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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 01:20:40
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What is the question that you are trying to answer logically, Therise?
Is the question you are trying to surmise, logically, "Is it possible for a person in the modern age to name an individual who lived over 1000 years ago?"
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Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
Like I said, they probably wouldn't worship him. As for out of sight, out of mind, that really depends. I assume the other citizens of Shade are taught some type of history which heavily favors their once mighty empire. I have to assume that it includes mentions of Karsus. I don't know if they would hold him up as one of the pinnacles of their power, or their greatest fool, but I would find it quite odd if they don't talk about him. For all we know Telamont makes it a point to keep him in the memory of his people due to his help "back in the day". They also had to get the Karse Stone to get back to the Prime Material plane and they had it for a while. I am sure that kept him in their thoughts for quite a while since the stone is named after him. I know there are vast educational differences between our world and the Realms, but with people being people those in the know will remember the name of someone who directly challenged a god and brought down his own empire (an empire people definitely do know about). I doubt his name comes up in water cooler type conversations, but how many important historical figures in our world pop up in those types of conversations with any real frequency, despite numerous people knowing their names and something about them?
For the sake of logic, rather than wishful thinking, let's consider a real-world example. Let's start with Nikola Tesla (1856-1943), who originally came up with innovations in electromagnetism that were important foundations for modern electrical systems, robotics, remote control, radar and computer science.
Even with our massive educational system in place, which the Realms doesn't have, you'd be hard-pressed to find a regular Joe who has even heard of him. Sometimes, even scientists don't know Tesla or his contributions to science. And we're talking less than 100 years ago.
Let's go back to the year 1000. Find me someone who knows what major world events happened, much less the names of important individuals. With modern education, how many people know who Pope Benedict VIII or Henry II might be? We can look to historians that have specialized on knowing those periods, and perhaps even a scattered few citizens of the UK might know, but that's about it.
Even when things are important to a person's home country, they often don't know names or details of any significance. Most people can't name their own ancestors going back more than a few generations.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 01:21:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Alashar is mentioned by name in the "Twilight War" series.
Which I'm certain gives plenty of latitude for Scribes to surmise that Rivalen slew a *different* Alashar.
There's no reason to be rude. Gees.
But my mistake, I never read that series. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 01:29:27
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Nae good saer! Peace! I meant no offense; I only remark that when it comes to the 'Realms, 'tis easy to take a thing such as this and add ones own 'Clack'...eh?
In the Realms, a sourcebook could say, "All unicorn have horns," and indeed one could find a scribe who would'st state,
"Nae, the book dost nae say 'Keruth, Unicorn Lord of Unthwood' has a horn, so we can'nae surmise that, aye, Keruth has a horn.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Alashar is mentioned by name in the "Twilight War" series.
Which I'm certain gives plenty of latitude for Scribes to surmise that Rivalen slew a *different* Alashar.
There's no reason to be rude. Gees.
But my mistake, I never read that series.
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 02:22:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
Like I said, they probably wouldn't worship him. As for out of sight, out of mind, that really depends. I assume the other citizens of Shade are taught some type of history which heavily favors their once mighty empire. I have to assume that it includes mentions of Karsus. I don't know if they would hold him up as one of the pinnacles of their power, or their greatest fool, but I would find it quite odd if they don't talk about him. For all we know Telamont makes it a point to keep him in the memory of his people due to his help "back in the day". They also had to get the Karse Stone to get back to the Prime Material plane and they had it for a while. I am sure that kept him in their thoughts for quite a while since the stone is named after him. I know there are vast educational differences between our world and the Realms, but with people being people those in the know will remember the name of someone who directly challenged a god and brought down his own empire (an empire people definitely do know about). I doubt his name comes up in water cooler type conversations, but how many important historical figures in our world pop up in those types of conversations with any real frequency, despite numerous people knowing their names and something about them?
For the sake of logic, rather than wishful thinking, let's consider a real-world example. Let's start with Nikola Tesla (1856-1943), who originally came up with innovations in electromagnetism that were important foundations for modern electrical systems, robotics, remote control, radar and computer science.
Even with our massive educational system in place, which the Realms doesn't have, you'd be hard-pressed to find a regular Joe who has even heard of him. Sometimes, even scientists don't know Tesla or his contributions to science. And we're talking less than 100 years ago.
Let's go back to the year 1000. Find me someone who knows what major world events happened, much less the names of important individuals. With modern education, how many people know who Pope Benedict VIII or Henry II might be? We can look to historians that have specialized on knowing those periods, and perhaps even a scattered few citizens of the UK might know, but that's about it.
Even when things are important to a person's home country, they often don't know names or details of any significance. Most people can't name their own ancestors going back more than a few generations.
Did any of those people directly challenge a god? Did any of them have part of their stolen divinity fall to the earth as a stone that was used millenia later by people that knew him? Do we live in a world with travelling bards telling the tales of legend? His story is the stuff of legends. Why would anyone think Karsus would be an obscure figure? He's not a pope or a king, he's the equivalent of Alexander the Great or Ghengis Khan . A man who in his case literally shook the foundations of their world. His act is the kind that is remembered for a very, very long time after his death (and again, he may only be remembered as a supreme fool). A dumb as dirt peasant likely wouldn't know his name. People that dumb in this world have no idea who Alexander the Great is, but that isn't evidence that he is unknown. I don't believe everyone in the Realms knows his biography by heart or anything. I do believe that anyone who knows anything of importance about the past that lives in the Realms knows about Karsus.
