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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 21:06:28
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This is a question I posed to Ed a little while back. While I await the answer I thought I might open up discussion with the scribes here to get their opinion on it; always nice to get as many view points as possible.
From the ending of Elmister Must Die, we have a strong suggestion that Mystra's on the way back.
Now, it is established if not universally accepted that during the Spellplague, Asmodeus killed Azuth, Mystra's servant, in order to ascend to godhood.
It is my understanding,via wikipedia so I could be completely wrong, that Mystra left about half of her power contained in Azuth and her Chosen.
So. What would Mystra's return mean for Asmodeus' divinity, and what steps would Asmodeus take to stop it were he to find out?
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"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 21:17:49
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| When Bane came back he was able to snatch back tyranny, wasn't he? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 21:57:11
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In Elminster in Hell, it was made clear that Mystra could not confront Asmodeus in his own realm.
Therefor, I think Mystra would be hard-pressed to confront a now more-powerful Asmodeus, unless she somehow tricked him into leaving his realm (and tricking a god of duplicity would be one hell of a challenge... literally).
However, if it does happen, I am certain we will get NO explanation, and Mystra will be at full-power without even addressing previous, conflicting lore.
Personally, I am not looking forward to it, just because it makes the entire spellplague a pointless exercise in deconstruction. As much as I disliked much of what has happened, I think I would feel really betrayed if they back-peddled. Either move-forward, or reset the whole thing to circa 1e era, but bringing back Mystra will NOT address 95% of the mistakes that have been made (like bringing back all those story-lines we never saw finished).
Not a rant... I saw this coming (as did many others)... it's just all so... predictable...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Feb 2011 22:00:00 |
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Tamsar
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
141 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 22:49:13
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| Scene: Misty Bathroom. The steam clears, and Ao steps from the shower. It was all just a dream!!! Bobby is alive! err I mean Mystra err I;m not sure, all back to Southfork, I mean Shadowdale. |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 23:23:09
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What's Family Guy?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 23:30:24
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Do you scribes think there's a way to manage the return of Mystra that satisfies the story demands set up by her most recent death, the bulk of the lore that preceded the Spellplague, and the changes in the world wrought by the Spellplague and the conjunction that returned portions of Abeir to the world?
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 23:47:57
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| So is Asmodeus the sole god of magic? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 23:49:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Do you scribes think there's a way to manage the return of Mystra that satisfies the story demands set up by her most recent death, the bulk of the lore that preceded the Spellplague, and the changes in the world wrought by the Spellplague and the conjunction that returned portions of Abeir to the world?
YES.
It would require a LOT of research to make sure EVERYTHING works, and everything is explained, and that the less-sensical events are re-examined and re-explained in such a way that we have an "OH... that's why yadda yadda yadda..." moment.
I want to smile and realize they had a plan all along. That is still possible. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Feb 2011 23:51:11 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 00:21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Do you scribes think there's a way to manage the return of Mystra that satisfies the story demands set up by her most recent death, the bulk of the lore that preceded the Spellplague, and the changes in the world wrought by the Spellplague and the conjunction that returned portions of Abeir to the world?
I, ultimately, think that has to do with which direction Ed will take Mystra in.
Personally, I'm curious about the possibility that a return of Mystra wouldn't automatically see her return to Greater God status. Rather, I'm intrigued that a slightly de-powered Mystra, as former Mistress of the Weave, would spend years -- or even centuries -- clawing her way back. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 01:34:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Do you scribes think there's a way to manage the return of Mystra that satisfies the story demands set up by her most recent death, the bulk of the lore that preceded the Spellplague, and the changes in the world wrought by the Spellplague and the conjunction that returned portions of Abeir to the world?
The outline I've been fiddling with -- the one that brings Mystra back shortly after her death, and without the catastrophic effects seen in canon -- could be fairly readily modified to bring her back. And it draws on prior lore, including one mostly forgotten about but still intriguing tidbit... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 01:39:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Do you scribes think there's a way to manage the return of Mystra that satisfies the story demands set up by her most recent death, the bulk of the lore that preceded the Spellplague, and the changes in the world wrought by the Spellplague and the conjunction that returned portions of Abeir to the world?
I, ultimately, think that has to do with which direction Ed will take Mystra in.
