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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 05:57:12
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Interestingly, the story you are referring to, where Jacob loses the match, has some fascinating similarity with the actual topic under discussion.
So... what is a 'true god', then, Chosen of Asmodeus?
Because, I accept the Faerunian gods exist, regarding faerun... but I'm not sure about this second component of yours, that they are 'true gods'....
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Oh, Chosen of Asmodeus, you are refering to Jacob, in Genesis.
He lost the match, btw...
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Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 11 Feb 2011 05:59:15 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 06:08:24
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"True gods" is something without a universal real world definition. It is, within the context of fiction, whatever an author or creator deems to qualify as a true god within the context of their story. Marvel comics, for instance, contains the norse and greek gods, and beings that are not "gods" but rival and even surpass them in power. Power isn't the deciding factor, though; in that context, being a god is something akin to a species.
What rights a "true god" does and doesn't have are also up in the air regarding the context of a given world. The creators of the God of War series didn't believe that the gods should have the right to do as the wanted with mortals and made a game about killing them. Personally I'm fine with the idea of a setting where mortals are explicitly inferior to their gods and are at their mercy. This doesn't reflect my personal moral or religious views, but within the context of a fictional setting I don't have a problem with it. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 06:12:06
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And in the Forgotten Realms, mortals 'rising up' and slaying the gods, 'casting them down', is a recurring theme. In effect, a precedent for this form of species-ism is can be rejected, by canon.
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
"True gods" is something without a universal real world definition. It is, within the context of fiction, whatever an author or creator deems to qualify as a true god within the context of their story. Marvel comics, for instance, contains the norse and greek gods, and beings that are not "gods" but rival and even surpass them in power. Power isn't the deciding factor, though; in that context, being a god is something akin to a species.
What rights a "true god" does and doesn't have are also up in the air regarding the context of a given world. The creators of the God of War series didn't believe that the gods should have the right to do as the wanted with mortals and made a game about killing them. Personally I'm fine with the idea of a setting where mortals are explicitly inferior to their gods and are at their mercy. This doesn't reflect my personal moral or religious views, but within the context of a fictional setting I don't have a problem with it.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 06:20:26
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And they are consistantly shown to have to hold to a certain set of rules regarding mortals, which includes the wall staying where it is.
Going back to one of your earlier posts that points out that everyone in Faerun knows that the wall is waiting for them should they reject the gods, I have to agree with the earlier posters calling it the wall of the stupid; these people, excluding those who sought immortality and failed to attain it, knowingly and actively chose the wall over the deities. Under those circumstances, the good deities are respecting the choice and free will of these mortals who decided melting into a wall for a few hundred years was a better fate than Celestia. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 06:25:12
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Another thing regarding the gods and their moral standard; a while back in a thread asking about the ending of Elminster Must Die, The Hooded One posted a response clearing it up, from Ed, that included a statement that I'lll paraphrase as closely as I can remember; "Elminster reuniting with Mystra; a chosen reuniting with his goddess, is more important than the lives of everyone in Cormyr."
Apologies to Ed and THO if I misquoted or missed the point, but that statement does seem to imply that if nothing else, the universal standard of morality that governs the gods is different from that which mortals hold as their standard.(I doubt the average Cormyr citizen would agree with the sentiement, anyway). |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 06:41:55
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There is a universal morality? There is also a moral standard that mortals agree upon? Both of these assumptions are debated by philosophers.
Our society routinely destroys entire populations of livestock whenever certain diseases are detected (or even just suspected), because we don't want to risk being sickened by eating contaminated food. Sacrificing all of Cormyr to save a goddess is either justified or an atrocity, depending on viewpoint ... of course, the gods call the shots.
I suspect that "quote" is not really meant to suggest that Cormyr is in danger of being nuked; just an hyperbole meant to underscore the importance of the statement. Then again, you can never be sure if that's the way insane Elminster-blaster feels ... |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Feb 2011 06:43:45 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 06:45:35
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In terms of dungeons and dragons, Good and Evil are universal forces; morality can still be subjective, yes, but there is a universal standard even if mortals aren't all priviy to it.
And in regards to the quote, no, it wasn't in reference to the kingdom about to go boom; it was in reference to a single life that may or may not have been in danger, saying that El reuniting and restoring Mystra was more important than her life, going onto say that it would have been worth the lives of the whole kingdom. I'd look the thread up, but using a ps3 I couldn't quote it anyway. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 07:18:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
And they are consistently shown to have to hold to a certain set of rules regarding mortals, which includes the wall staying where it is.
