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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 00:27:07
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I'm going to have to back Wooly on this one. This debate needs a fresh perspective. It's highly unlikely that opinions on the crucial points brought up so far, will change. So maybe we should all try tackling this from a different point-of-view, eh?  |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 02:11:00
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Why not just decide in your own universe in the realms
and then explain why you chose it.
Trying to convince someone black is white when they
think its red just gets everybody frustrated.
And besides, this is a GAME!!! Why go this deep in the
philosophical mystries of it? Most games shouldn't
have IMHO this level of...... philosophy in it.
Better to mull over the philosophies of the RW. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 04:57:37
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I can agree to disagree, but what would be the point of continuing the discussion, in that case? No one can really seem to come to a consensus, obviously, but there is still merit in giving reasons for one's opinions either way. Personally, I think that the ones on the other side of the field are trying too hard to judge gods by a standard of HUMAN morality, and from a RW viewpoint, at that. You can't do that for two big reasons- one, they're GODS, who by their very nature are ABOVE human judgment. (C'mon, that's like an ANT trying to judge US for drowning their nest) The second is that it's a fictional cosmology, which is nothing like religion in the RW (except for some superficial details). So it's wrong to assume that they don't have that right or authority, because obviously, they do. THAT'S canon, too, as so many are fond of pointing out.
And children?! Come on, seriously? One does not "judge" a child who is below the age of accountability even in the real world, so why would that be the case in Faerun? Nowhere that I'm aware of does it say anything about infants being stuffed into the wall for lack of a patron. They CAN"T choose, so there has to be some means to sort out the younglings who die before they get the chance to make such a choice. That means either reincarnation, or going to their parents' patron, or the patron of a family member, godparent, or whoever was responsible for the child.
I can understand that some might believe it's an infringement on free will, but considering how many different gods there are, a mortal would almost certainly find ONE they can relate to and respect. And yes, I'm certainly familiar with Ao, but I'm sure even he has a few worshipers running around. He just doesn't advertise because he doesn't have to. Again, the creator races themselves were in turn created by a god or something of the sort. They did not just spontaneously appear. SOMETHING had to come first, whether it's Ao or one of the "old" gods like Shar and Sylune.
As a minor side-note, I'd also like to add that free choice has NOTHING to do with how one is raised or one's culture. It's a very personal thing. As an example- (and this is from personal experience, mind you) an intelligent and relatively small child is raised in an abusive home, where he/she endures constant criticism, violence, and even sexual misconduct, and suffers through this for many years without anyone outside the family knowing about it. Over time, that child comes to resent/hate the one doing it, and even considers retaliating in various ways, such as taking a knife to the responsible party, say, when they are asleep. But the child never does this, nor does he/she choose to out the person, but instead bears it alone, and becomes stronger for it, when they could have just as easily taken a road that would have ended it permanently, but didn't. Or, say a child grows up in a particular faith, but does not believe in that faith, even though it's what they've been taught all their life. Then that person eventually finds a different one, even though the rest of the family either does not know, or disapproves of the new faith. This is free will. In both cases, the person made a choice that had nothing to do with how they were raised, but came from their own individual personality. Note that in the first case, it may have nothing to do with the cultural morals of the child, but a personal set of standards that simply felt it would degrade them to the level of the one who was doing the abusing..... (I actually know someone like this, and I can tell you that they only refrained from the above actions because they felt it would have hurt another person, NOT because it was illegal or morally "wrong".)
I'm also wondering how the analogy of a hostage fits this discussion. Seriously?! If that was the case, it would be like the hostage offing himself to deny the hostage-taker any benefit. Which is, um, kind of dumb, IMHO. You don't deny the kidnapper by shooting yourself, it would be pointless. And gods are not actually the ones doing the stuffing into the Wall. They've got better things to do. I think there are designated fiends or something to do this, or it just happens automatically, but I don't have the relevant books handy ATM.
I remembered something in the Planescape Sigil and Beyond book, which says that ideas and beliefs have power on the planes, and that people who subscribe to a power's beliefs can expand it's realm (And especially on the Planes, if people follow a certain deity, they can even cause an area to drift into that power's realm from elsewhere on the planes). What I get from this is that belief can literally move mountains in planar terms.