Personally, I'm curious about the possibility that a return of Mystra wouldn't automatically see her return to Greater God status. Rather, I'm intrigued that a slightly de-powered Mystra, as former Mistress of the Weave, would spend years -- or even centuries -- clawing her way back.
I might like that, as it has never been done before (to her, at least). |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 02:09:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Do you scribes think there's a way to manage the return of Mystra that satisfies the story demands set up by her most recent death, the bulk of the lore that preceded the Spellplague, and the changes in the world wrought by the Spellplague and the conjunction that returned portions of Abeir to the world?
I, ultimately, think that has to do with which direction Ed will take Mystra in.
Personally, I'm curious about the possibility that a return of Mystra wouldn't automatically see her return to Greater God status. Rather, I'm intrigued that a slightly de-powered Mystra, as former Mistress of the Weave, would spend years -- or even centuries -- clawing her way back.
I might like that, as it has never been done before (to her, at least).
It's actually a twist on the tidbit Wooly just hinted at above. I've spin it around in a completely different way, combined it with something Ed said about Mystra 1.0's early days as the Goddess of Mysteries, and then added a few thoughts I had while re-reading the relevant sections of Elminster Must Die. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 02:25:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Okay, Wooly- don't leave us hanging like that! What did you have in mind?
I really need to scribble it all down sometime... I think I'll present it to Sage, first, and after getting his input, present the outline here. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 02:40:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Do you scribes think there's a way to manage the return of Mystra that satisfies the story demands set up by her most recent death, the bulk of the lore that preceded the Spellplague, and the changes in the world wrought by the Spellplague and the conjunction that returned portions of Abeir to the world?
I, ultimately, think that has to do with which direction Ed will take Mystra in.
Personally, I'm curious about the possibility that a return of Mystra wouldn't automatically see her return to Greater God status. Rather, I'm intrigued that a slightly de-powered Mystra, as former Mistress of the Weave, would spend years -- or even centuries -- clawing her way back.
I might like that, as it has never been done before (to her, at least).
It's actually a twist on the tidbit Wooly just hinted at above. I've spin it around in a completely different way, combined it with something Ed said about Mystra 1.0's early days as the Goddess of Mysteries, and then added a few thoughts I had while re-reading the relevant sections of Elminster Must Die.
Will she use another mortal "vessel," like what she did to Midnight? Amarune is the likely candidate, if ever. Elminster seems to prepare her for such purpose---riding her mind as he deems necessary. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 02:42:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Do you scribes think there's a way to manage the return of Mystra that satisfies the story demands set up by her most recent death, the bulk of the lore that preceded the Spellplague, and the changes in the world wrought by the Spellplague and the conjunction that returned portions of Abeir to the world?
I, ultimately, think that has to do with which direction Ed will take Mystra in.
Personally, I'm curious about the possibility that a return of Mystra wouldn't automatically see her return to Greater God status. Rather, I'm intrigued that a slightly de-powered Mystra, as former Mistress of the Weave, would spend years -- or even centuries -- clawing her way back.
I'm pretty convinced that she will come back and reestablish the Weave. But I do not think that they will be going back to the old magic system. I think that there will be people who worship Mystra and use the Weave and there will be those who prefer to harness raw magic. My thoughts on how it will play out are like this. She comes back but due to the immense amount of enmity and distrust towards magic she is only worshipped enough to be a lesser goddess at best. Her clergy will be tasked with spreading the good word of useful magic, bringing the raw magic users back to the Weave, and fighting destructive magic use.
Well, I'm at least hoping this is how it pans out. |
Edited by - Caolin on 08 Feb 2011 02:44:03 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 03:12:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Will she use another mortal "vessel," like what she did to Midnight? Amarune is the likely candidate, if ever. Elminster seems to prepare her for such purpose---riding her mind as he deems necessary.
I tinkered with an early interpretation that focused a little on something like that. But then felt that it wasn't really all that original to have the new Mystra follow such a course. I wanted my new interpretation to reflect the new reality created by the Spellplague, and while not entirely divorcing it from what had come from previous lore, I wanted my new Mystra-theory to act as a short of bridge between the pre- and post-Spellplague stuff -- complementing and building on the best of what both eras have to offer. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 08 Feb 2011 03:13:57 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 03:34:33
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Heh. Some of the thinking I'm reading in these last ten or so posts is VERY interesting. Even more interesting was seeing Ed's rather twinkling smile when I handed him the printed-out posts (yes, we met in the flesh - - steady, there, lecherous scribes, I don't mean THAT - - just a few minutes ago).