Going back to one of your earlier posts that points out that everyone in Faerun knows that the wall is waiting for them should they reject the gods, I have to agree with the earlier posters calling it the wall of the stupid; these people, excluding those who sought immortality and failed to attain it, knowingly and actively chose the wall over the deities. Under those circumstances, the good deities are respecting the choice and free will of these mortals who decided melting into a wall for a few hundred years was a better fate than Celestia.
CoA, I think you have hit upon it perfectly! This is basically what I've been saying all along- the "good" gods are not evil for their inaction regarding the Wall, they are respecting the RIGHT of the Faithless to CHOOSE the Wall over them. They could, of course, carry them off to their own realms regardless of the souls' wishes, but that would make them no better than the evil gods, who would not hesitate to do so if they could get away with it.
Also, I'd like to point out that although Erdrick is TECHNICALLY right about deities collecting the souls of their worshipers, they also give the souls without a deity and who follow their basic tenets (even if it's unknowingly) the chance to accept them as well before letting them take their chances with the fiends or the Wall. So it's not as if that ranger is doomed just because he never ACTIVELY worshiped Mielikki. He's still considered worthy of being given a place in her realm, IF HE CHOOSES it. If not- well, there's a half-dozen other gods lined up with similar offers. The biggest question to me is- which one would said ranger be most likely to take up? And if he spurns them all, then he probably never truly followed the ideals of a ranger in the first place, and is a hypocrite who deserves whatever punishment he brought on himself for that attitude.
Regarding "true gods" and morality, there is really no way of judging a Power whose motives and nature one can only guess at. (Note- Ed himself has pointed that out time and again!) For one thing, gods are born(made) and die much differently than mortals, they gain or loose portfolios, and generally deal in concepts and abilities and complex relationships that mortals could never begin to comprehend. What Torm calls "good" may not be the same thing as what a mere human would. His concept of good is probably a lot more abstract than anything a mortal can articulate or comprehend.
"Might makes right" may not be an accepted moral standard for mortals, but one should also consider that mortals are by definition under the gods' authority, by virtue of being part of THEIR CREATION. Yes, that's right. They MADE Faerun, and they could just as easily UN-make it. Now here's the kicker, that basically means that mortals are expected to bow to their AUTHORITY in matters spiritual, and to follow the rules they lay out for them as caretakers/lords/pick your term. Not to start any RW religious debates, but hey, since the Bible's been brought up- we all remember the Ten Commandments, right? The laws that (our) god expects us to OBEY?? Well, it would not be too far-fetched to assume(believe) that Faerun has a few universal laws, too. One of which may very well be the punishment of those souls who can't be bothered to choose a deity. Note that I'm talking about laws agreed to by ALL the gods, which all are bound to uphold. (And I'm thinking that may have been part of what was on the Tablets of Fate....)
As a side-note, I'm wondering what would even drive a soul to refuse all other options, knowing the consequences. Spiritual suicide? Because that's really what we are talking about here. It makes no sense for a soul to WANT to obliterate itself that way, especially after it has arrived in the afterlife. A nihilist who simply believes that nothing is real and the gods don't exist I might understand- although they would have to be absolutely barmy to believe that, considering all the evidence to the contrary. So why WOULD a soul choose oblivion?! No one seems able to give a reasonable explanation for why one would do so. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 07:30:30
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| I've known people who's characters chose the wall over the gods out of spite. Those were some rather dedicated athiests, right there. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 11:11:51
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| I would say two things. First it is not, I think, a good idea to apply real-(First)world 21st Century morality to a fantasy setting. Second, Ed has repeatedly said that nothing about the Gods of the Realms can be taken as true. The Gods can and have deceived, misdirected and outright lied to their worshippers. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 13:27:21
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''True god'' is goodness and perfection, it does not want to be worshipped. Is it so hard to believe that some people in FR consider gods flawed and unfair, particularly when they hear about the wall.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
@ Quale: You think there are only two choices? I'll go with Wooly on that count.
In the context of the Wall there's two options, to be in it or not. There's no reincarnation, an option to turn into an unique outsider shaped by personal beliefs. I agree that those that believe in nothing should turn to nothing, but not all faithless have that beliefs. E.g. the Netherese there believe in magical power, but don't see Mystra as their superior, even have Karsus as a proof of near endless possibilities.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
But it's THEIR choice.