Edit: Gremlins are loose again. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 12 Feb 2011 05:03:49 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 09:52:46
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My take on the wall:
1) It is a fact of the cosmos, it exists, so, right or wrong, it is something people have to deal with. At least if they do not give worship to a deity.
2) 99.99% of folks on Toril, however, will not have to worry about this, because they KNOW gods are real. They have tangible evidence of it. They find it convenient, useful and advisable to pick at least one god to worship, and so they will have an afterlife to go to and the Wall is not an option for them.
3) The people who choose not to worship a god do so either willingly, or with reckless disregard for the peril of their soul.
4) If you choose not to worship a god, knowing the score, then there is no injustice. They get the afterlife they bargain for, knowing the consequences. Or they pay the price for their indecision.
5) The fate is not particularly worse than that suffered by some people who worship gods. A large portion of folks who worship gods end up with pretty pathetic afterlives: getting eaten by your god, tortured for eternity, forced to debase yourself in a gruesome form, fighting in wars, having to tempt and torture others, or just enduring a meaningless and boring existence forever. Some might think the people in the wall have it pretty good.
6) The Wall is a pretty neutral fate. It is boring, yes. But you can sleep it off. Talk to the "bricks" next to you. And eventually the moss that serves as the mortar of the wall will dissolve you completely and send you beyond to a further mystery. The "sentence" has a definite end. It is only temporary.
7) Some people speculate that the dissolution frees your soul up to be reincarnated and have another shot at a mortal life. Possibly so that you get another chance to choose a patron.
8) Some folks think that the energy of your soul, once dissolved, is absorbed by the Fugue Plane or Kelemvor and feeds into the energy needed to support the plane or to fuel Kelemvor's divine existence.
9) Ultimately Toril's is a cosmos that is created by the gods for the gods and of course it is geared to serve their interests. The gods don't owe you an afterlife. An afterlife is a "commodity" that has to be earned by worship. Failing to pay the price and invest in your afterlife by giving up some mortal worship will get you nowhere. Literally. There ain't know such thing as a free afterlife.
10) There is some question as to whether a petitioner body requires some kind of divine spark to animate it in the afterlife. It may be that without the support of a deity to infuse your soul with divine power in the afterlife, your soul may just run out of energy to power and animate the petitioner body. It has no animating spark. Perhaps then, the petitioner winds down, runs out of fuel, the longer it wanders the Fugue Plane without being collected by a god. If that is the case, Kelemvor would end up with a lot of statues littering up the place, like lots wife. Or that ward of coma patients in that movie Awakenings. If that is true, then he probably just throws people on the Wall to keep the place clean and obstacle free. He's got to do something with the bodies. The Wall is as good a place as any. At least it is not some furnace or pit.
11) The Wall serves one vital function in that it protects the city of judgement from raiding demons. Who usually grab a few of the petitioner bodies in their raids and run off with them without getting into the city. The Wall helps fend off raiding demon attacks, and serves also as a decoy, a consolation prize, providing something to go home with for the otherwise empty-handed demons who fail in their raids. They can tote off the bodies from the Wall back to the Abyss and from there the kidnapped souls are turned into larva or manes and can work their way up the chain, with the potential to promotion to higher demon-hood.
12) Kelemvor may not even particularly relish passing judgement on the fate of such creatures. But it was that way before he came to power, and he is required to carry it out because it is in his job description. No need to condemn him for that. He's just doing his job in accordance with the tablets of fate, or divine decree, or subject to the will of Ao. It is not evil to faithfully execute the duties of your position. Of course, some people might disagree.
13) Lastly, to come full circle, the Wall is a feature of the cosmos, it is a fact of nature. There's no point in arguing with it, it is what it is. It's like arguing that floods and hurricanes are unfair. Attributing volcanoes and floods and plagues to the whims of a cruel god. But of course, it is in the end a completely neutral fate. It is not "trying" to get you. It is simply what happens to those who won't pay the price of a ticket for admission to an afterlife of their choosing.
In the immortal words of Neil Peart: if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 14:18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I can agree to disagree, but what would be the point of continuing the discussion, in that case? No one can really seem to come to a consensus, obviously, but there is still merit in giving reasons for one's opinions either way.
I agree. I'm just tired of seeing the same people giving the same opinions over and over. That's where it ceases to be a discussion. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 15:15:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I can agree to disagree, but what would be the point of continuing the discussion, in that case? No one can really seem to come to a consensus, obviously, but there is still merit in giving reasons for one's opinions either way.