All he said was: "Well, everyone's just going to have to wait and see. Please tell The Sage and Wooly Rupert that I'm VERY interested in what they come up with, and look forward to seeing it. Markustay and Caolin, duly noted, and Dennis: ah, you noticed. Let's see what else you and others noticed, in what's said and what's hinted, in ELMINSTER MUST DIE!"
So . . . there you have it. For now. 
love to all,
THO |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4258 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 04:09:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Heh. Some of the thinking I'm reading in these last ten or so posts is VERY interesting. Even more interesting was seeing Ed's rather twinkling smile when I handed him the printed-out posts (yes, we met in the flesh - - steady, there, lecherous scribes, I don't mean THAT - - just a few minutes ago).
All he said was: "Well, everyone's just going to have to wait and see. Please tell The Sage and Wooly Rupert that I'm VERY interested in what they come up with, and look forward to seeing it. Markustay and Caolin, duly noted, and Dennis: ah, you noticed. Let's see what else you and others noticed, in what's said and what's hinted, in ELMINSTER MUST DIE!"
So . . . there you have it. For now.
love to all,
THO
Sometimes...just sometimes...I tend to wonder... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 04:11:25
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My own thoughts are based on the newly-introduced Roll of shadow years (or whatever it is called), which appears to me to have been a built-in reset device for 4e... just in case.
As a big fan of the prophesy trope (Wot, SoT, The Belgariad, etc...), I would say that we are 'in' a divergent path... which would work, if handled delicately.
As in, no more HEAVY-HANDED RSE's! (note that this does NOT mean no RSE's, period)
It has the potential to alleviate all the current ill-will, while allowing the ruleset to still move forward. POTENTIAL that needs a little TLC (and an Edwardian touch - KNOWING the Realms inside and out is PARAMOUNT).
Of curse, following up with 50 or so new Volo's guides wouldn't hurt, either. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Feb 2011 04:12:50 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 04:17:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Heh. Some of the thinking I'm reading in these last ten or so posts is VERY interesting. Even more interesting was seeing Ed's rather twinkling smile when I handed him the printed-out posts (yes, we met in the flesh - - steady, there, lecherous scribes, I don't mean THAT - - just a few minutes ago).
All he said was: "Well, everyone's just going to have to wait and see. Please tell The Sage and Wooly Rupert that I'm VERY interested in what they come up with, and look forward to seeing it. Markustay and Caolin, duly noted, and Dennis: ah, you noticed. Let's see what else you and others noticed, in what's said and what's hinted, in ELMINSTER MUST DIE!"
So . . . there you have it. For now.
love to all,
THO
Exactly one of the few ---very few but significant---reasons why I still plan to read BURY ELMINSTER DEEP, despite my obvious scruples with its predecessor. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 05:27:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My own thoughts are based on the newly-introduced Roll of shadow years (or whatever it is called), which appears to me to have been a built-in reset device for 4e... just in case.
The Black Chronology was, so far as I can tell, intro'ed in those last 3 supermodules... Along with "a coming weakness of Shar" that was foreseen by the Dark Diviners. I expected to be expanded upon, instead of ignored, in 4E. I even created a thread about it, back when we didn't know much about what was coming.
Here's that thread:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10250 |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 05:40:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Heh. Some of the thinking I'm reading in these last ten or so posts is VERY interesting. Even more interesting was seeing Ed's rather twinkling smile when I handed him the printed-out posts (yes, we met in the flesh - - steady, there, lecherous scribes, I don't mean THAT - - just a few minutes ago).
All he said was: "Well, everyone's just going to have to wait and see. Please tell The Sage and Wooly Rupert that I'm VERY interested in what they come up with, and look forward to seeing it. Markustay and Caolin, duly noted, and Dennis: ah, you noticed. Let's see what else you and others noticed, in what's said and what's hinted, in ELMINSTER MUST DIE!"
So . . . there you have it. For now.
love to all,
THO
I've pinged Sage with the rough outline, so we'll see what he thinks. 