It's never their choice alone, and not just their fault, everything is influenced by everything, at least ''gods'' should understand that.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Merging with a god is NOT the same as being utterly obliterated, either. In the first, they are seen to achieve "oneness" with their deity, or "being fully embraced" by the god in question. The ultimate union with the divine, as it were. What is so bad about that?
They earn their fate because they HAVE no belief in ANYTHING! (Sort of like being a complete nihilist, which is sort of ridiculous in the Realms, with all the gods VISIBLY walking around...) These are souls who can't even be convinced of their own existence!!!
First it's questionable whether ''ultimate'' is the right word to describe such a union. But in the end the result is the same, one soul ceases to be, the other is drowned in an ocean of souls, loses its self-awareness.
Look at a few of the Planescape factions, some of the Athar believe in the Great Unknown, each has an unique opinion of what that is, but all believe in a power greater than D&D gods, and there are a few mentions of DvR 21+ powers, should these people be stuck in a wall? What about the Dustmen? What about the souls from Ra-khati (Buddhists)? What if they follow an acosmic philosophy?
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
HOWEVER- you ask where the Archons are, and the simple answer to that is that THEY are the ones collecting the souls for their patron gods
Most archons don't serve any gods, they have their own philosophy. At least in the Great Wheel.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
So the soul looses it's identity? I don't entirely believe that, as the Planescape set was literally FULL of petitioners and proxies ...
It's all in On Hallowed Ground, proxies are a different matter. First thing that happens to the petitioners is that their memory is gone and they turn into a near-zombies.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Also, although gods die, they still have godly essence on the Astral, and can even be revived, so obviously that argument isn't really relevant. The souls that have become part of them (or their domains) are still there, at least to some degree. Which would indicate that yes there IS an eternity.
Astral husks are more like phylacteries, all you have to do is get past Anubis. Even the multiverse is not eternal.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
As for the negative energy plane, let's keep in mind that souls are formed of positive energy. This is why positive energy destroys undead- because they are the exact opposite of life energy, which is really what a soul is. For the same reason, negative energy DRAINS life and can destroy a mortal's soul (life-draining of some higher undead). So even if the Wall is a conduit to the Neg Energy plane, the soul is still obliterated.
That's what I'm saying, they don't merge with the Fugue. Negative energy plane is not evil, it's a part of the cycle of souls. Also souls don't damage undead (e.g. liches, demiliches).
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
They had an entire LIFETIME to decide what they believed in. Then they get a SECOND CHANCE after they die!! What more do you NEED?!
You're saying they had a lifetime to accept the tyranny, lol.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
That's like saying they should just be allowed to continue to wander aimlessly for eternity, taking up space in the planes, not contributing to anything or serving any purpose whatsoever.
You're saying only by serving gods you can contribute or have a purpose? Taking up space? How much space there is in the planes?
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
"Might makes right" may not be an accepted moral standard for mortals, but one should also consider that mortals are by definition under the gods' authority, by virtue of being part of THEIR CREATION. Yes, that's right. They MADE Faerun, and they could just as easily UN-make it. Now here's the kicker, that basically means that mortals are expected to bow to their AUTHORITY in matters spiritual, and to follow the rules they lay out for them as caretakers/lords/pick your term.
It could be that the mortals made gods, out of their collective imagination. At least in On Hallowed Ground the decision about who was first, mortals or gods, is left to the DM. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 15:18:50
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Well, I only refer to it as the 'Wall of the stupid' because in FR, it IS the way things work, like it or not (I don't use the wall - I am talking canonically here).
If you are born on a world where the gods and afterlife are a fact, and everyone knows it, and you choose not to follow any of them - knowing full-well about the wall - then you are a complete and utter moron.
YES, you can argue about free will until you are blue in the face. I often argue that Americans do NOT have to pay taxes (technically, they are supposed to be voluntary). Both arguments are great until you are slapped with the consequences, which you cannot avoid.
So stick to your guns, but your obstinance will not impress anyone, and your fate will be sealed. Your convictions are meaningless in the face of D&D cosmological mechanics.