I agree. I'm just tired of seeing the same people giving the same opinions over and over. That's where it ceases to be a discussion.
I get it. Message received loud and clear: no disagreements with the opinions of the moderators or their favorite posters, and certainly no posting anything controversial or passionate unless you're a moderator or have an opinion that agrees with them. Nothing but harmonious consensus.
Seriously, how did Gray's opinion differ all that much from the proponents of the Wall? But it's allowable, and a moderator even endorsed him for it. Gray wasn't trying to reach consensus, he was just posting the same things that the proponents have done.
So yeah, message received.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 15:33:51
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Oh, jeez, get over yourself. I've been saying for everyone to stop repeating themselves. That's what was going on: the same people were making the same posts, over and over again, and that was going nowhere. I don't care if someone agrees with me or not, I just want to see a discussion that evolves, not one that stagnates. When people ignore information put forth by others just so they can restate their own opinion for the nth time, that is not a discussion.
Gray had not participated in this discussion before, so he's not repeating himself as some others are. And he brought up at least one new point that others had not. That is the kind of thing that moves a discussion forward.
All I'm asking is that people stop repeating themselves. And now, thank you, you've got me repeating myself in a probably vain attempt to get discussion to actually go somewhere. The message you're receiving is not one that's even been implied. Other than saying I agree with Gray, I dropped out of this circular debate a couple of days ago.
I don't care what your opinion is, so long as you do something other than continuously repeat it without any regard to what anyone else says. And I've come down on people for doing that in other threads, even when I agreed with them -- such as when people go out of their way to bash 4E when someone wants to discuss some aspect of it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Feb 2011 15:38:38 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 17:04:48
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Well. I think Mr. Richardson summed it up quite well.
The meat of the disagreement remains that some people, Mr. Stormedge specificially, don't believe that anyone has the right to force service from others. Now, we could debate over whether the relationship between mortals and the gods is slavery or whether it is paid service(you do get that shiney afterlife in return), but it still comes down to "rights".
My personal religious beliefs aside, I think that within the context of the realms gods do have the right to demand service of mortals. I'll admit that its unlikely I'll be swayed from that opinion, just as it is unlikely I'll sway Mr. Stormedge. So this is the point I think we'll have to agree to disagree on. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 00:48:07
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Let me be a new person voicing the same opinion...
One problem I have with the wall of the faithless is that the gods of Faerun aren't necessarily worth worshiping. I could definitely see someone longing for God, instead of gods. The gods of the forgotten realms are really little more than powerful, yet incomplete, people. They have immense power by human standards, but their powers are clearly limited and mortals have seen those limits in the form of the Time of Troubles and various deicides just over the last few hundred years. Coupled with that are the limits imposed by their portfolios. A person can be a dictator, a music lover, dabble in bioweapons, be a devoted father, love torture and long walks on the beach, all the while being stark raving mad. But the gods don't have that sort of flexibility or completeness to them. When Midnight and Cyric were raised to godhood, they gained a lot of power, but they lost a lot too.
So I guess I could see the guy longing to fill the "god shaped hole" in his soul and being unsatisfied with what the Faerunian gods have to offer. I could also see those same gods being affronted by his feelings and leaving him to be crushed in the wall.
And then there are all those megalomaniac mages out there who won't bow to anybody. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 01:37:01
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The Faerunian pantheon does NOT encompass the entire world, nor the entirety of Faerun for that matter. Just look at the map in the front of Faiths & Avatars (IIRC).
The Underdark is split amongst several deities (including a couple who are also part of the Faerunian group), and Maztica and Zakhara have their own gods and afterlife. The Kara-Turrans worship the Celestial Bureaucracy, for the most part, and they are judged on the Plane of Concordant opposition (The Outlands) by Yen Wang Yeh (who even appears in the adventure FRA2 Black Courser on pg.61).
The interesting thing about that is that adventure series is set in The Hordelands, which is technically split between the CB and Faerunian Pantheons (and even a bit of the Pharonic/Mulan as well). What that means is that the culture you hail from is more determinant in your afterlife and deific choices then your geographic location (unless you make a conscious decision to worship outside of your heritage). Ergo, a Shou operating in Faerun proper would still be judged by Yen Wang Yeh, UNLESS he choose a deity from a non-CB pantheon as a patron (and thus breaking tradition).
