUOTED FOR TRUTH.
I was just joking about QuantiFERON-TB.
Back to topic: When Mystra 3.0 finally regains everything she's lost, will she resurrect those Chosen who died during and after the SP, or will she make new ones? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 09 Feb 2011 09:47:58 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 11:40:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Ah. Yes, that makes sense. Stupid internet failed to provide instant and accurate response to my query. Imagine that.
Really? When you search in google, the very first result you'd see is QUOTED FOR TRUTH.
I was just joking about QuantiFERON-TB.
Back to topic: When Mystra 3.0 finally regains everything she's lost, will she resurrect those Chosen who died during and after the SP, or will she make new ones?
I got "Quite F'N True" somewhere
Anyways, Mystra will simply return as an exarch of Karsus (if my theory about Karsus is correct).
More likely she will come back as some form of essence with a divine spark, but not quite a deity. Perhaps as some form of guide for Elminster. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 11:41:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Ah. Yes, that makes sense. Stupid internet failed to provide instant and accurate response to my query. Imagine that.
Really? When you search in google, the very first result you'd see is QUOTED FOR TRUTH.
I was just joking about QuantiFERON-TB.
Back to topic: When Mystra 3.0 finally regains everything she's lost, will she resurrect those Chosen who died during and after the SP, or will she make new ones?
I got "Quite F'N True" somewhere
Anyways, Mystra will simply return as an exarch of Karsus (if my theory about Karsus is correct).
More likely she will come back as some form of essence with a divine spark, but not quite a deity. Perhaps as some form of guide for Elminster. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36993 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 11:42:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Ah. Yes, that makes sense. Stupid internet failed to provide instant and accurate response to my query. Imagine that.
Really? When you search in google, the very first result you'd see is QUOTED FOR TRUTH.
I was just joking about QuantiFERON-TB.
Back to topic: When Mystra 3.0 finally regains everything she's lost, will she resurrect those Chosen who died during and after the SP, or will she make new ones?
I would imagine she'd make new ones. With the exception of the Srinshee (who is very much an exception!), I don't know of any Chosen that have returned from death. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8055 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 13:31:15
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| There's no reason for Mystra to reinstall dead Chosens into the Realms when she can easily take them to Dweomerheart (or wherever) to serve as her eternal servants. They might enjoy some special status or power, as do Lolth's Handmaidens and other beings. The most favoured Chosen might be divinely ascended to some lesser station (by Mystra and/or her church), they might even become as powerful as Azuth. They might be able to walk Toril again (when on missions and stuff), but not as normal living people. Such are my thoughts on this noble question. |
[/Ayrik] |
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A question I posed to Ed a little while back