BTW, not talking about any real-world person here - I am talking about characters in-game, so please do not be offended. I understand the arguments against the wall, and that is why I will not use it. I am just talking about this from the PoV of someone living in the Realms and ignoring 'the rules'. Seriously, if I lived there, I would probably pick Sharess just for the non-stop party later on (despite my not wishing to follow her in my day-to-day life). Eternity with Lathander (or Ilmater!) sounds rather dull. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Feb 2011 15:19:10 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 15:27:50
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| You know what? This discussion is going in circles, with neither side giving an inch. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree, and leave it at that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 15:43:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You know what? This discussion is going in circles, with neither side giving an inch. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree, and leave it at that.
I'd also add that we can do without the continued reference to real-world religious practices as well. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 17:09:18
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Sorry about that, I was just trying to make a point in terms of "basic rules of faith." And to be honest, I'm wondering why there is even any reason to debate the question. Saying they are accepting tyranny assumes that the gods are tyrants. They are NOT. (Well, except maybe for Bane, lol!!) Few of them ever SAY "worship me or else!" and those who do are all evil. I noticed that no one has even answered my question above. "What would even drive a soul to refuse all other options, knowing the consequences? Spiritual suicide? Because that's really what we are talking about here. It makes no sense for a soul to WANT to obliterate itself that way, especially after it has arrived in the afterlife. A nihilist who simply believes that nothing is real and the gods don't exist I might understand- although they would have to be absolutely barmy to believe that, considering all the evidence to the contrary. So why WOULD a soul choose oblivion?! No one seems able to give a reasonable explanation for why one would do so."
I think anyone who refutes the gods out of spite is only really hurting themselves, especially knowing the consequences. The gods don't particularly care about the fate of a single soul out of thousands or millions. They will just seek their followers elsewhere, among those who accept that they exist and have authority. So the soul who decides to reject all other options has no one to blame for his situation but himself, and is not even accomplishing his aim of spiting the gods. I fully agree with MT's sentiments on the subject. (Wow, how often does that happen?) The idea of a "true god" not wanting to be worshiped is utter tripe, IMO. I've never YET seen a case either in fictional setting or RL of a god who didn't. If they didn't want to be worshiped, no one would even know they exist, and there would be no faith of that deity in the first place. (Kinda hard to have a "god" that no one knows about.... Can you even call it a god?)
If it's not their choice alone, or their fault, whose is it? Not the gods- they didn't hold a crossbow to the person's head. they gave all souls the will to make their own way, and decide what they feel is important to them. And there obviously IS reincarnation, since priests and druids can use the spell for it, and most gods can probably grant it, too. but it probably only happens in special cases- ie, those children who were too young to choose, or whatever, as mentioned earlier. And the option to become an outsider is there, too, via fiends, and probably good-aligned planars would offer this as well, as an incentive. What is good for the goose....
Planescape factions all have their own philosohpies, true, but most of them STILL have a patron deity or at least a basic belief in the gods as superior and divine beings, and if one lives in Sigil, seeing gods and planar servants literally walking past your front door, you'd have to be a fool to not think that maybe these Powers are real. And if they loose their memories, how would they even know which god to choose? They must retain some of their former personality and identity, or it would be pointless for the gods to even give them a choice. How would they be able to make one at all if they are little more than "zombies"? (BTW, that story in Realms of the Elves kind of disputes this, as the end of it showed the elf and the drow child holding hands and walking to the gates together- and he remembered why they were there. He had made the choice to spare the child, and he paid for it with his own life-and REMEMBERED it.)
Planescpae leaves the chicken and egg question up in the air, but then one has to ask where those first mortals came from. Who or what created them if they created the gods? Toril cosmology even acknowledges that Sylune and Shar and Chauntea (to name a few) were around long before they had mortals to worship them. Ao was around even before that, apparently. So then who created THEM? That's a circular question, which is pointless. The fact remains that they still have the power to pretty much destroy Toril at any given time if they wish, and thus render the question of mortals worshiping them moot. The mortals on Toril would all be dead.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 17:10:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You know what? This discussion is going in circles, with neither side giving an inch. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree, and leave it at that.
I'd also add that we can do without the continued reference to real-world religious practices as well.
I'm going to agree with the mods on this one. The discussion is veering a little to close to personal religious beliefs for my own comfort. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 17:26:04
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Proponents of the Wall seem to be making some rather gigantic assumptions:
- that everyone, on the entire planet, knows the "rules" of the Wall, therefore it's a choice.
- that "free choice" is actually free, and not determined by the social structure and mores of where you were raised.