The map in the F&A book only matters if you do not make a conscious choice. I have to wonder what happens in the case of a Faerunian born somewhere in the North, who chooses not to pay lip-service to any god, and spends most of his career adventuring in the old Empires (Mulan Pantheons), and dies while on campaign in kara-Tur - where does HE end up? Will his genetics count for more then his location at death? Or will the place he spent most of life count more then either? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2011 02:40:08 |
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Arzakon
Seeker
Spain
58 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 01:52:52
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I've been reading about the Wall of the Faithless and I think I've come to think of it as "non inherently evil".
As said in FRCS (page 259, at least on spanish version), there's actually a "true" punishment for false worshippers, who are forced to perform some kind of task for all eternity; the nature of that task would be accordingly to their crime/falseness. According to the book, Kelemvor himself has a deal with demons and devils to torment those False worshippers for all eternity, as an addition to their individual punishment; therefore, living in the Fugue Plane is the true punishment. Anyway, each judgement is carried out by Kelemvor, one by one (he's a god, after all), so each false or faithless is judged individually; I think this fact lets some degree of flexibility on the overall "judgement system" as we have been discussing it. There's a "general" law, but there's no single case equal to another.
On the other hand, the "infidels" (faithless, the spanish translation is not so good sometimes :P) are forced to become part of the Wall of the Faithless, which is the main question of this post. As I've been reading the book, I noticed that the term was "dissolve" within the Wall. At this point, I think the question is to consider wether individualistic views are good over the communal ones. Compared to the False, the Faithless lose their conscience, but they're not forced to suffer for all eternity. We can't know what happen to those souls after some time, we can't know wether they could be thrown again over Faerûn in a new body without their memory, if they're supposed to wait within the wall until some kind of "judgement day"... well, I think I''ve made my point.
Furthermore, there are some cultures (one of them, truly evil, the mindflayers) which consider merging themselves in a huge "overmind" as totally normal, even desired. I think I recall somewhat similar practices within the elven societies, as the minds of the truly worthy become part of some kind of artifact to spread their knowledge to the future generations. Even the Sharn (If i'm not mistaken) were creatures made from more than one spellcaster, mainly elven spellcasters.
Would it be possible, then, to think of the Wall as some kind of overmind made from the faithless? As I said before, FRCS says the souls "dissolve" into the Wall; they're not erased. And assuming that some "good" cultures, as the elves, practice some kind of similar rituals with their most relevant people... well, there may be hope after all for those without faith :D.
As always, I'm sorry for any mistake. |
Edited by - Arzakon on 13 Feb 2011 02:23:42 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 04:35:20
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"In the immortal words of Neil Peart: if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice."
I think Gray Said it best. This seems to sum it all up quite well. And Azrakon has pointed out that mind-flayers seem to be an exception to the Wall thing in that they become part of their Elder Brains, so they don't even count, really. I'm curious about hwat happens to other races outside the normal pantheons that don't have gods of their own. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 05:05:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Dwarves, elves, drow, halflings, and gnomes all have their own pantheons, and therefore follow different paths, they are not part of the "human" afterlife.
Dragons, giants, orcs, goblinoids, humanoids all have gods and pantheons of their own. Even the illithids have a few gods and a cerebral view on life/afterlife. Most sentient creatures in the Realms have a god, even the abominations have gods. Again, they are not part of the "human" afterlife.
Of course, this isn't the be-all-end-all of worship in the Realms. Members of other races can venerate deities from among other racial pantheons. Examples in the Realmslore offer elves who worship human deities, and gnomes who worship dwarven deities. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 11:45:08
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Most aboleths end up in the wall, except their memories survive.
Fine I'll stay out from the thread.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
The fact remains that they still have the power to pretty much destroy Toril at any given time if they wish, and thus render the question of mortals worshiping them moot. The mortals on Toril would all be dead....
The gods would be dead too.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The map in the F&A book only matters if you do not make a conscious choice. I have to wonder what happens in the case of a Faerunian born somewhere in the North, who chooses not to pay lip-service to any god, and spends most of his career adventuring in the old Empires (Mulan Pantheons), and dies while on campaign in kara-Tur - where does HE end up? Will his genetics count for more then his location at death? Or will the place he spent most of life count more then either?