As for using logic, anyone who is in a field related to his work that doesn't know about Nikola Tesla needs to educate themselves. They are a product of the worship of Edison and his apparently effective smear campaign. People who don't know about Tesla are victims of being misinformed. I don't know of anyone actively trying to cover up Karsus' history and achievements. Most people aren't rushing to take credit from someone else for bringing down their own empire.
I could be wrong. However, I find it very hard to believe that people would forget the name of the man who's act caused the death of the god of magic. The death of a god, brought about by a mortal, is a world shattering event that would be remembered for ages. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 03:05:06
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| I think an important flaw in your otherwise fine arguments, Therise, is that Candlekeep is not a place frequented by "most people". Many people want to believe in *really* *unbelievable* *strange* *things* which make Karsus seem quite mundane in comparison. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 09:11:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
And Netheril, the most powerful civilization ever? Please. Imaskar and all of the Crown War era elven nations were far superior, and its contemporaries (Eaerlann, Cormanthor, Jhaamdath, etc) were at least its equal and arguably its superior. Powerful and interesting? Yes. Most powerful? No.
It may not be the most powerful, but its "popularity," as well its denizens, both dead and alive, [Telamont, Larloch, Karsus, Ioulaum, among many others] far outstripped the others. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 12:10:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
And Netheril, the most powerful civilization ever? Please. Imaskar and all of the Crown War era elven nations were far superior, and its contemporaries (Eaerlann, Cormanthor, Jhaamdath, etc) were at least its equal and arguably its superior. Powerful and interesting? Yes. Most powerful? No.
It may not be the most powerful, but its "popularity," as well its denizens, both dead and alive, [Telamont, Larloch, Karsus, Ioulaum, among many others] far outstripped the others.
Tis' true what Dennis says. Netheril didn't reach the same scope of power as a nation (Karsus however surpassed them on an individual basis), but nevertheless, it was highly regarded as such by its citizens, and its downfall for more, shall we say, visually entertaining, which adds to the fun/popularity factor.  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 12:46:42
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| Im glad everyone Is really getting into this discussion. Karsus really is a bigger than life character that has a lot of interesting quirks. |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
— H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 13:00:46
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Just wondering....
How did Karsus view the elves? Did he respect them for teaching magic to his ancestors? Despise them for some unknown reason? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 13:32:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Just wondering....
How did Karsus view the elves? Did he respect them for teaching magic to his ancestors? Despise them for some unknown reason?
I think he may have thought very little of them, basically aknowledging that they helped his ancestors initially, but their limited view of magic's potential was a sign of weakness and that he surpassed them vastly (all in his view). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 13:53:46
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Most likely. For him, everyone else was his lesser.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 13:58:28
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Elves generally avoided Netherese (humans), especially the floating cities. The mythallars caused nausea, headaches, and interference with (magical) elven racial abilities. I suppose some lived on the ground, but again, they'd be subject to intermittent annoying/hazardous exposure to mythallars. Plus they probably withdrew from Netheril-below's ever-increasing farmlands to go hide in their woods. Elves as a society tended to have a long view on things, seeing the Netherese as being immature, arrogant, reckless, dangerous, and prone to treating magic and nature as consumable resources instead of as organic systems deserving respect. The Netherese practices of levitating mountains and controlling weather worried the elves deeply.
Once they got jumpstarted, the Netherese (humans) proudly viewed themselves as superior to everybody else, including elves. Everything they could possibly ever need could be discovered from the Nether Scrolls, even after "somebody" stole one of the two sets. The floating cities were almost exclusively populated by humans, the lands below a little less exclusively. Humans living outside of Netheril tended to be barbarians, fearful and suspicious of magic. Other humans living in places like Cormanthor were generally taught magic by the elves and so more attuned and palatable to elven sensibilities.
The Netherese arcanists exemplified Netheril's proud arrogance, and Karsus was foremost among them. He probably had no interest in elves whatsoever, beyond perhaps an idle interest in differing magical implementations. Anyone could clearly see that Netherese magic was superior and more innovative than anything the elves could manage.
I expect not very many half-elves in Netheril, since the two parent races tended to not interact on friendliest terms or more than strictly necessary. Dwarves pretty much stayed in their holes, mostly mining and forging as usual. They traded with ever-consuming Netheril, probably giving away more resources than they would have liked. Gnomes are hardly mentioned. A handful of interesting NPCs were gnomes, that's about it. Halflings seemingly didn't exist at all, at least not within the floating cities. Massive orc hordes would charge out of the mountains in great waves, then suffer from waves of determined orc-exterminating genocide, much as orcs are traditionally expected to do. Some populations of stone giants and various dragons also lived in the area, but seem to not be worth much mention. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Feb 2011 14:07:58 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 14:24:21
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Some elves had little to no problem with the Netherese. In fact, the druids and elves who once populated the city of Delia agreed with Lady Polaris's wish to elevate it. (Though, they grew "disillusioned" and soon left for more ground-based surroundings.) |
Every beginning has an end. |
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whats up with all the hype!