- that sheer impertinence and spite are the only reasons why one would possibly end up in the Wall.
- that somehow, being young or an infant gives one a special golden ticket to bypass the Wall.
- that general belief in (or worship of) many gods (i.e. polytheism) means everyone must have a Patron Deity, even if they really don't.
- that the "rule" of having a Patron Deity (to escape the Wall) is somehow broad, when it actually has a clear definition.
Do ALL the people of Kara-Tur or Zakhara know the "rules" of the (Western) deities?
What of those who grow up in rural areas, certain parts of the Underdark, etc. and are ignorant of the "rules" of Western deities because there aren't any (Western) priests who hold services?
For an ignorant child without knowledge or training, who petitions for them when they die?
What of those in eastern Faerun who follow a spiritual path that does not include worship the gods, or having a Patron Deity? Are they worthy of severe punishment and oblivion?
Prior to the spellplague, did every soul from Abeir somehow end up in the Wall, even though they've had millenia of not knowing any gods? How likely are the transposed Abeirrans now in Faerun going to know about or even believe these new (Western) traditions and rules?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 11 Feb 2011 17:29:07 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 17:28:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Proponents of the Wall seem to be making some rather gigantic assumptions:
- that everyone, on the entire planet, knows the "rules" of the Wall, therefore it's a choice.
As a point, that was someone arguing against the wall who made that claim, complete with citations to back it up. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
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Edited by - Chosen of Asmodeus on 11 Feb 2011 17:29:05 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 17:41:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Proponents of the Wall seem to be making some rather gigantic assumptions:
- that everyone, on the entire planet, knows the "rules" of the Wall, therefore it's a choice.
As a point, that was someone arguing against the wall who made that claim, complete with citations to back it up.
If you're referring to this:
quote:
"Everyone in Faerun knows that those who die without a patron deity to send a servant to collect them from the Fugue Plane at their death spend eternity writhing in the Wall of the Faithless or disappear into the hells of the devils or the infernos of the demons."
-FRCS pg. 232
Then does this apply to Kara-Tur, or Zakhara, or even the Underdark realms? Does "Faerun" refer to the whole planet, or merely to the western subcontinent?
If you are promoting the idea that everyone, everywhere on the planet knows of these "rules" then how exactly do they learn of them in their respective cultures? |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 17:55:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Sorry about that, I was just trying to make a point in terms of "basic rules of faith." And to be honest, I'm wondering why there is even any reason to debate the question. Saying they are accepting tyranny assumes that the gods are tyrants. They are NOT. (Well, except maybe for Bane, lol!!) Few of them ever SAY "worship me or else!" and those who do are all evil.
All of the deities say, "worship me or else". Everyone in Faerun knows that to fail to worship a Power means obliteration via supernatural mold. This is a pantheistic rule: worship a power or be obliterated. You will note that I have provided canon evidence to support this.
The reason this is being debated (besides enjoyment) is that it is assumed in philosophical doctrine that morals should exhibit universality. In logic, also known as the consideration of valid arguments, a proposition is said to have universality if it can be conceived as being true in all possible contexts without creating a contradiction.
If you believe that those deities who command mortals to worship them or else are 'evil', then all the deities are evil. While this is a logical conclusion, I am certain it is not one you will support.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I noticed that no one has even answered my question above. "What would even drive a soul to refuse all other options, knowing the consequences? {snip} No one seems able to give a reasonable explanation for why one would do so."
Allow me to answer you question. The Powers of Faerun are extremely powerful beings. They have no right, however, to take the life of, force the service of, or obliterate the being of, another sentient being. The Powers of Faerun did not 'create' mortals. The Creator races did. But even if they *had* created mortals, that does not give them the right to destroy their creation.
Mortals have the ability to create life, as well. Is it moral then for a woman to kill her new-born daughter?
It is not moral to do so.
If a wizard creates form from nothing, and then infuses this form with sentience, is it moral to slay this newly created, sentient being on a whim? Or for failing to worship the wizard?
No, it would be immoral to do so.
Why, then, would a mortal refuse to worship a Power? Simple; no being has the 'right' to require service from another. To require service under pain of torture/obliteration is evil. Just because one being is more powerful than another does not mean it can require supplication from those weaker than it. A mortal who refuses to worship a Power is simply refusing to be coerced into action they do not wish.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I think anyone who refutes the gods out of spite is only really hurting themselves, especially knowing the consequences. The gods don't particularly care about the fate of a single soul out of thousands or millions. They will just seek their followers elsewhere, among those who accept that they exist and have authority.