I just want to reiterate the intent on my variant rebirth of Mystra: I wanted to incorporate a couple of the goals of 4E with my own goals. Too many Chosen and a good* goddess of magic? WotC had one way of solving that "issue", I came up with my own. My method drew together various tidbits and thoughts (including inspiration from Spider-Man!), and provides for a new goddess -- without reshaping the setting in the process, or even creating that much of a disaster. My intent was to approach the "issue" with the idea of just dealing with that one issue (and cleaning up a couple others), not using it as a way to reboot the setting with a new OS.
All that said, at least parts of it -- mostly the rebirth part, instead of the death part -- can easily be respun to bring Mystra back at a point later in time than what I was shooting for (I was sticking with 1375ish, instead of jumping ahead in time).
*Oh Holy Mother of Lurue, I hate that misconception! Mystra 2.0 being too good instead of neutral was a plot point in a single novel, and was intro'ed and resolved within that novel. It never had any in-game effect, and almost no in-game mention. And yet so many people point to that as one of the "problems" with Mystra! It is quite irritating to me!  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 05:46:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Please tell The Sage and Wooly Rupert that I'm VERY interested in what they come up with, and look forward to seeing it.
Heh. I'm actually surprised Ed hadn't previously picked up on just what my theory may entail... given one of my dangling questions re: Mystra's possible rebirth, from early last year.
Anyways, I'll cobble together a more coherent timeline of events, and send it along to Ed.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 08 Feb 2011 05:47:03 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 09:28:45
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I don't see any requirement for a power (newly reascendant Mystra) to be restricted to occupying a single mortal shell. Mystra might be "distributed" across any number of individuals, perhaps another goddess-three, perhaps almost something of a divine consortium alternately shifting through different hosts.
Or reincarnated from scratch, possibly emerging from or being influenced by the (alignment-resonant) essence of some outer plane or other. Not necessarily the "same" Mystra as before, possibly a very different individual entirely.
Mystra 3.0 might steal divine power and form from any other god, Faerūnian or otherwise.
It used to be said in older lore that Mystra 1.0 invested her Chosen as receptacles of her divine power. I think it was hinted that she'd cached "shards of power" in all sorts of things, sometimes manifesting as individuals with Spellfire or places and objects of unusual magic. This was all written up before official rules for Chosens had evolved into their published form. Mystra 3.0 might recover some of her power (and self-essence) from these caches ... the consequences for the Chosen themselves might be very unpleasant. They'd probably all suffer from godshatter, at least. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 10:41:45
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It's great to see so many scribes interested (again?) in something I've tried in so many posts!!! (That is: to create a bridge between two edition with such a large gap between them)
Recently I proposed a version of Mystra, mortal and fugitive while trying to regain her lost godhood ... But now that I just finished reading "Elmister must die" new ideas are on their way
As already said elsewhere, I'm looking forward to Wooly's version while waiting for ED's one!
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 11:36:53
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| Maybe it's time for Elminster to retire to godhood! Lol. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 11:40:16
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| This thread is making me eager to see what Ed has in store for us all. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 11:42:24
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| What is Asmodeus god of exactly? |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 12:08:42
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| Anyone? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 12:27:33
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Wikipedia describes D&D Asmodeus well enough.
His power level has been redefined and shuffled around a bit in each D&D edition. 4E Asmodeus is a God of Power, Tyranny, and Domination. This is sort of generic, since his true station as an Archdevil is Master of Nessus (9th and deepest layer) and of all the Nine Hells of Baator; he doesn't really have a proper "divine portfolio" in the same context as powers of the pantheons; he opportunistically absorbs (and apparently twists) divine power from any source he can, not just from little gods of Tyranny/etc. He (like the other Archdevils) also constantly attempts to maintain devil cults and such throughout many worlds to feed his divine stature. He is arguably the most powerful being in the D&D universe, since in theory every baatezu in existence serves him with unquestioning obedience. He is constantly challenged by the power of the other Archdevils, particularly Mephistopheles (who is technically subordinate but quite possibly more powerful). He is most certainly more powerful than any god or being when encountered anywhere in Baator, particularly in his layer.
D&D canon (as I read it) pointedly reinforces the inoffensive notion that Asmodeus is inferior in power to good-aligned celestial gods, without actually stating it baldly. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Feb 2011 12:34:29 |
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A question I posed to Ed a little while back