Supposedly Kelemvor judges all the faithless in Realmspace. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 17:59:38
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| Ao created the realms and the gods. In doing so He laid down the rules for the way things work. The gods are simply following these rules given to them by their creator. Like it or lump it, it's all down to Ao. To apply our morality to a completely different world is incorrect and (get this!) morally wrong. |
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Tarrok of Halruaa
Acolyte
United Kingdom
37 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 18:07:25
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| Did Ao create the Primordials? Do they follow his rules? If the peoples of the Realms started worshiping the returned (Abeirian) Primordials, would the Primordials then become subject to Ao's rules? |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 18:58:50
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Ao according to FR wiki is overgod of gods and primordials. This implies that both are subject to the will and rules of their creator.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ao |
Edited by - Arcanus on 13 Feb 2011 19:02:47 |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 19:10:35
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Another thought. Gods need the belief of mortals else they die. If all mortals refused to worship any gods then all the gods would cease to be. As a result there would be no afterlife for anyone. Gods and mortals need each other. Simples! Tis the way Ao made it after the Time of Troubles.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 20:03:50
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I didn't need the Wiki. If Ao was able to split the world apart (into at least two pieces, AFAWK), and separate the Deities from the Primordials - so they wouldn't kill it each other and destroy the world in the process - that means he had the ability to CONTROL BOTH GROUPS, simultaneously. Thats some major feat of power right there.
BTW, someone made a point of countering someone else's point about deities desiring worship by saying Ao doesn't want it. Just to clarify - Ao is NOT a deity (he may be considered 'a god' by a much broader definition). Beings above the level of deity neither require nor desire (usually) mortal worship. Primordials are merely one such group (and Ao is obviously beyond THEM as well, power-wise).
__________________________________________ . _______________________________________
Thanks for that answer, Quale (although it leads to further problems, rather then solve anything). Faerunians 'know the rules' supposedly, about the wall, because Kelemvor is part of THEIR pantheon.
There are several other continents, MANY islands (some quite LARGE), dozens (hundreds?) of undersea nations and Underdark cultures, and an entire solar system of other planets, along with creatures living in space itself (on asteroids or just being able to survive in space). That means that at least 95% of all beings in Realmspace are unaware of Kelemvor and 'The Rules', making the whole thing preposterous. Thinking beings are being punished for not adhering to rules they are unaware of; not to mention travelers from other prime worlds - they get royally screwed if they die on Toril.
The logic just breaks down - a deity existing within a set pantheon CANNOT control affairs outside of the geographic location (and/or culture) his pantheon holds sway in. It makes no sense. I would just assume that the entire concept of pantheons having 'regions' is ludicrous, but it is canon (one more thing we can thank the silly ToT for). If it weren't for some of those rules Ao enforced after the Avatar Crisis (like no redundant portfolios), this wouldn't be such a problem.
BTW, I am enjoying this mental exercise and debate, and would please ask certain people to refrain from any further 'mud-slinging'. You are obviously highly intelligent, and it is beneath you. With very few exceptions folks have been very respectful of each others opinions, and I would like to be able to continue this discussion.
Thanks |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2011 20:07:17 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 20:51:06
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| I would assume that those from other prime worlds would still be under the rules of their own pantheon if they die on Toril, unless they convert to a Faerunian faith. Kelemvor probably sends those folks to their own world's afterlife or sends a messenger to alert their deity's servants. Assuming they don't already know. This might even be how off-world gods are introduced to Toril- through their mortal followers! (BEFORE they die, obviously.) That could explain why Faerun has so many interloper gods. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Arzakon
Seeker
Spain
58 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 21:01:44
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| Regarding Kelemvor... it may be homebrew, but as far as I know, there are gods who have many "aspects", so I assume Kelemvor may actually have other aspects of him within other pantheons. None of this has been said about him, though, but I think it's a nice way to get Kelemvor inside other pantheons without breaking the whole scheme. As with Set and Sseth, as with Shar and a chultan deity I do not recall, Kelemvor may have the "god of dead" aspect in kara-turan, maztican or zhakaran pantheons, but they may refer to him with other names. Anyway, I know little of other pantheons in Toril, so I don't know if they have their own god of dead and their own afterlife. |
Edited by - Arzakon on 13 Feb 2011 21:02:26 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 22:41:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There are several other continents, MANY islands (some quite LARGE), dozens (hundreds?) of undersea nations and Underdark cultures, and an entire solar system of other planets, along with creatures living in space itself (on asteroids or just being able to survive in space). That means that at least 95% of all beings in Realmspace are unaware of Kelemvor and 'The Rules', making the whole thing preposterous. Thinking beings are being punished for not adhering to rules they are unaware of; not to mention travelers from other prime worlds - they get royally screwed if they die on Toril.