The Powers are holding a metaphoric arquebus to the heads of all mortals: Do as we say, WORSHIP one of us, or be obliterated. To refuse to be held hostage by a Power is not being 'spiteful', it is asserting their own will. If another being, a more powerful one, was holding an arquebus to *your* head, and required WORSHIP and supplication from *you*, under penalty of death, is it 'spiteful' to refuse this beings demands?
No, it is not.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
So the soul who decides to reject all other options has no one to blame for his situation but himself, and is not even accomplishing his aim of spiting the gods.
The soul is not attempting to spite the gods any more than the hostage is spiting a hostage-taker. However, both the mortal soul and the hostage will fave consequences for their choice; the Power or hostage-taker who then obliterates/murders the soul/hostage is committing an act of evil, however, by committing obliteration/murder.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I fully agree with MT's sentiments on the subject. (Wow, how often does that happen?) The idea of a "true god" not wanting to be worshiped is utter tripe, IMO. I've never YET seen a case either in fictional setting or RL of a god who didn't.
Are you familiar with Ao, by any chance?
/endsnark
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
If it's not their choice alone, or their fault, whose is it? Not the gods- they didn't hold a crossbow to the person's head.
Crossbow, arquebus, Wall of Obliterating Supernatural Mold... pick you poison, the result is the same.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
and if one lives in Sigil, seeing gods and planar servants literally walking past your front door, you'd have to be a fool to not think that maybe these Powers are real.
There is no denying that the Powers are real; all mortals on Faerun know of there existence (this is canon). Just because they are REAL and POWERFUL does not give them the right to obliterate those who refuse to WORSHIP them.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And if they loose their memories, how would they even know which god to choose? They must retain some of their former personality and identity, or it would be pointless for the gods to even give them a choice. How would they be able to make one at all if they are little more than "zombies"? (BTW, that story in Realms of the Elves kind of disputes this, as the end of it showed the elf and the drow child holding hands and walking to the gates together- and he remembered why they were there. He had made the choice to spare the child, and he paid for it with his own life-and REMEMBERED it.)
Petitioners lose all memories of their former lives. This is canon. Those on the Fugue, who are yet to become petitioners, do remember their former lives, but they forget their lives over time. It is called The FUGUE Plane for a reason.
I am certain that you will disagree with the points I have made above, although they are consistent with logical rigor and canon. I only reply in this capacity because you asked why your question was not answered. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 18:03:47
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I'm not an expert on Kara-Tur(doesn't even exist in my campaign) or Zakhara. As for the Underdark, they're largely bound by the same gods as the rest of Fauerun.
Regarding some of your other pointts; it was repeatedly noted that Ed has explicitly stated that children go to their parent's patron's realm. If their parents don't have a patron, I'll play the world's smallest violin for them while they're being stuck on the wall.
I never claimed that spite was the only reason people chose against worship. I noted that I have known people who have played characters who chose the wall out of spite because in real life, they are hard core atheists. In fact I've actually argued that lack of belief even within the context of a fantasy setting can be reasonable.
Its also established in multiple sources that while most common people in the realms do pray to multiple gods(they'll pray to Torm for protection, Tempus when they march to war, and Chauntea for a good harvest), they generally select a patron they personally identify with. That's not us asserting that is what polytheism means, that's the sourcebooks explaining the religious practices of people in the realms. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 18:25:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm not an expert on Kara-Tur(doesn't even exist in my campaign) or Zakhara.
That's fine, but aren't we talking about the canon Realms and not individual campaigns? I mean, my own Realms diverges in more ways than I can count, but it's not my Realms we are talking about either.
quote:
As for the Underdark, they're largely bound by the same gods as the rest of Fauerun.
Ah, so the deep gnomes, the illithid, the aboleth, they all get judged on the Fugue plane as well? Or go into the Wall?
What of the gith? The batrachi?
The problem with an "all-encompassing rule" is that it breaks down pretty quickly with a little analysis.
quote:
Regarding some of your other pointts; it was repeatedly noted that Ed has explicitly stated that children go to their parent's patron's realm. If their parents don't have a patron, I'll play the world's smallest violin for them while they're being stuck on the wall.
If Ed says something that is directly contradicted by canon, then canon wins. Canon states clearly that to avoid the Wall one must have a Patron Deity -and- they must have worshipped that deity. Petitioners on the Fugue Plane are recognized by the fact that they have a patron, not because their cousin or parent may have worshipped a particular deity as a patron.
quote:
I never claimed that spite was the only reason people chose against worship. I noted that I have known people who have played characters who chose the wall out of spite because in real life, they are hard core atheists. In fact I've actually argued that lack of belief even within the context of a fantasy setting can be reasonable.
I agree, some PCs and NPCs can have very valid reasons for not worshipping any deity.
quote:
Its also established in multiple sources that while most common people in the realms do pray to multiple gods(they'll pray to Torm for protection, Tempus when they march to war, and Chauntea for a good harvest), they generally select a patron they personally identify with. That's not us asserting that is what polytheism means, that's the sourcebooks explaining the religious practices of people in the realms.
Having a deity that you feel "a little closer to" isn't the same as having a Patron Deity.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 18:53:23
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Okay, I'm going to say this a little more firmly this time: this is going nowhere. People are just rehasing the same arguments over and over, with neither side giving an inch.
I'm ready to lock this thread, but I'm holding out some (perhaps vain) hope that we can get something other than the same posts from the same people -- even if only an agreement to disagree. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 19:59:24
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Scribe Rupert, why may not myself and those scribes who *are* enjoying this conversation not continue to do so?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, I'm going to say this a little more firmly this time: this is going nowhere. People are just rehasing the same arguments over and over, with neither side giving an inch.
I'm ready to lock this thread, but I'm holding out some (perhaps vain) hope that we can get something other than the same posts from the same people -- even if only an agreement to disagree.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 20:05:51
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| I apologies, Wooly. I'm augmentative by nature. I would be willing to agree to disagree. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 20:06:59
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| I apologies, Wooly. I'm augmentative by nature. I would be willing to agree to disagree. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 20:23:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
The problem with an "all-encompassing rule" is that it breaks down pretty quickly with a little analysis.
Therise, can you provide this analysis? By canon, all Faerunians know about the Wall, and the requirements of Patronage.
However, this only applies to human and humanoids.
Of note, I think, the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting refers to Kara-tur and Zak-hara as "beyond Faerun", though they are on the super-continent.
The, I believe, 3e Players guide to Faerun may offer some evidence to suggest this strange demarcation. It indicates that the Weave is local to Faerun, but is separate from Zakhara and Kara-tur... but I apologize, I cannot find a page number to corroborate that. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 20:35:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Scribe Rupert, why may not myself and those scribes who *are* enjoying this conversation not continue to do so?
Parroting the same points over and over is not a conversation. People are not budging from their positions, just repeating them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 22:33:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, I'm going to say this a little more firmly this time: this is going nowhere. People are just rehasing the same arguments over and over, with neither side giving an inch.
I'm ready to lock this thread, but I'm holding out some (perhaps vain) hope that we can get something other than the same posts from the same people -- even if only an agreement to disagree.
Oh c'mon, it's not like people are fighting. It's not even really a heated discussion IMO. Why lock a thread just because it looks like it's a little passionate and interesting?
I mean, honestly, I don't actually care what happens in the canon game world but it is pretty interesting to chat about. If I wanted to just "agree to disagree" on everything, then why post anything at all?
But meh, fine... I'll agree to disagree. Discussion terminated on my end.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 22:41:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, I'm going to say this a little more firmly this time: this is going nowhere. People are just rehasing the same arguments over and over, with neither side giving an inch.
I'm ready to lock this thread, but I'm holding out some (perhaps vain) hope that we can get something other than the same posts from the same people -- even if only an agreement to disagree.
Oh c'mon, it's not like people are fighting. It's not even really a heated discussion IMO. Why lock a thread just because it looks like it's a little passionate and interesting?
I mean, honestly, I don't actually care what happens in the canon game world but it is pretty interesting to chat about. If I wanted to just "agree to disagree" on everything, then why post anything at all?
But meh, fine... I'll agree to disagree. Discussion terminated on my end.
I'm just saying that with everyone repeating the same stuff, the discussion is doing nothing but going around in circles. I wouldn't care if people were coming to some sort of consensus, instead of just shouting "Yes!"/"No!" at each other all day long. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Morality of the Wall of the Faithless
Topic Locked