I think Gray said this before, the Fugue is a way station, travelers from from other spheres are picked up the agents from their home pantheons, Kelemvor deals with those that nobody wants. Except probably people from Sigil make the journey on their own, a portal will open sooner or later. There is a default pantheon and the rest are interlopers (Celestial Bureaucracy, Fate etc.) who had to accept upon entering the sphere that the souls that reject them stay in the Fugue. So probably the knowledge about the faithless is spread in these religions as it is in Faerun. Also notice how a lot of the pantheons are infiltrated (e.g. Selan in Zakhara, Eshowdow in Chult, Hoar, Sharess, Cyric in Guge? Talos-Gruumsh...) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 00:56:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarrok of Halruaa
Did Ao create the Primordials? Do they follow his rules? If the peoples of the Realms started worshiping the returned (Abeirian) Primordials, would the Primordials then become subject to Ao's rules?
Given that the Primordials arose from the "misty realm of timeless nothingness, crafted by Ao the Hidden One ... "-- as noted in the FRCG -- I'd say they were indeed a creation of the Creator God. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 01:22:39
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| One question; am I supposed to feel sympathy for aboleths, creatures of unknowable madness and evil, because they make the conscious choice not to worship gods and on the rare occassion that they die, they end up on the wall? If anything, I'd list aboleths ending up on the wall as a positive; lord knows I wouldn't want them lingering on in the afterlife, able to attain more power than they already have. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 02:52:10
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One additional point I'd like to put out there: the gods and the primordials had a war over Abeir-Toril which, in Solomonic wisdom, was split in two to appease them. The Toril half was given to the gods.
From the gods' point of view, they have every right to think of Toril as theirs--to the victor go the spoils and all. Forget whether they created the universe, Toril belongs to them by right of divine conquest. It's also probably a "legal" right, codified by divine treaty, or perhaps even enshrined among the tablets of Ao.
It only makes sense that the gods would manipulate and influence the infrastructure of the cosmos to favor their interests.
From the gods' perspective, they don't want to support any kind of nice afterlife for non-believers, for the simple reason that mortals might prefer it to the divine domains of the deities. In other words, they don't want to offer free content that is better than the paid content. The gods have strong incentive to make sure the fate of non-believers is not desirable, not necessarily cruel, but as unappealing as possible.
Conversely, gods have strong incentive to reward their own believers with a pleasing afterlife, or at least one suitable to the temperament of their followers. There has to be some contrast between the respective afterlives--or else mortals would not see the benefit of worshiping gods.
You could analyze this a number of different ways:
From a medieval, feudal perspective, the gods own the land, and the mortals who live on it owe them fealty.
From a capitalist perspective, the gods have something that mortals want (a nice afterlife) and therefore the mortals have to pay in worship in order to purchase that good.
A Darwinist might see it as a symbiotic relationship--Gods provide an afterlife, healing, spells and miracles, and mortals provide worship in exchange. In a way it's all a kind of competitive divine eco-system, with the most successful gods growing in divine rank and the least successful gods diminishing or fading away.
From a Nietzschian perspective, might makes right, and the gods can do what they want because they are stronger.
A Marxist probably sees the system in terms of exploitation.
Whether the system is unjust or not, or if that word can even apply, depends on your philosophical point of view. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 08:46:25
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From a capitalist perspective, the gods hold a monopoly over afterlife, it's like the Weave only you don't get any extra choice. I think that if there were no gods, there would still be an afterlife, the souls would go for the Astral, that kind of setting is default for the crystal spheres. Anyway, monopoly is evil  . |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 13:13:36
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Mod edit: Edited for content.  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Feb 2011 03:26:42 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 18:04:27
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| And that's enough of that. Thread locked. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Feb 2011 18:04:45 |
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Morality of the Wall of the Faithless
Topic Locked
